The Instigator
doctorcsss
Pro (for)
Tied
5 Points
The Contender
Oreo222
Con (against)
Tied
5 Points

Barack Obama has been a harmful president

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,231 times Debate No: 75537
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

doctorcsss

Pro

I will be arguing that Obama has been harmful to the US during his presidency (so far).

First Round: Acceptance

Second Round: Foreign Policy

Third Round: Rebuttals and introduce Domestic Policy

Fourth Round: Domestic Policy

5th Round: Rebuttals and Conclusion

(Outline is subject to change, I am fine with that, just a guide)

Lets have an intelligent debate!
Oreo222

Con

I accept and I will be arguing that Barack Obama has not been a harmful president. The only change I'd like to see is that Domestic Policy comes first before Foreign Policy. Is that alright with you?
Debate Round No. 1
doctorcsss

Pro

Ok domestic policy first.

I would like to address a couple main points, but first, let"s get the facts out there:

The total federal debt now tallies more than $18 trillion. Just six years ago when President Obama took office, total debt stood at $10.6 trillion, which means it now has increased by almost $8 trillion"roughly 70 percent"during his tenure as president.The surge in total debt, which has hit 103 percent of gross domestic product, comes at a time when politicians are championing falling deficits and claiming them as evidence that government spending is under control [1].

A record number of people are dependent on government " that includes record numbers of people on food stamps and an astonishing number of people on disability. Nearly one in seven Americans are on food stamps " that"s over 23 million households. The cost of that program has doubled under Obama. As for disability, the new welfare magnet, 11 million Americans receive assistance through that program [2].

According to the AP, "Four out of five U.S. adults struggle with joblessness, near-poverty or reliance on welfare for at least parts of their lives, a sign of deteriorating economic security and an elusive American dream." Further evidence of that is that homeownership is at a 20-year low. Our economic predicament is not an accident or a mere coincidence. Our growth rates are low because the burdens on doing business in America are at an all-time high. Keep in mind that the laws of economics do not change " at least while our DNA remains largely the same. People react just as they did in the past to incentives and to the massive disincentives of today.

These are just a few of the disturbing statistics. If you wish, I can provide plenty more, but I do not wish to bore you, so I will continue.

Besides greatly increasing government dependence and growing lack of jobs, Obama has heightened race tensions on numerous occasions. President Obama called on Americans "to do some soul searching" in the aftermath of the rioting that occurred in Baltimore. Obama offered a perfunctory condemnation of the rioters, but then, as the Washington Post reports, criticized "Americans, including the news media and some politicians, for failing to address the chronic problems of men, women and children who live in poverty and find their opportunities limited because of poor schools or long stints in prison." For Obama, "soul-searching" means granting the government more money to throw at the inner city. Real soul-searching means understanding why the men, women and children who live in poverty have limited their own opportunities by dropping out of school, using drugs, and committing crime. So rather than pointing out important facts like these, Obama decides to further the victim mindset and cause them to look on themselves even more as victims [3].

Then there is Obamacare. Sigh. Two new economic studies unpack Obamacare"s impact on the labor market.
The first, from the American Action Forum, shows that the law is reducing the pay of workers at small businesses " those with 20 to 99 employees " by at least $22.6 billion every year.
"On average, employees who work a full year for a business with 50-99 employees lose $935 annually due to ACA regulations, while employees of businesses with 20-49 employees, on average lose $827.50 annually," the study noted.
Obamacare isn"t just reducing workers" pay " it"s putting them out of work. The AAF study concludes that the law"s regulations and increased premiums are likely responsible for American employers having shed more than 350,000 jobs. California, Florida, New York, Ohio, and Texas have each lost more than 20,000 jobs, thanks to Obamacare.
Killing jobs and reducing pay is bad enough. But another report, from the American Health Policy Institute, finds that Obamacare will also shrink the labor force by reducing incentives to work.

In other words, workers are going to get squeezed from both sides. There will be less demand for them even as Obamacare makes it less financially appealing to have a job.

The AHPI report concludes that Obamacare imposes on businesses "additional costs of $4,800 to $5,900 per employee over the course of a decade." In the next ten years, the total cost of the law to American employers will be between $157 billion to $186 billion [5].

If you wish, there is more where that came from.

Then there is the staggaring amount of blatantly illegal actions taken by our dear President. IRS targeting of conservative groups and attacks on the First Amendment like when the Obama Justice Department ordered criminal investigations of FOX News reporters for doing their jobs during the 2012 election year. President Obama, throughout his Presidency, has refused to enforce long-established U.S. immigration laws. For example . . .
More than 300,000 captured illegal aliens had been processed and were awaiting deportation. But, incredibly, Obama stopped these deportations and ordered the U.S. border patrol to release many of these illegal aliens in violation of law and without explanation.
Congress rejected Obama's so called DREAM ACT " which would have granted permanent residency to many illegal aliens. So Obama enacted his own version of the DREAM ACT by Executive Order, thus directly defying Congress. According to Obama's Executive Order, illegal aliens can stay in America if they are under the age of 30, have been in America for at least five years, are enrolled in school or have graduated from high school, and have committed no felonies [6].

There are so many more illegal and un-Constitutional actions he has take it would take up the entire debate space. I am enjoying this debate already, and look forward to seeing you try and defend these harmful actions and policies of one of America"s worst presidents. Good Luck! And again, if you want more clarification or more stats, or more information on any of the above topics, just ask, and I would be delighted to provide them.

[1] http://dailysignal.com...

[2] http://www.forbes.com...

[3] http://www.powerlineblog.com...

[4] http://www.heritage.org...

[5] http://www.forbes.com...

[6] https://www.committeeforjustice.org...
Oreo222

Con

Let's get start with some context. First off, Obama came into office during one of the worst economic upheavals since the Great Depression. 750,000 jobs were being lost per month, and 1.3 million houses were going into foreclosure annually. Student debt and healthcare costs skyrocketed. The automotive industry was on the brink of collapse, there was a $1.2 trillion deficit, and we were in the middle of two wars (the Iraq war probably being the worst foreign policy foul-up in U.S. history).

