The Instigator
FanboyMctroll
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Nd2400
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player of all time

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Nd2400
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/30/2018 Category: Sports
Updated: 3 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 256 times Debate No: 107305
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (26)
Votes (2)

 

FanboyMctroll

Pro

Barry Bonds is the greatest home run hitter of all time!! Yes there are people that will say he cheated, that he should have an asterisks beside his name in the home run record. So let me clarify those doubters. First of all steroids will not make you a better hitter, sure you might have more power and be able to drive the ball deeper for more homeruns but you still need to make contact with a ball coming in at 95+ MPH. Bonds is a career .298 hitter. he batted over .300 eleven times in his career. How many ball players can even bat .280 today? He is a 7 time MVP, nobody is even close to that.

People will argue that he used steroids so he cheated, but how can you cheat when steroids were not illegal at the time in MLB?? Everybody was using them to perform better, yet out of all players that used them, he was the greatest. He crushed Mark McGwire's record of 70 home runs in a season and he set the record for most walk in a season. Pitchers were trembling at the fact of facing Bonds.

Bonds holds the home run record at 73, thirteen more then Babe Ruth and twelve more then Maris. And no asterisks is needed as he belongs in the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown!!!

Bonds is the greatest home run hitter and player in baseball.

Alright lets do this again, go ahead copy and paste your argument from the last time and I will respond in round #2
Nd2400

Con

Hello FanBoy. I'm Glad you decided to do this debate again. So, let's get this started again...

You said Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player of all time. I will prove otherwise. And i will give you some players who do deserve this recognition. You also said Steroids has nothing to do with Home Runs growth. I will also prove this theory is wrong. You also mention everyone was doing it. Again i will show this is also wrong.

My first set of arguments will focus on other great players. Who should be considered as the greatest players in Baseball?

My first player is none other than Babe Ruth. "Babe Ruth is not only the most famous but the greatest baseball player of all time. He ranks #1 on the Black Ink test and #1 on the Hall of Fame Standards test. While most people know he was a truly great hitter, fewer are aware that he ranks in the top 20 all-time as a pitcher in both winning percentage and ERA". (1.) https://www.baseball-reference.com......

My second player is Willie Mays. "Willie Mays is one of the three or four players who are considered when observers try to decide who is the game's all-time greatest player. He was the complete player, with tremendous home run power, incredible fielding ability, a high batting average, good on-base percentage, great speed, and a nice guy". (2.) https://www.baseball-reference.com......

My third player is Hank Aaron. "A member of the Hall of Fame is best known for setting the record for most home runs in a career (755), surpassing the previous mark of 714 by Babe Ruth. Aaron also holds the career marks for runs batted in (2,297), extra-base hits (1,477), and total bases (6,856). He won one World Series ring with the Milwaukee Braves in 1957, and the National League Most Valuable Player Award the same year. He also earned three Gold Glove Awards, and made 22 All-Star appearances". (3.) https://www.baseball-reference.com....... Either though he is actually rank 5 in the Baseball Reference. I have him at third for me. But if you were wondering where is Barry Bonds on this list he is at "34". (4.) https://www.baseball-reference.com......

My second part of this argument is steroids.

You said this "First of all steroids will not make you a better hitter". I will argue against this and have scientific evidence on why this statement you said is wrong.
"Authors concluded that patients with supraphysiologic levels of TE had a significantly greater increase in their lean muscle mass as well as a more significant increase in the size of their legs and triceps, and a more significant increase in the weight they could bench press and squat compared to the control group." (5.) https://www.omicsonline.org......
"There was a significant increase in players who hit more than 40 HR in a single season during the steroid era compared to before and after this time period". (6.) https://www.omicsonline.org......
If you look at Barry Bonds pictures during his early playing days. You start to wonder how did he get so big toward the end of his career. Defiantly his head, this inst natural. His arms and shoulders were just huge at the end. But how? "Barry Bonds began using steroids after the 1998 baseball season and came to rely on a wide variety of performance-enhancing drugs over the next several years, according to a book written by two Chronicle reporters and excerpted in this week's Sports Illustrated". (7.) http://m.sfgate.com......

You also mention everyone was using. Not true. I will give you some names during the Barry Bonds era who never used. Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Jeter, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Albert Belle, Ichiro Suzuki, Omar Vizquel. Just to name a few. These players that i mention were never link or heard anything about using performing enhancing drugs. Another comparison is Albert Pujols, he was naturally big, and you never saw him grown in his arms or shoulders or anything. So just by looking at his body size during his early playing career to now. You can see his body size hasn't changed. But with Barry Bonds, you could see a huge difference in his body sizes.

