The Instigator
independentprogressive
Con (against)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
cherrychocolate
Pro (for)
Winning
30 Points

Barack Obama; Pro, or Con?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,299 times Debate No: 305
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (15)

 

independentprogressive

Con

Barack Obama is completely inexperienced and lacks the REAL political backbone needed to run this country.

Barack Obama On the Issues:
-Does NOT support real Universal Healthcare.
-Says he stood up against the war in Iraq before it was popular (even though that was already the mainstream opinion of the Democratic Party at the time).
-Voted for the USAPATRIOT Act.
-Is pro-Israel.
-Voted for free trade with Guam.
-Voted FOR a border fence between US and Mexico.

Barack Obama has shown that he really doesn't stand up when we need him to, so why should progressive, labour, or socialist constituents be supporting him?
cherrychocolate

Pro

First of all, let me make something clear: I'm not pro-Obama because I necessarily think he's the best person in America for the job - but I try to be realistic about who has an actual shot at winning, and then choose from among them, because that seems like the best way to be heard. Call me a cynic, but isn't it kind of throwing a vote away to use it in favor of someone who'll never win, rather than helping the best among those who have a chance?
Moving on. Yes, Obama is experienced. But I'm not convinced experience is the best attribute for a politician to have anymore. I believe much more strongly in sound principles, and even if Obama has done some things I disagree with - primarily lending any support whatsoever to the USA PATRIOT Act - I also have an appreciation for the reality that neither party can ever get anything done by itself and Obama seems to have a spirit of compromise and reconciliation that will help get things done. Much as I'd love to be able to say that We shall never bend on this issue! the simple fact is that no matter how much you believe in it, you'll never get anything accomplished that way, and isn't a compromise better than nothing? It's a step, and one that must be followed through on with further compromises pushing the issue, but with our politically system declaring "all or nothing" is really awfully ineffective.
As a sidenote, I actually support Israel myself, and if someone would like to challenge me on that in a separate debate feel free - I can talk forever about the differences between Israel and the United States and why I'm okay with the one behaving in a manner that, if assumed by the other, would infuriate me.
But overall, Obama seems to care - as much as any politician can care - about the individual citizens of this country and doing as much for them as he can, and that alone recommends him rather highly to me.
Debate Round No. 1
independentprogressive

Con

Voting for someone based on electability in fear of "throwing your vote away" is an absolutely ridiculous concept. If we always vote for the lesser of the evils, we will never establish REAL change in this country. On compromise; if we expect politicians to compromise when they can't agree, none of them will hold firm stances for the voters to see. Barack Obama has NO experience and YES that is important. Do you honestly want the person serving the highest office in the land to not have any foreign policy experience whatsoever? Barack Obama speaks of not taking money from lobbyists (which is a lie), and supporting universal healthcare which stands up to insurance companies (which is also a lie). I don't know about you, but I don't want an inexperienced liar as president.
cherrychocolate

Pro

cherrychocolate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
independentprogressive

Con

I'm sorry, cherrychocolate, I really wish they allotted more time for a rebuttle.

Anyways, it is not right to vote for the lesser of the evils because you are nonetheless, voting for an evil.

Barack Obama has been running for president ever since he stepped his foot into the U.S. Senate. The Health Insurance Lobby money Obama takes deeply disturbs me. What is the biggest problem with healthcare today in our nation? Insurance companies. All Barack Obama's healthcare plan does is cap the price on private insurance and heavily subsidize it. I believe a single-payer system would be much more cost effective, not to mention more efficient due to decreased bureaucracy. As president, Barack would never sign H.R. 676 into law because he is too heavily indebted to private insurers.

The fact that Obama does not support gay marriage bothers me a lot, also. Sure, he advocates civil unions which would provide the same benefits, but as a homosexual I can tell you; this whole civil union has equal rights to marriage belief is completely flawed. In supreme court case Brown vs. Board of Education, Brown fought for integration, against the policy at the time "Seperate, but equal." The supreme court ruled in favor of Brown because "Seperate, but equal are inevitability unequal." Not allowing gays to marry treats them as second class citizens.

Both these matters raise serious questions about Barack Obama's political integrity.
cherrychocolate

Pro

I had wanted to apologize for not having responded in time - I really ought to have the foresight to not enter a debate when I probably won't have time to participate fully. My mistake.

But see, according to me, all politicians are evil. Sorry, call me a cynic, it's the only conclusion I can draw from watching our political system. So I'd rather vote for one I think might listen to me (not that the point is anything more than academic at this point - I can't exactly vote anyway.)

Regarding health care...I honestly have no idea what to think there. Which is strange, not to be able to decide my own opinion, but there are so many evils out there waiting to get the less fortunate and, again, I'm too cynical to believe in a healthcare system that will not either become bureaucracized or neglect individuals who fall through the wellfare cracks. So, though it's something I care about since it affects the individuals of this nation directly, a nominee's stance on healthcare is simply not a burning issue for me, since my own mind is not so resolutely made up as it is on, say, Guantanamo Bay, or the like.