The financial crisis, now known as the Great Recession, was started in 2007 under George W. Bush due to the harmful and illegal acts of Wall Street. "In 2008 and 2009, the U.S. labor market lost 8.4 million jobs, or 6.1% of all payroll employment. This was the most dramatic employment contraction (by far) of any recession since the Great Depression. By comparison, in the deep recession that began in 1981, job loss was 3.1%, or only about half as severe." The article is a bit outdated, but it's still relevant.
http://stateofworkingamerica.org...

Since then, the U.S. has seen a drastic turn around. More than 11million jobs have been added in the last 58 months. Since 2010, more people have been put back to work than every other advanced economy combined. Since February 2010, American manufacturing has added 786,00 jobs, the fastest pace of job growth since the 1990's. The unemployment rate is below 6%, and this is the fastest economic growth in a decade. "2014 was the best year of job creation in this century."
http://www.nationalmemo.com...
I recommend people read the entire article.

Now to some other aspects of his presidency.

He repealed the Bush-era ban on embryonic stem cell research. He's started a "clean energy revolution." As in, we're now moving away from oil dependency to wind, solar, and nuclear power. He's signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act, which criminalizes the heinous crimes committed by Wall Street.
http://us-presidents.insidegov.com...

Abortion rates and teen pregnancies are at an all time low, and crime rate and incarceration rate came down together. Right now, a typical family should save $750 at a gas station this year. The national deficit went from 9.8% in 2009 to below 3% in 2014.
Don't just take this from me, take it from the man himself: https://youtu.be...

Corporate profits have skyrocketed. Look at the U.S. economy under Obama compared to under Bush. It's usually much better to understand the scale of a president's accomplishments when it's compared to the previous.
http://ourfuture.org...

Obama's most famous law, Obamacare has been a resounding success. There appears to be a very common ignorance on this particular law. Obamacare does a number of things, but what it mainly does is allow you to get another healthcare insurance plan if for some reason you lose your original one. Last I checked, more than 16 million Americans were on Obamacare, and now 9/10 Americans have healthcare coverage. "Obamacare has shown that we can increase coverage dramatically while cutting more than $600 billion from long-term debt projections." Given this, it's safe to assume that with Obamacare, the deficit will cease to exist in a few years.
http://www.nationalmemo.com...

People seem to freak out over the fact he made some Executive Orders. Fun fact: this is the lowest rate of Executive Orders in 100 years. Not a single conservative complained when Bush was making Executive Orders.
http://nymag.com...

More Americans finish college than ever before and students have the highest math and reading scores on record. Given this, it's expected that people will be more able to find a good paying job with the skills they learn.

"Signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act which has created 2.1 million jobs as of 12/31/09"
"Provided the Department of Veteran Affairs (VA) with more than $1.4 billion to improve services to America's Veterans"
"Signed the Children's Health Insurance Reauthorization Act on February 4, 2009, which provides quality health care to 11 million kids - 4 million who were previously uninsured."
"Increased, for the first time in more than a decade, the fuel economy standards for Model Year 2011 for cars and trucks so they get better mileage."
"Managed several natural disasters successfully, including severe winter ice storms and flooding in several states."
"Helped reverse a downwards spiral of the stock market. On January 19, 2009, the last day of President Bush's presidency, the Dow closed at 8,218.22. In February 2010, the Dow closed at 10,309.24"
"Cracked down on companies that deny sick pay, vacation and health insurance to workers by abusing the employee classification of independent contractor."
"Protected 300,000 education jobs, such as teachers, principals, librarians, and counselors through the Recovery Act that would have otherwise been lost."
http://pleasecutthecrap.com...
I recommend people read the entire list to truly comprehend what has happened since 2008.

Given this information, It's safe to assume that President Obama has not been a harmful president, but I'll let Pro respond in the next round.
Debate Round No. 2
doctorcsss

Pro

Well, this looks like it is going to be a rather brutal debate. I applaud you on coming up with valid points to prove that he was not a harmful president. First off, however, I would like to point out that you did not comment on his heightening of race tensions, increased government dependence and his ILLEGAL executive actions (I realize that you may plan to address these in your rebuttal, but just wanted to let you know).

Now, on to my rebuttals.

You initially begin with the standard liberal response to problems lately: "It was Bush"s fault." You mention the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, please don"t as we are discussing domestic policy (If you look at my outline, we are scheduled to introduce foreign policy 3rd round); you were the one who wanted to do this first.
Even if Obama did inherit a troubled economy, I would appreciate it if you look at what he has actually accomplished rather than comparing him to a poor predecessor. In the four and a half years since the close of 2008, the American economy has grown at the inflation-adjusted rate of 1.6% per year. Is this number, 1.6%, any good? Let"s compare it to that obtained by Bush. From the beginning of 2001 until the close of 2008, economic growth averaged 1.7% per year.
So Bush wins by a nose. But as everyone knows, Bush came into office in the midst (as it turns out, at the peak) of one of the great historic booms in modern American economic history. Bush started from a high base and came in low. Obama started from a low base and came in worse.

The statistic we are talking about here is the, "Gross Domestic Product," or GDP. GDP grew at a 1.7% per year from the close of 2000 to that of 2008 and has gone up at 1.6% since. The thing about GDP is it is designed to flatter the government. Government spending is considered outright a component of GDP. Whatever dollars the government spends, it shows up in GDP. [1]

When it suits his purposes, President Obama still makes the economy seem worse than it is so that he can both blame President Bush and justify more policies he wants to implement. Conversely, when President Obama hopes to avoid blame or get credit (like during his re-election campaign) he makes the economy seem much better than it is. Obama correctly points out that stagnant incomes for the middle class have hurt the ability of many Americans to move to better jobs. What he doesn't usually mention is that the combined trends of increased income inequality and decreasing economic mobility have worsened during the years he's been in office. According to the Census Bureau, this is the first time since 1965 that the poverty rate has remained above 15 percent for three straight years; since 2009, median household income in America has fallen 4.4 percent to $58,000 per year; median household income for black Americans has dropped nearly 11 percent to just $33,519. After five years of "recovery" under the Obama administration, a shocking 46.5 million Americans still live in poverty. The best way out of poverty is a job, and unemployment has remained stubbornly high since Obama took office [2].

