The Instigator
attrition
Pro (for)
Losing
18 Points
The Contender
Dyankovich
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Barck Obama over Hillary Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/7/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,035 times Debate No: 2460
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (13)

 

attrition

Pro

I think Barack Obama would be the better choice for the president of the United states over Hilary Clinton.

I would like to debate with a Hilary Clinton supporter. I hope this can be positive. I think neither one of us want to disparage the other's candidate too much, lest the opponents pick win the nomination, and we would have to show support to that individual candidate. We are both on the ABAR( Anyone but a Republican) campaign. Let's say we agree on the following things based on the candidate's actions:

1.Does not want to stay in Iraq any more than we have to. Steady withdrawal, until very little to no troops remain. Clinton voted for the original authorization for the war, Obama spoke out against it.

2.Health care is a priority. Clinton mandates universal coverage. Obama does not mandate except in the case of children. Obama prefers to lower costs based on people's income and give them an option to buy it or not.

3.Education should be a priority. Don't know of much of a major difference here.

4.Either one would be FAR superior to any Republican.

Things I don't like about Hilary:

1. Symbolic of the notion of dynasties in the White House. That doesn't seem patriotic. Since 1981 a Bush or a Clinton has been in the White house. So if Hilary is elected, and assuming she gets eight years, be will have had two families in the White house for 35 years. What next Jeb? Who then, freak n' Chelsea!! Im getting dizzy!!

2. Ultra-Polarizing figure. Decent Senator, from what it seems. But many Democrats love her and many, many Republicans HATE her. I mean, it's a little crazy. They get all red in the face whenever anyone mentions her. A bit obsessive. So right there you have another dividing line the center of the country. Dems vs. Republicans.!! Fight to the finish!! Divider vs. Obama's coalition building philosophy.

3. Uses the matter of her experience as the ultimate litmus test for a president. ALL the time. Years and years of political experiences by Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, their dullard puppet, ol' GW himself, and the rest, have helped put us where this country is at today. It doesn't sell me enough.

4. Uses Bill too much. Essentially a 3rd Bill Clinton term. Which I find to be bordering on unconstitutional.

5. Win at any cost republican like tactics. Old politics. Taking quotes out of context, attacks on character that are done by implication, swiftboating. (This is a little low I think)

6. Status quo. No real change. Like I said, up to 35 years or more of two families.

Obama Pros:

1. Truly dramatic figure to represent a new face, and a new direction of the U.S. to the rest of the world and so importantly to it's own citizens.

2. Republicans can't get him on originally supporting the Iraq war ala John Kerry. Hillary can't do that.

3. Cross-over attraction. Even my extremely religious conservative 68 year old mom and my cousin who always votes republican likes Obama. That says a lot to me. He can reach across these artificial barriers to real progress we have in our society. The hardcore extremists on both sides, put up these barriers between the people our country. The rich get richer, the poor struggle and still get poorer. Clinton's government, as much as I would prefer over a republican administration, we find it harder to get true progress done due to her divisive qualities.

4. Wisdom, honesty, sincerity are stronger than experience. The president provides direction, leadership, vision and the ability to get people to work with him. He can help the people get their collective voice back. Clinton is lucky to have been a U.S. Senator longer than Obama. Do you not think that given time, Obama would have at least if not more accomplishments than Hilary. He will be able to get more done as President and lead this country to a better path and represent a 180 from Bush doctrines. Clinton is still somewhat of a hawk on foreign policy. We would have a 90 degree turn from Bush, not good enough for me or this country.

5. I would be amazed to see a man of color as president and what that represents to the people of a mixed society like ours and to the rest of the world. A woman is a close second on this one. Sorry. Less than 40 years ago, black people couldn't go to the same schools as white people in this country. This is an outstanding sentiment to show how far we have come in the majority of this country.

So let's start there.
Dyankovich

Con

Dyankovich forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 1
attrition

Pro

attrition forfeited this round.
Dyankovich

Con

Dyankovich forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
attrition

Pro

The Hilary vs. McCain race would do the following:

Excite the entire republican establishment to not vote FOR somebody, but the vote would be cast AGAINST somebody they truly despise. I am willing to bet that you won't tell me I am wrong when I say the far right truly dislikes Hilary, and many in the center don't particular like her either, certainly against the alternative McCain. So McCain has tried to get back in to the good graces with the religious right, the NeoCons, and the independents. Some in the republican party would stay home because they don't like McCain all that much, if Barak is the candidate, but not if Hilary is the other choice.

Read these articles: http://www.msnbc.msn.com...

http://www.nytimes.com......
ex=1359176400&en=b00861dd0b986aca&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

Recent polls show Obama leading McCain and Hillary losing by a point or two. Even Karl Rove wants Hillary as the nominee. What does that tell you?

>>You said: "1. I am a member of U.S. Intelligence and have personally met Sen. Clinton and liked her a lot and two... Because I believe Sen. Obama is a second rate candidate riding on the coat tails of an iconic President, nothing more.<<<

I don't know how you could state this with a straight face. H. Clinton and B.Clinton have the same last name, if anyone is 'riding on coat tails' it is Hilary.

>>I think if we are both like minded Democrats we can agree that Bill Clinton was a great President, even with whatever personal indiscretions he had. He would be one of her top advisors, ....<<

We are not talking about the past of Bill Clinton, we are talking about the past of HILARY Clinton. I don't have any major issues with Bill until recently. I think he got railroaded and it is absurd to me what he got impeached for versus what this current president has gotten away with.