You also said this "how can you cheat when steroids were not illegal at the time in MLB??"
"Anabolic steroids, which fall under the general category of
Performance Enhancing Drugs (PED), have been a banned substance for Major League Baseball (MLB) players since 1991". (8.) https://www.omicsonline.org......
So according to this statement Anabolic steroids were banned. So case closed...
Barry Bonds is not the best player ever, nor will ever be considered as the best....

Thank you fanBoy. The floor is yours.....
Debate Round No. 1
FanboyMctroll

Pro

Alright Nd2400, thanks for taking the time to continue this debate.

Your first disagreement with me was for Babe Ruth. Yes Babe Ruth was one of the greatest of all time BUT during his era pitchers would pitch a complete game and start games on multiple days, unlike today where a player might face a pitcher 3 times in one game before the bullpen comes in. As in the case of Bonds, the bullpen always came in after his second at bat maybe even after his first at bat, yet he was able to career bat .298, he batted over .310 eleven times in his career, facing pitchers that all throw over 95 MPH. Ruth would at times face the same pitcher and with only 8 teams in the league would see the same pitcher maybe 40 times in a season, that gives you so much more advantage then seeing a new pitcher almost every game all season. Bonds also holds the HR record with 73, while Ruth hit 60.

Willy Mays was an excellent player but he doesn't have the staggering stats like Bonds here below

14" All-Star (1990, 1992"1998, 2000"2004, 2007)
7" NL MVP (1990, 1992, 1993, 2001"2004)
8" Gold Glove Award (1990"1994, 1996"1998)
12" Silver Slugger Award (1990"1994, 1996, 1997, 2000"2004)
3" NL Hank Aaron Award (2001, 2002, 2004)
2" NL batting champion (2002, 2004)
2" NL home run leader (1993, 2001)
NL RBI leader (1993)

Hank Aaron was a great baseball player but Bonds surpassed him in career homeruns and these other stats below

762 career home runs (755 career for Hank Aaron)
73 home runs in a season (44 in a season for Hank Aaron)
2,558 career walks
688 career intentional walks

Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player of all time, his stats alone are staggering and dominating and I would place Babe Ruth second behind Bonds as the greatest of all time, then Hank Aaron 3'rd

But for this debate Barry Bonds is the greatest!!! Nd2400 your rebuttal please, better be good because I have the knockout punch in round 3 that will blow your socks off LOL
Nd2400

Con

Thank you for your edginess on wanting to finish this debate topic. I will go a little light in this round, so my third round could be the Knock out round. To finish you off!!!

Okay you still think Barry Bonds is greater than Babe Ruth, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. Again you are wrong on this. I will again compare them to Barry Bonds So called Records. I will question why these records matter when Barry Bonds in fact was using? These records you are talking about for Bonds is very misleading because the fact that he did use Anabolic Steroids.

Babe Ruth

Not only he was a great hitter. But he was a great pitcher. You mention Babe Ruth only had two face few pitchers back in his days. That is in fact true. But you didn't consider the quality of talent he had to face. Sure he face them a lot more times than what Bonds had to face in his days. But Babe Ruth didn't just played against average players or some John Doe. He had the play against the best of the best. Babe Ruth had to played with the likes of Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Honus Wagner. All of them in Baseball"s first Hall of Fame. Bonds had to face guys like Neifi Perez, Juan Castro, Kevin Jarvis, Jose Lima. All of them consider very bad ball players. Sure Bonds face more ball players, but the talent was not the same like back then. Oh and Another thing to consider how many more Home Runs would Ruth had if he was using like Bonds?

Willie Mays was inducted to the Hall of Fame in 1979. With two other Hack Wilson, and Warren Giles."

Hank Aaron was inducted to the Hall of Fame in 1982. Same with Frank Robinson.

You know why i mention the Hall of Fame?
It because Barry Bonds isn't in the Hall of Fame. So i will ask you this. How can a player be considered the Greatest player Ever, if he not in the Hall of Fame?

I told you i would keep this round short... But keep in mind the next round will not be for the fate of heart. Hope you don't have a bad heart...lol because it going to be ugly.....
Debate Round No. 2
FanboyMctroll

Pro

Alright round 3 and final round.

I would like to point out that Barry Bonds is not in the Hall of Fame YET, he has 3 more years of eligibility to be voted into the Hall. The eligibility period is 10 years, Bond's voting numbers have been going up from year to year, I believe you need 75% of the writers votes to be eligible and Bonds numbers have climbed to 66% as of this year. He will be in the Hall of Fame, it's just too early to say that he is not.