Look at the facts, straight from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

"23,136,000: The Number Of Americans Who Are Unemployed, Underemployed, Or Have Stopped Looking For Work. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

12,544,000: The Number Of Unemployed Workers. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

8,031,000: The Number Of Workers Working Part-Time For Economic Reasons. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

5,033,000: The Number Of Workers Who Have Been Unemployed For 27 Weeks Or Longer. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

1,043,000: Construction Jobs Lost Since President Obama Took Office. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

582,000 Manufacturing Jobs Lost Since President Obama Took Office. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

261,000: Jobs Lost Since President Obama Took Office. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

1981: The Last Time The Labor Force Participation Rate Was At Its Current Level Of 63.5 Percent. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

43: Consecutive Months The Unemployment Rate Has Remained Above Eight Percent. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

39.2 Weeks: The Average Duration Of Unemployment " Nearly Double The 19.8 Weeks When President Obama Took Office. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

14.7 Percent: The Real Unemployment Rate, Including Those That Are Working Part-Time Due To Economic Reasons. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

11.2 Percent: The Unemployment Rate Had Labor Force Participation Remained Steady Since President Obama Took Office. (American Enterprise Institute)

8.4 Percent: The Unemployment Rate Had Labor Force Participation Remained Steady From July. (American Enterprise Institute)

8.1 Percent: The Unemployment Rate In August 2013. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

7.8 Percent: The Unemployment Rate When President Obama Took Office. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics)

5.4 Percent: The Unemployment Rate President Obama"s Advisers Predicted If We Passed His $787 Billion Stimulus. (Christina Romer and Jared Bernstein, "The Job Impact Of The American Recovery And Reinvestment Plan,")" [6]

Not sure where you are getting your facts from, but if the Bureau of Labor Statistics cannot be trusted, then I do not know what can. I doubt your "nationalmemo.com" source is more credible than this official government agency.

Next, you bring up other issues, like stem cells and "clean energy." The embryonic stem cell research is a very different debate, and it can be argued that this is actually harmful as it takes the lives of unborn children.

As for "clean energy revolution" let's briefly look into that.
Wind and solar energy generation has indeed increased. Wind still only accounted for 13 percent of all renewable energy generated in 2014, and solar was at 1.3 percent of all renewables generated in 2014, up from 1.2 percent from 4 years earlier. Since wind and solar are coming from a small starting point, an increase percentage-wise sounds large. But it doesn't sound as big when looking at the total production [8].

Not only has this "revolution" barely made an impact on current renewable resources, they have cost over 2.2 billion taxpayer dollars [10]. Mind you, Obama chose which businesses and companies received this taxpayer money, of which all are currently decreasing dramatically in their value since his enormous investment in them [9]. Currently, solar produces 0.4% of US electricity, wind 4.4%, and biomass 1.4%. Is this minuscule increase even close to worth the 2.2 billion dollars dumped into it? Not in the slightest. As I said above, the "green" companies that were subsidized or given taxpayer dollars are failing miserably [11].

You go on to list numerous "accomplishments" President Obama. I don"t have space to rebut all of them, but I will most certainly address Obamacare, and then introduce my foreign policy points.

Obamacare has most certainly not been a "resounding success." Evidence is mounting that Obamacare raises health costs for small firms and thereby reduces workers" wages. From a larger perspective, the law is not just discouraging firms from creating new jobs " it"s actually reducing the size of the labor force.

A new economic study from the American Action Forum shows that the law is reducing the pay of workers at small businesses " those with 20 to 99 employees " by at least $22.6 billion every year.
"On average, employees who work a full year for a business with 50-99 employees lose $935 annually due to ACA regulations, while employees of businesses with 20-49 employees, on average lose $827.50 annually," the study noted.
Obamacare isn"t just reducing workers" pay " it"s putting them out of work. The AAF study concludes that the law"s regulations and increased premiums are likely responsible for American employers having shed more than 350,000 jobs. California, Florida, New York, Ohio, and Texas have each lost more than 20,000 jobs, thanks to Obamacare. Federal Reserve data reveals a similar trend " that employers are hiring more part-time workers to avoid Obamacare"s penalties and save money.

At the same time, the law is driving people to avoid seeking work altogether. Obamacare grants many Americans subsidies to help pay for health coverage. These subsidies are pegged to their income levels " the less they make, the more they get from the government. That creates a substantial disincentive for people to work more " or at all. Picking up more hours or shifts can lead to the loss of hundreds or even thousands of dollars" worth of health insurance subsidies [12].

There is so much wrong with Obamacare - and I wish I could go into more detail, but alas, the debate must continue.

A final point I must address: When you say "People seem to freak out over the fact he made some Executive Orders," I don"t know where you got the idea that executive orders freak people out. It is the ILLEGAL ones that freak people out. I would like to see you defend his blatantly obvious disregard for the Constitution.

Just to lay out my points for the foreign policy debate (to give you a heads up):

-Iraq/Afghanistan withdrawal
-Fumbling of Syria, Ukraine and ISIS
-Disastrous Nuclear Deal with Iran

[1] http://www.forbes.com...

[2] http://www.forbes.com...

[6] http://www.powerlineblog.com...

[7] http://www.powerlineblog.com...

[8] http://www.factcheck.org...

[9] http://www.powerlineblog.com...

[10] http://www.washingtontimes.com...

[11] http://www.eia.gov...

[12] http://www.forbes.com...
Oreo222

Con

My opponent seems to have failed to recognize that we are still recovering from a massive financial crisis unseen since the Great Depression. After something like that, it's no wonder that it hasn't been an easy recovery. Also, we're recovering at a faster rate than from the Great Depression. The Great Depression started in 1929 and ended with the American entry into WWII in 1941. That's 11 years of economic struggle. Now let's compare that with the Great Recession. It began in 2007 and officially ended in 2009. That's just 2 years. Now, there are still long term effects that we are still dealing with, but 2 years is hardly any time at all. Why was this such a quick recovery? It's because of Obama's stimulus package. It did better than expected. "The package did better than planned. By the close of FY 2009, $241.9 billion had been spent: $92.8 billion in tax relief, $86.5 billion in unemployment and other benefits and $62.6 billion in job creation grants. In the FY 2012 budget, additional funding was allocated to raise the total to $840 billion.
By December 31, 2013, $816.3 billion had been spent: $290.7 billion in tax relief, $264.4 billion in benefits, and $261.2 billion in contracts, grants or loans, and . (Source: Recovery.gov)"
http://useconomy.about.com...