Gay rights, by the way, are one of the issues I strongly believe in; and what I support is equal rights across the board as regardless of sexual orientation as of race or gender or ethnicity or anything else. It would be impossible to pass a federal law or amendment to the Constitution demanding that homosexual couples be allowed to get married - there would be an uproar from religious groups, in whose domain, after all, marriage mostly falls. What I support is an utter abolishment of the institution of marriage in connection with legal unions, and instead a civil union available to all couples regardless of sexual orientation; marriage would become up to each individual religion to determine, and would be wholly separate from civil unions. Naturally the couples joined in civil unions would enjoy the same rights as those joined in matrimony today. I don't know how much of this Obama might support, but it means that the words "civil union" don't entirely turn me off.

As for the phrase "political integrity"...don't make me laugh :)

Overall, I have to say that though I don't agree with all of Obama's policies, I also don't believe that any of the presidential nominees will follow through with their policies and promises; and what I like about Obama is that - and maybe this is worthless to anyone but me - a) when I listen to him it sounds like something different than what I've heard other nominees and candidates spitting out in years past, and b) I think he might actually win.

It's been a pleasure debating with you.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FormerNavy 9 years ago
FormerNavy
KingYosef--very insightful comment.
Posted by littleninja 9 years ago
littleninja
Obama knows what he is doing. I have met and heard him speak in person. He has my vote. He IS very educated and knows how to speak. He is defianatly a modern day Martin Luther King Jr. If you have been up on his debates and speeches, he is an amazing speaker and candidate. He has had my vote before he even decided to run for president. He knows what he is talking about, he knows how to give the American people what they want, and he knows what they want. He has a good idea of how to make America better,and I think he has hopes and dreams and ideas that can come true. I really believe that Obama has what it takes to win the 2008 elections! Obama is the best candidate for President for the United States of America!

*Tanya*
Posted by KingYosef 9 years ago
KingYosef
It is important to note Barack's Obama single attribute that differntiates him from all the other plausible canidates in a truely important way. He is not a child of the 60s. Every other canidate is using idealogy from two seperate and divided groups, The vietnam vets, and the "hippies". the basis of their beliefs is the bedrock of their presidential campaign, and those same beliefs have been dividing the country for the past 40 years. Barack Obama may be young and inexperienced, but the flaws of those truths is cancelled out by the flaws produced by the other canidates experience. Our generation will pay for the faults of our parents generation, it is time that we have a president that will not represent the vet or the flower child, but represent reason. It is time that this country realizes that the true problem lays within ourselves and our global credibilty is due to the way we compose ourselves and not due to jealous or idealistic views of other nations. It is time for a change of life experience in the oval office that better shows the makeup of the U.S. today, and that is Barack Obama's greatest asset to this country, an asset that no other presidential hopeful can claim.
Posted by FormerNavy 9 years ago
FormerNavy
One thing to consider about Obama: national security. One of my jobs in the Navy was to be an "Anti-Terrorism Officer." I can tell you that the single most effective way to avoid getting up by a suicide bomber is to not have anyone want to blow themselves up in the first place. Imagine that you are a young, frustrated man in one of these poor towns in the Middle East where Al-Queda gets most of its recruits. The recruiter is telling you what an evil country the United States is, how we hate Muslims and want to wage a repeat of the crusades. How much less likely will you be to believe him if you wake up one morning and read that the President of the United States is "Barack Hussein Obama?"
Posted by cherrychocolate 9 years ago
cherrychocolate
independentprogressive, I just had a look at your profile - and I find it deeply amusing that we don't seem to disagree a bit on anything.

I'm just a touch more cynical.

Sorry. I know that's not what this comment board is for. But seeing as how debate.org has provided no other way for me to mention this I just wanted to say it and have my laugh.
Posted by independentprogressive 9 years ago
independentprogressive
Rob, I believe you need to check your facts.

Howard Dean, now the chairman of the Democratic Party, had already spoken out against the war, more than 100 Congresspeople in the House of Representatives voted AGAINST the Iraq war.

So what if Saddam had WMD's!
He had them in the 90's during the Bush and Clinton administration and used them on his own people. So, why do we care all of the sudden now?
Posted by FormerNavy 9 years ago
FormerNavy
I'm confused. If standing up against the war was the "mainstream opinion" in 2002, why did so many Democrats vote in favor of giving the President the authority to invade Iraq?

I think you need to recheck your facts. Being anti-war in 2002 was NOT anywhere near the mainstream on either side of the aisle. It was viewed as a huge political risk, because of the fear that it would turn out that Saddam did have WMD. Obama had the judgment and courage to stand up for what he believed in the face of that risk. That judgment and integrity qualifies him to be the President.
Posted by independentprogressive 9 years ago
independentprogressive
Making it cheaper is the first step and eliminating private health insurance is the next, which is why I support HR 676.
Posted by nrw 9 years ago
nrw
REAL universal medicare?

making it mandatory is not the solution - how do you expect people who dont have medicare because they cant afford it to all of a sudden be able to pay for medicare just because its mandatory?

obama wants to make it cheaper

making is cheaper is key to it actually working
Posted by AK-47debater 9 years ago
AK-47debater
independentprogressive, you are in opposition to Israel?
What are you in opposition to?
I would love to debate you about Israel.
15 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
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