Bill Clinton quote, "You said in 2004 there was no difference between you and George Bush on the war, and you took that speech you're now running on off your Web site in 2004. There's no difference in your voting record and Hillary's ever since. Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen". This is exactly how old politics is played. The under tone of a statement that can be explained away as not specific on the overall intent, but none the less hints at the crux that nominating Obama is just a dream that can never happen presumably because Obama isn't an establishment figure. In my view, this is what the presidency SHOULD be about. Not to mention this was a complete distortion since Obama made no such speech whatsoever. I searched all over the internet for this quote, could not find it anywhere independently of Hilary. I did find that quote on a Pro-Hilary website, (http://facts.hillaryhub.com...) but that is not at all the same thing, referring to an interview with the Chicago Tribune (which incidentally is endorsing Obama) reporter before the DNC in '04. The entire article isn't linked and isn't completely clear what he is referring to exactly. Bill called it a speech and even Hilary's own people say it wasn't a speech and thusly mis characterized and taken out of context. Obama was referring to the administration's take on keeping troops in Iraq at the time. Obama agreed(as does Clinton)that to pull troops out completely at that time would have been a mistake. We screwed it up, so we must at least try to minimize further damaging that country. Troop withdrawal is now necessary.

<>>Experience should sell you a lot actually. If you were dying and had the choice of choosing between a heart doctor with 30 years experience, or one who did real well in med school but has never actually never performed a heart transplant, who would you pick? ....<<<

23 incredibly wise Senator's stood up to Bush on that day of infamy. He spoke out against the war, at great political risk, before it was authorized. So you cannot spin that into saying he would have done anything. He had the vision and the wisdom to know better despite evidence to the contrary. I wasn't for the war..maybe you were and that's why you make excuses for Hilary. Obviously, the intelligence community was not that intelligent when it came to Iraq. The man didn't even have tanks let alone anything that would harm us. Pre-emptive attacks on a country could be justified to attack anyone on any excuse, Obama knew better Hilary did not. This shows that experience isn't everything, true leadership and vision is. A doctor is not a good example in this situation, what a Presidential leader does and what a doctor provides are too different to provide as a good metaphor.

>>On a related note, you referenced all current Republicans with years of experience in three administrations that make every democrat shudder..<<

I don't claim that experience can't be good. I am claiming that is not, and should not be the only thing we should consider when voting for a public official. We have to have some way to determine what kind of person they will be and what type of leader they will be, Obama does have a record and shows us that he is a progressive leader with the ability to bring people together through his community organizing experience. Abraham Lincoln had very little experience prior to becoming one of our greatest presidents.

>>-Senators Clinton and Obama both have been head hunting each other in this Primary campaign. It isn't right for you to say Sen. Clinton will win at all cost when Sen. Obama has been attacking just as much...<<

Since Clinton has been removed from the presumptive nominee status the press put her in, she has solely been the one on the attack. Obama has defended himself by pointing to those attacks as old style Washington Politics that this country is so tired of. Please provide an instance that Obama, without provocation, attacked Hilary on an unfair basis.

>>Once again, it hasn't been 35 years of the same family. I know where you got this quote, and I would like to officially address it..<<

Bush Sr. was VP from '81-89(8 years), then President from ,'89-93(4 years) Bill Clinton President from '93-2001 (8 Years), Bush Jr. president from '01-09 (8 years), Hilary Clinton if elected will have at least four years '09-'13 (4 years. Added up you get 32 years--add a second Hilary term you get 36 years. So it wasn't exactly 35, but it is damn close.

>>Also I would like to see the evidence of where Hillary Clinton is a foreign policy hawk... Because she tours Iraq four times a year, and does peace keeping tours with the U.S. Senate. Could you send me where you got these facts?<<

http://www.amconmag.com...


This point we can agree on. I certainly don't think Obama is a coalition builder because he is a black man, I think he is a uniter because he reaches to everyone not just his race such as the other black candidates, Sharpton or Jesse J. He has shown this by getting large numbers of whites to vote for him. Clinton is the one that has injected the campaign with race when she belittled MLK contribution to the Civil rights movement inferring that LBJ was the one that mattered
Dyankovich

Con

Dyankovich forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
I agree, I hated missing that round. I was in the middle of typing my 2nd response when it was forfeited. If I lose because of that then so be it. I am still not convinced Hillary is the best choice, but a good effort by you none the less. Thanks for the debate.
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
Dyankovich, why are you arguing for Clinton, when your profile says you are Supporting John McCain? You seem to be misrepresenting yourself. I wanted to debate a Clinton supoorter, not a McCain supporter
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
Dyankovich, If you want, at the conclusion of this debate, I can make another 1 round debate to make up for the missed round. Once again, apologies. I was typing against time, and time won.
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
I apologize for missing my deadline. I have been very busy and I knew this response was going to take a while. I am writing it right now. My apologies to my opponent.
Posted by solo 9 years ago
solo
I'm against any oligarchy, but I don't think that's a good enough reason NOT to vote for Clinton, just because it's been all about the Bushes and Clintons for almost three decades. I look forward to this debate, but not interested in engaging in it.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Since when is someones color a reason to elect them for President? So what he is black ? The others are white ..wow .. he deserves to be President then.
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
the key words in this debate are mentioned in the first sentence: I think.

This is an opinion, as I have said before, some people think hilary clinton would be better. Opinion. You also said "things I dont like about hilary." once again opinion.
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