He also fails to rebut most of my other points such as: "Abortion rates and teen pregnancies are at an all time low, and crime rate and incarceration rate came down together. Right now, a typical family should save $750 at a gas station this year. The national deficit went from 9.8% in 2009 to below 3% in 2014.
Don't just take this from me, take it from the man himself: https://youtu.be......
Corporate profits have skyrocketed. Look at the U.S. economy under Obama compared to under Bush. It's usually much better to understand the scale of a president's accomplishments when it's compared to the previous.
http://ourfuture.org...;

Now to my opponent's arguments.

"A record number of people are dependent on government " that includes record numbers of people on food stamps and an astonishing number of people on disability. Nearly one in seven Americans are on food stamps " that"s over 23 million households. The cost of that program has doubled under Obama. As for disability, the new welfare magnet, 11 million Americans receive assistance through that program [2]."
What's your solution to this? Just outright get rid of the programs? Let's see what would happen if we do get rid of them.
9,000,000 senior citizens would fall below the poverty line without Social Security.
Without Food Stamps, millions would be unable to afford to even eat. "Employees of Wal-Mart and McDonalds, for example, are major beneficiaries of SNAP. (A 2012 Daily Kos article reported that 80 percent of Wal-Mart"s employees benefit from SNAP. One Wal-Mart in Canton, Ohio, even held a food drive for their fellow employees struggling to afford the cost of Thanksgiving dinner.)" http://www.salon.com...
I agree, being dependent on government isn't exactly the best of things, but what's the alternative? Starvation, poverty, and unemployment would be rampant. The quality of life would plummet. We would most likely slip into a recession. It'd be a disaster. Getting rid of welfare would only make the American Dream less possible.

Onto his statements on Obamacare. This one law seems like it should be reserved for an entire debate, but it seems to be a part of this debate regardless. Nevertheless, here we go. People are receiving benefits from Obamacare in more ways than one.
"Services and devices to help people with injuries, disabilities, or chronic conditions - Most plans cover services and equipment to help you recover from temporary injuries, like a broken leg. The ACA requires coverage for goods and services to help you maintain a standard of living if you contract a chronic disease, like multiple sclerosis."
"Pediatric care - Dental and vision care must be covered."
"Emergency Room Services - Most plans cover this, but may charge extra if you go to a hospital that's out of their network, or go without pre-authorization. Obamacare plans don't charge extra."
http://useconomy.about.com...
"Ambulatory patient services " Care you receive without being admitted to a hospital, such as at a doctor"s office, clinic or same-day ("outpatient") surgery center. Also included in this category are home health services and hospice care (note: some plans may limit coverage to no more than 45 days)."
"Emergency services " Care you receive for conditions that could lead to serious disability or death if not immediately treated, such as accidents or sudden illness. Typically, this is a trip to the emergency room, and includes transport by ambulance. You cannot be penalized for going out-of-network or for not having prior authorization."
http://www.forbes.com...

I don't expect jus these to convince you that Obamacare is helping Americans save on healthcare, so let me give you some of my personal experience.
I was in a play (not the lead role, much to my disappointment) and something happened on opening night. A man in the audience had a seizure. The director came out and asked the audience if there was a doctor amongst them and two stepped out from the audience to help the man. She then escorted the rest of the audience out of the theater. The man was okay. He didn't hurt himself or anyone else around him. Regardless, 911 was called and an ambulance arrived. Before it arrived however, the two doctors asked him for his insurance number so they could call them. The man laughed and said, "No, it's alright. I have Obamacare." He was quite calm about the whole ordeal, though he was a bit upset that he cut the play a bit short. He wasn't stressed about hospital bills. He wasn't concerned that his insurance company might jack-up his rates. Nothing. I know it's just one person, but to assume that there's nobody else on Obamacare that experienced something like this is a bit foolish if you ask me.

Now to those allegations that Obama has heightened race relations. "Obama offered a perfunctory condemnation of the rioters, but then, as the Washington Post reports, criticized "Americans, including the news media and some politicians, for failing to address the chronic problems of men, women and children who live in poverty and find their opportunities limited because of poor schools or long stints in prison."" Well, it's true. If there isn't a proper education system and if there isn't a proper justice system that seems to constantly be against them, of course people are going to commit crimes.
Black people seem to be specifically targeted by the police. Subconscious racism is definitely the cause of all these disproportional arrests. I'm not saying that all cops are racist, there's just a few bad apples. But when those bad apples are then protected by the good cops after the bad apples do something wrong, it makes it hard for anyone to trust a cop.
Examples: the man who filmed Freddie Gray's death was arrested multiple times after filming.
The man who filmed Eric Garner's death was arrested multiple times after filming as well. As were his girlfriend and mother.
"African Americans are incarcerated at nearly six times the rate of whites
Together, African American and Hispanics comprised 58% of all prisoners in 2008, even though African Americans and Hispanics make up approximately one quarter of the US population
According to Unlocking America, if African American and Hispanics were incarcerated at the same rates of whites, today's prison and jail populations would decline by approximately 50%"
"5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites
African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense."
http://www.naacp.org...
This tells me that black people are being disproportionately and unfairly arrested more than white people.
Baltimore is a majority black city, but for some reason all the black people seem to be constrained to the poorer neighborhoods. The white people are generally confined to the few nice parts of town.
Also, my opponent makes it seem like poverty is a choice for minorities. Fact: the chances of staying in poverty if you're born into a poor family is exceedingly high.

"More than 300,000 captured illegal aliens had been processed and were awaiting deportation. But, incredibly, Obama stopped these deportations and ordered the U.S. border patrol to release many of these illegal aliens in violation of law and without explanation."
That's actually not true. He's deported more than 2 million illegal aliens, which is more than any president ever.

Nobody complained when Bush or Reagan made more Executive Orders than Obama.
http://nymag.com...

My opponent seems to feel that Obama has done nothing but harm this country, but that's simply not the case. To assume that every single action harms the U.S. is a bit ludicrous if you ask me. I don't expect perfection from him, and neither should you. Could he have done better? I think so. Could he have done worse? Definitely, but you also seem to focus on his ads and criticize him for them. He's a politician. What do you expect? Don't act like a single Republican hasn't done something like this.

Now to foreign policy.

I too shall give you a heads up on my points.

1. Better diplomatic relations
2. An improved strategy in the War in Afghanistan
3. Osama bin Laden

https://youtu.be...
Just saying
Debate Round No. 3
doctorcsss

Pro

Before going into foreign policy, I would like to reiterate a few things on domestic policy.

Contrary to what my opponent stated (which had no context in this debate), I do not think "Obama has done nothing but harm this country." I am do agree with falling abortion rates and the death of Bin Laden (not that he had much to do with either of these, but I will give him credit).

However, The point I have been trying to make in this debate is that he has done more harm than good.

I have not "failed to recognize" that we are still recovering from a recession. If you read my arguments in the previous section, you would see my response to it.

Similarly, I rebutted the points about comparing Obama"s economy to that of Bush, but he failed to read that as well as he simply copy-and-pasted his old argument.

As for government dependence, do you think it is beneficial for a society to have a high percentage of the population dependent on the government? No, I is certainly not. People got along just fine before the implication of Social Security, Welfare and Food Stamps. They were cared for by their neighbors, churches and extended families. I am not saying we should outright cut these programs, but they definitely need to be reduced in size, as our nation simply cannot afford the cost.

"Getting rid of welfare would only make the American Dream less possible."
Wrong. Plain and simple. Ever heard of this guy called Ben Carson before? In short, he was born into a single mother household in inner-city Detroit. Very poor. His mother refused any kind of government assistance. Ben put himself to work, and became lead pediatric surgeon of John Hopkins Hospital and is now running for President. American Dream. Bam.

I will gladly challenge you to a separate debate on Obamacare. But to conclude, thought it genuinely helps some, when a program is run from the federal level, it screws things up. It is not as flexible as a state-level program, and with the added middle-man, it costs more and is not as efficient. After this debate, we will thoroughly debate this important topic.

As I had said in my previous argument, I do not have space to comment on all of your lesser points that you bring up. However, I would like to point out that you have still refused to address one of my major points, that of Obama"s ILLEGAL Executive Actions. "Nobody complained when Bush or Reagan made more Executive Orders than Obama." Please just stop. I am talking about ILLEGAL EXECUTIVE ORDERS. ILLEGAL. Not executive in general. Illegal.

Race relations- "Black lawmakers say the election of the nation"s first African-American president has not been a salve for racial tensions, a view that the public has also voiced in recent polling....Rather than making things better, it has really made matters worse." Words of Star Parker, a female African American [1].

Your claims on deportations: An actual source would be quite nice.

"I don't expect perfection from him, and neither should you. Could he have done better? I think so. Could he have done worse? Definitely, but you also seem to focus on his ads and criticize him for them. He's a politician. What do you expect? Don't act like a single Republican hasn't done something like this."

Are you admitting defeat? Because this sure sounds like you are. Keep the debate focused on the topic, don"t start saying "well...he could have done worse."

Foreign policy:

Obama went into office claiming that he would change the way the world viewed America. Well, he sure did. Now, it seems as if America isn"t even there. Look at the world today. 200,000 dead in Syria"s civil war, eastern Ukraine engulfed in a Russian-backed insurgency, and the Islamic State governing large parts of Syria and Iraq, it can be hard to see what"s better about this world [2].

The United States, Obama said, would leave behind "a sovereign, stable, and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people." Four days later, the last U.S. military unit crossed from Iraq into Kuwait, and American armed forces transferred all their responsibilities to either the central government of Iraq, U.S. Central Command, or the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, completing the most complex hand-off from military to civilian authorities in U.S. history.
The next day, Iraqi Prime Minister secured an arrest warrant for Iraq"s Sunni vice president, accusing him of supporting terrorism. A crisis erupted when the Sunni-dominated political bloc boycotted the national unity government that Obama had so recently touted as inclusive and responsive to the Iraqi people.
That same week, 17 explosions rocked Baghdad, killing at least 65 people and wounding more than 200; al Qaeda later claimed responsibility. With Iranian encouragement, the government began to systematically target Sunni elites on the basis of trumped-up charges of terrorism or alleged affiliation with the outlawed Baath Party. Sectarian violence soon erupted, and by May 2013, it had reached levels not seen since the waning days of the civil war that engulfed Iraq in the wake of the 2003 U.S. invasion.

This chaos allowed the rise of ISIS. Good job Obama. That "JV" team is really not a threat now is it? Those Christians they beheaded, and gays they threw off roofs? Just JV stuff.
25,000 casualties in Afghanistan, we finally have control and are setting up a democracy, and Obama pulls out. Now the Taliban is in control again. Obama also gave away multiple Guantanamo Bay prisoners who returned to ISIS and Al Qaeda for an AWOL soldier who caused the lives of American servicemen.

Not to mention the disastrous Iranian Nuclear Deal. The problems raised by authorities ranging from Henry Kissinger, the country"s most senior former secretary of state, to Sen. Timothy M. Kaine, Virginia"s junior senator, can be summed up in three points:

First, a process that began with the goal of eliminating Iran"s potential to produce nuclear weapons has evolved into a plan to tolerate and temporarily restrict that capability.

Second, in the course of the negotiations, the Obama administration has declined to counter increasingly aggressive efforts by Iran to extend its influence across the Middle East and seems ready to concede Tehran a place as a regional power at the expense of Israel and other U.S. allies.

Finally, the Obama administration is signaling that it will seek to implement any deal it strikes with Iran " including the suspension of sanctions that were originally imposed by Congress " without a vote by either chamber. Instead, an accord that would have far-reaching implications for nuclear proliferation and U.S. national security would be imposed unilaterally by a president with less than two years left in his term.
Iran came to the US looking to negotiate the removal of sanctions applied by President Bush. Why? Because the sanctions were WORKING. They were hurting Iran"s quest for nuclear weapons. So what did Obama do in the deal? He gave them what they wanted! And what did he get in return? That"s right, nothing [4].

What HAS happened since he"s been in office? Where is the stability and peace in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Crimea, Ukraine, Russia, Iran, Israel, Palestine, China and North Korea? Are American citizens safer as they travel abroad?

When the balance of the world seems to stand on the edge of a knife, where is our President?

Since Obama has been President he has played over 200 rounds of golf.

THIS is not a game.

This is Obama's Foreign Policy [3].

Lets hear it from Con.

[1] http://www.wnd.com...

[2] http://foreignpolicy.com...

[3]http://www.jonmcnaughton.com...

[4] http://www.washingtonpost.com...

[5] https://www.foreignaffairs.com...
Oreo222

Con

Let me just do some minor critique's of Pro's 'little rebuttle.'

"I am do agree with falling abortion rates and the death of Bin Laden (not that he had much to do with either of these, but I will give him credit)."
Well, Obama's the one who issued bin Laden's death, and his program called the Teen Pregnancy Preventive Initiative (TPPI) has actually played a pivotal role in the reduction of teen pregnancies.
http://www.siecus.org...

"People got along just fine before the implication of Social Security, Welfare and Food Stamps."
That's not true in the slightest. Social Security elevated more than 9 million senior citizens above the poverty line, and Food Stamps enables people to actually eat when they otherwise couldn't.
http://www.nokidhungry.org...
Also, Welfare recipients can actually begin to LIVE the American Dream, even if by a tiny bit, though millions are still poor.

About Ben Carson, just because one person has managed to do the American Dream all of a sudden means everyone else in the country can also? Also, he's a bit stupid. He said that people go into prison strait and come out gay.
http://time.com...

"I am talking about ILLEGAL EXECUTIVE ORDERS. ILLEGAL. Not executive in general. Illegal."
Oh, sorry. I thought you meant overall.

"Words of Star Parker, a female African American."
Star Parker is a Republican, so of course she's going to try and discredit Obama.
https://www.google.com...

Sorry about the lack of source for the deportations. It slipped my mind.
http://www.pewresearch.org...

"Are you admitting defeat? Because this sure sounds like you are."
I'm not anywhere near admitting defeat. I'm simply stating my opinion. I don't revere him, and I don't despise him. I'm actually quite mixed.

Now back to the nitty-gritty.

Strengthening Diplomatic Relations:

Obama has strengthened relations with numerous countries. He believes that diplomacy should be a cornerstone of any foreign policy. So far, it's worked.

He's building quite the legacy in this field due to the new deals with China and Cuba. The U.S. will now work with China to stop, or at the very least, slow down Climate Change. He has reopened trade with Cuba.
http://www.newrepublic.com...

He's also asserting dominance in Southeast Asia and Oceania. "The opening of a new base in Australia is a powerful symbol of America"s enduring strategic presence in the region. The opening with Burma obviously has both strategic motives and strategic implications." http://foreignpolicy.com...

I'd like to change the topics for numbers 2 and 3 stated in my previous argument to "Dealing with Enemies" and "Crisis Handling."

Dealing with Enemies:

Obama has so far handled the U.S.'s enemies really well. As the Huffington Post describes it, " A quick glance at the checklist of Obama's foreign policy moves and positions shows that he's launched measured but effective strikes against ISIS in Iraq, a similar strike against the top leadership of a terrorist group in Somalia, and has backed every sanction imposed by the European Union on Russia for its assault on the Ukraine."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
So for the most part, he's done quite well.

Just recently, the U.S. killed one ISIS' main leaders and took his wife hostage. "Murad was killed Friday during a rare ground operation in Islamic State-held territory in Syria by Delta Force operators. His wife, known as Umm Sayyaf, was taken into custody and is being interrogated, U.S. officials say. She is cooperative and providing "a trove" of intelligence, said a congressional official briefed on the matter."
http://www.nydailynews.com...

The New York Times did a good summary as well. "On June 23, the last of Syria"s chemical weapons stockpile was loaded onto a Danish freighter to be destroyed. The following day, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia asked his Parliament to rescind the permission that it had given him to send troops into Ukraine. Meanwhile, there is still cautious optimism that a nuclear deal with Iran is within reach."
http://www.nytimes.com...

The U.S. is currently leading 61 nations in a coalition against ISIS and recently liberated the city of Tikrit, a key and pivotal Sunni city.
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.pbs.org...

Crisis Handling:

For starters, Liberia is now Ebola free, which is great considering how it once had the most cases of Ebola out of all afflicted nations. http://www.who.int...
U.S. doctors and treatments assured the safety of Liberian citizens, and U.S. soldiers maintained order in the region.

He handled the earthquake and Cholera outbreak with a deft hand. "When the cholera outbreak struck 10 months after the earthquake had wreaked havoc, we provided clean drinking water, and mobilized emergency specialists to double our cholera response; setting up more water, sanitation and hygiene programs. We reached over 700,000 people in the capital Port-au-Prince, Artibonite in central Haiti, and Cap Haitien in northern Haiti, in the month after the first cases were confirmed."

Also:
"Since Obama has been President he has played over 200 rounds of golf."
Who cares? I mean really; the man has the most stressful and time consuming job in the world and people criticize him for a little leisure time. Besides, he's actually spent less vacation days than Bush. "Before his two-week trip to Martha"s Vineyard in August, Obama"s count was 125 full or partial days and Bush"s total at the same point in his presidency was 407."
http://www.factcheck.org...

Huh. I have 3,683 characters remaining. Last argument, I literally used up every single one of my characters. I don't quite know what to do with the rest of them.
Debate Round No. 4
doctorcsss

Pro

Ok closing statements and final points. Please do not bring up new points in the final round as I will not be able to rebut them.

I can deal with your rebuttals on abortion rates and Bin Laden"s death, although again, he didn"t play a huge role. But your comments on Ben Carson are absolutely outrageous. He is the FIRST person ever to separate conjoined twins at the head successfully, and you call him STUPID? Just because he says one offhand remark that is not correct (although in some cases could be right), does that give you the right to label him stupid and discredit his amazing accomplishments? I don"t think so.

"Star Parker is a Republican, so of course she's going to try and discredit Obama."
Wow. Great rebuttal. Discredit whatever someone says just because of their political affiliation. Those are some quality debating skills there.

So back to foreign policy, it all comes down to one question: Do you think the world is a better, safer place now towards the end of Obama"s presidency than before he took office? The easy, and obvious answer is clearly no. He has wrecked our relations with Israel, his blatant disregard for Benjamin Netanyahu is evidence of that. His foolish withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan went against the advice of nearly all military leaders, and were a disaster as I stated in my previous argument.

So, at the end of your previous argument you posted: "Huh. I have 3,683 characters remaining. Last argument, I literally used up every single one of my characters. I don't quite know what to do with the rest of them."

Let me give you a few ideas:

You have still failed to address Obama"s massive debt acclimation and his awful economy.

You have repeatedly avoided discussing his Illegal Executive orders.

You have failed to address his failed foreign policy actions like the Iraq/Iran pullout.

In conclusion, Obama has transformed the nation and the world just like he promised. He has expanded Big Government , doubled the national debt, disregarded the Constitution and let the world dissolve into chaos.

Thank you for the debate and once again, I would be happy to debate any of these topics in full with you.
Oreo222

Con

Rebuttals:
"Just because he says one offhand remark that is not correct (although in some cases could be right), does that give you the right to label him stupid and discredit his amazing accomplishments? I don"t think so."
One offhand remark? He said people go into prison strait and come out gay. Being gay isn't a choice. You are born that way. Yes, his accomplishments are quite something, but that doesn't detract from his political views.

"He is the FIRST person ever to separate conjoined twins at the head successfully, and you call him STUPID?"
A source would be nice.

"Wow. Great rebuttal. Discredit whatever someone says just because of their political affiliation. Those are some quality debating skills there."
You mean to tell me that a Republican in politics WOULDN'T try to discredit Obama? Since day 1 of his presidency, the Republicans have been opposed to whatever he wanted, even if it was originally a Republican idea to begin with.
Obamacare's a perfect example of this. "Romneycare," I suppose you could call it, was used by Governor Mitt Romney in Massachusetts. It's one of the reasons Obamacare was created.
http://www.politico.com...

"Do you think the world is a better, safer place now towards the end of Obama"s presidency than before he took office?" Sure, not everything's perfect. We are, however, winning the fight against ISIS. We've kicked them out of Tikrit, killed one of their top leaders, and they've lost 25% of their overall territory.
http://www.cnn.com...

"disregarded the Constitution"
What are you talking about? In his 2015 State of the Union, he said he wanted to work with the Republican congress to pass progressive bills. I can tell you didn't watch it.

"You have repeatedly avoided discussing his Illegal Executive orders."
I highly doubt a single one of his Executive Orders were illegal. He IS allowed to make Executive Orders after all. Even if they WERE illegal, he wouldn't be the first president to break the law *cough* Nixon *cough*.

"His foolish withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan."
He hasn't completely pulled out of Afghanistan.
http://www.nytimes.com...

"You have failed to address his failed foreign policy actions like the Iraq/Iran pullout."
1: He never pulled out of Iran.
2: Yes, pulling out of Iraq was bad, but that's one of the things he campaigned for in 2008. If he DIDN'T pull out of Iraq, I can guarantee every Republican would be calling him a liar.
3: What Foreign Policy failure are you talking about? If you look in my last argument, you'd see how his foreign policies are have improved U.S. reputation. YOU'RE the one who's failed to talk about any of my arguments about Foreign Policy.

"He has expanded Big Government ,"
Wrong. Flat out wrong. Fewer people work for the Federal Government under Obama than under Bush.
http://www.pewresearch.org...

"doubled the national debt"
True. However, he also removed more than $1 TRILLION from the national deficit, and it's getting smaller everyday. So in the long run if we keep his policies, we'll end up with a surplus and be able to pay off that debt.
http://www.washingtonpost.com...

"and his awful economy."
I'm sorry, but how is this economy awful? If you mean the statistics you put in Round 3, but the link you put only shows a site with a pop-up ad and cherry-picked topics. One of the comments put on that very page said, "Nice cherry picking; just ignore the first 3 months (3 extra million) also under Obama which had NOTHING to do with policies of Obama, in fact his policies clearly show the point of inclination back towards gaining jobs once enacted (know how to read a chart?). Also way to blame the democrats in Congress for the debt under bush when most of the debt was run up before 2006 midterm elections. Two Wars, Med Part D, tax cuts, all the big ticket items were GOP initiatives that cost 6 trillion in JUST those items, you blow hard. Cordially..." -Navid Rosham

Conclusions:

I personally feel that Obama has benefited the U.S. more than he's harmed it.
The economy is booming for starters.

Examples:

The U.S. economy grew 2.4% in 2014, which is the strongest
Corporate profits have skyrocketed. Look at the U.S. economy under Obama compared to under Bush. It's usually much better to understand the scale of a president's accomplishments when it's compared to the previous.
http://ourfuture.org......

More than 11million jobs have been added in the last 58 months. Since 2010, more people have been put back to work than every other advanced economy combined. Since February 2010, American manufacturing has added 786,00 jobs, the fastest pace of job growth since the 1990's. The unemployment rate is below 6%, and this is the fastest economic growth in a decade. "2014 was the best year of job creation in this century."
http://www.nationalmemo.com......
I recommend people read the entire article.
"Signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act which has created 2.1 million jobs as of 12/31/09"
"Helped reverse a downwards spiral of the stock market. On January 19, 2009, the last day of President Bush's presidency, the Dow closed at 8,218.22. In February 2010, the Dow closed at 10,309.24"
"Protected 300,000 education jobs, such as teachers, principals, librarians, and counselors through the Recovery Act that would have otherwise been lost."
http://pleasecutthecrap.com......
I recommend people read the entire list to truly comprehend what has happened since 2008.

He didn't just help the economy, he basically SAVED it. Thanks to his Stimulus Package, the Great Recession ended in just 2 years. 2 years! that's hardly anytime at all compared to its equivalent, the Great Depression, which lasted 11 years.
http://useconomy.about.com......

He's done more than just help the economy.

Examples:

Teen pregnancy and abortion rates are at an all time low thanks to his Teen Pregnancy Prevention Initiative. http://www.siecus.org...
The crime rate and incarceration rate came down together.
The national deficit went from 9.8% in 2009 to below 3% in 2014.
Take it from the man himself: https://youtu.be.........

"Cracked down on companies that deny sick pay, vacation and health insurance to workers by abusing the employee classification of independent contractor."
"Provided the Department of Veteran Affairs (VA) with more than $1.4 billion to improve services to America's Veterans"
"Signed the Children's Health Insurance Reauthorization Act on February 4, 2009, which provides quality health care to 11 million kids - 4 million who were previously uninsured."
"Increased, for the first time in more than a decade, the fuel economy standards for Model Year 2011 for cars and trucks so they get better mileage."
"Managed several natural disasters successfully, including severe winter ice storms and flooding in several states."
http://pleasecutthecrap.com...

Relations with China, the EU, and Southeast Asia have improved dramatically.
Reopening relations with Cuba is a huge step forward. http://www.newrepublic.com...

He's killed one of the U.S.'s biggest enemies, Osama bin Laden.

The New York Times sums up Obama's Foreign Policy pretty well, "On June 23, the last of Syria"s chemical weapons stockpile was loaded onto a Danish freighter to be destroyed. The following day, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia asked his Parliament to rescind the permission that it had given him to send troops into Ukraine. Meanwhile, there is still cautious optimism that a nuclear deal with Iran is within reach."
http://www.nytimes.com...

Liberia is now Ebola free, which is great considering how it once had the most cases of Ebola out of all afflicted nations.
http://www.who.int...
U.S. doctors and treatments assured the safety of Liberian citizens, and U.S. soldiers maintained order in the region.

Now to my opponent:
"They were hurting Iran"s quest for nuclear weapons. So what did Obama do in the deal? He gave them what they wanted! And what did he get in return? That"s right, nothing [4]."
That's funny, I don't seem to recall ever hearing about this. Yes, relieving sanction is in the peace deal, but that hasn't been fully flushed out yet. We only have the framework.

He has failed to rebut a single one of my arguments on Foreign Policy along with several of my other arguments.

"When the balance of the world seems to stand on the edge of a knife, where is our President?"
You sound like you're quoting Bill O'Reilly.

Now then, given all of this information, we can conjecture that President Obama has not been as harmful as my opponent would make him out to be. If anything, he's been very beneficial to the U.S.

You say he's abandoning Israel, when it's not quite the case. Obama's trying to make a peace deal with Iran and Netanyahu's trying to increase tensions. Don't know why you'd want to support a racist. http://www.salon.com...
"He has wrecked our relations with Israel, his blatant disregard for Benjamin Netanyahu is evidence of that"
You seem to revere the guy, but Netanyahu basically tried to make Congress commit treason.
http://www.salon.com...
I recommend people read the entire article.

Thank you, too, for the debate. I found it quite fun and interesting.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
...So, I had something more extensive written up, but I lost it somehow, so now I'm just going to summarize.

Both sides really need to be clear about the win conditions here. This debate isn't about whether Obama is comparatively good, it's about whether he's done more harm than good. Period. That is affected by context, since he may not be the cause of some of the harms or benefits that have happened during his presidency, but there's a clear line between that and comparison. What also needs to be clearer is what is a benefit, and what is a harm. A lot of these points don't end up getting clear links to these. An example from each side: why is government dependency harmful, and why is less oil dependency good? Those may seem obvious to you, but I can think of reasons why both of those should be reversed. I need clarity from you 2.

The biggest problem, though, is that I'm not sure what constitutes a huge harm/benefit and how those should be compared. Neither side does any work on this for me, simply making laundry lists without any major form of comparison. You both are each winning pieces - Obama has done some harm and has been beneficial in some ways as well - but I don't know how to compare those arguments.

And so I'm left with 2 choices. I can either spend hours going through both cases, determine the number of points each side is winning, and basically give them all the same weight (which does both of your arguments a great disservice and puts me in an interfering role in the debate) or I can just base my vote on burdens. Pro is the only one in this debate that has to prove something: Obama's presidency has been net harmful. If I'm very very unsure of that, I negate. So that's what I do here. Since the benefits are never clearly outweighed by the harms, rather than side with either debater's arguments, I simply end up neutral. That means I default to Con.
Posted by Oreo222 2 years ago
Oreo222
Targaryen,
I only put youtube links to a) show Obama's 2015 State of the Union and b) show how Fox News isn't a reliable source because I could tell he's watched a few times.
Posted by bluesteel 2 years ago
bluesteel
==============================================================
> Reported vote: Gibby97 // Moderator action: Removed<

5 points to Pro (argument, sources), 1 point to Con (S&G). Reasons for voting decision: Overall a wonderful debate. Very well constructed and presented on both sides.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) Failure to explain S&G and sources. (2) Too generic on arguments.
==============================================================
Posted by Oreo222 2 years ago
Oreo222
No thanks. This debate was enough of a mental ache for me lol jk.
Posted by doctorcsss 2 years ago
doctorcsss
I feel like we could continue to debate some topics if you want to settle it a little more.
Posted by Oreo222 2 years ago
Oreo222
It's okay doctorcsss.
Posted by doctorcsss 2 years ago
doctorcsss
Hey, sorry I had to make my last rebuttal brief. When I said "Iraq/Iran pullout" I mean Iraq/Afghanistan pullout. I was rushing to get to an event.
Posted by doctorcsss 2 years ago
doctorcsss
Oreo222 if you have any additional questions or want to discuss something in more depth, please feel free to message me.
Posted by Jonnykelly 2 years ago
Jonnykelly
I look forward to this.
Posted by ConceptEagle 2 years ago
ConceptEagle
Harmful as in hurting society more than contributing to it or has done at least one thing to hurt society or let something harmful hurt society or a mix?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
doctorcsssOreo222Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Given in comments.
Vote Placed by Targaryen 2 years ago
Targaryen
doctorcsssOreo222Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:52 
Reasons for voting decision: Coming into this debate, I agreed with Pro, and afterwards, I still agreed with Pro. Con's arguments seemed to be repetitive through each round, just repeating things over and over again. Pro did a decent job of refuting those arguments, while also presenting arguments of his/her own. Con also did a decent job of refuting Pro's arguments, but he/she lost her credibility when he/she started using Youtube as a source, which isn't viable. Really riveting debate, and good job to both sides.