As for the steroid discussion, MLB did not say steroids were illegal when Bonds used them. If you are an athlete you use whatever supplements help you perform at your peak level. Athletes use whatever is available to be better. Ruth used hotdogs and beer, some players use Creatine, protein boosters, steroids were not illegal to use in MLB so Bonds used them. So did MacGwyer, Sosa, Palmero, Arod, on and on, plenty of athletes used them. Roger Clemens used them, how many other pitchers in the game that Bonds faced used steroids? The point is everyone was using them and they were not illegal so how can you judge them as cheating if everyone is using them and Bonds just happened to be the best out of all of them. Besides steroids will not help you with eye contact and bat contact. They will help you to hit the ball further so a double off the wall turns into a homerun or a deep line drive clears the wall but steroids will not help you connect with the ball. And since Bonds had 11 seasons, batting over .300 that is an accomplishment in itself.

Finally I would like to present the indistinguishable proof of why Barry Bonds is the GREATEST baseball player ever. These are true facts and legendary stats that will not be beaten for a very long time if ever just like Cal Ripkens legendary games played record, these Bonds stats are the greatest ever and there is no disputing them, as this is actual proof and not thought or opinion, so without delay, ladies and gentlemen please check out these FACTS

Barry Bonds is a fourteen-time All-Star who started in left field eleven times - the most of any left fielder in baseball history (#2 Joe Medwick, 8 and #3 Stan Musial, 5).

1 - Barry Bonds was the first Pittsburgh Pirates player to hit at least 30 home runs and steal at least 30 bases in the same season (30 / 30 Club). Barry Bonds was the first National League player in history to record a 40 home run and 40 steal (40 / 40 Club) season.

2 - Barry Bonds was the National League batting champion in 2002 (Top 25) and the National League batting champion in 2004 (Top 25). When he won the second batting title, he became the only Giants player (from their time in New York and in San Francisco) with two in franchise history.

5 - Barry Bonds is one of only two players in Major League history with five 30 / 30 Club (30+ home runs & 30+ stolen bases in the same season) entries. The other player with five? Barry's father, Bobby Bonds.

7 - Barry Bonds won seven Most Valuable Player Awards during his career, the most by any player in history. Those tied for second with "only" three are Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Joe DiMaggio, Jimmie Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez and Mike Schmidt.

12 - Barry Bonds won twelve Silver Slugger Awards during his career, the most by any player at any position. Catcher Mike Piazza is second in award history with ten.

73 - Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs in 2001, a single season record that only Aaron Judge MIGHT BEAT

79 - Barry Bonds hit 79 total home runs after his 40th birthday, setting the Major League record for most home runs after turning forty, breaking the mark set previously by Carlton Fisk (72 HRs).

500 - Barry Bonds joined the 500 Home Runs Club on April 17, 2001, the seventeenth slugger to reach the plateau.

688 - Barry Bonds was intentionally walked 688 times during his career placing him firmly at the top of the Top 1,000 Intentional Base on Balls chart. The closest player on the chart has 300 few intentional walks!

762 - Barry Bonds hit 762 career home runs, one of only three players (755 - Hank Aaron & 714 - Babe Ruth) in Major League history with 700+ home runs.

2,558 - Barry Bonds was walked 2,558 times during his career placing him firmly at the top of the Top 1,000 Base on Balls chart. Those with him in the 2,000+ walks club are Rickey Henderson (2,190), Babe Ruth (2,062) and Ted Williams (2,021).

2,715 - Barry Bonds has played in 2,715 games in the left field position, the most by any left fielder ever Those in the "Iron Horse" outfield with him are Willie Mays with 2,829 games in center and Roberto Clemente with 2,306 games in right.

All the facts prove that Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player of ALL TIME

(MIC DROP)
Nd2400

Con

Thank you fanBoy for posting your final round. I will go right in to it.

First i will talk about the Hall of Fame. You are right it could take up to 10 years to get voted in. Barry Bonds in his 6 year without being voted in. You would think a guy with all those records would get voted in by his first or second year of his eligibility right? Wrong.... Because all those records Barry Bonds have is tainted by the swath of performance enhancing drugs.
Barry Bonds actually only receive 53.8% in this year voting. (9.) https://www.sbnation.com...
So i would question how you got the 66% without any sources to back up this claim. "Bonds and Clemens"s race against the clock in their bid for enshrinement does come down to their final year, there is little doubt the vote will be a referendum on the steroid era". (10.) https://www.nytimes.com...
According to the New York times they also have Bonds getting 53.8% in this year Hall of Fame. (11.) https://www.nytimes.com... So again I'm left wondering how and where you got your 66%. With no sources, i have to disregard this information and labeled it as false.

Pretty funny Vladimir Guerrero got (71.7%) in his first year on the ballot. Almost getting to 75% while Bonds is sitting at 53 to 54% in his 6th year. Bonds need three more years to get it. But it very unlikely he would get the votes needed to get in because of the steroid use. It also funny because the guys you mention MacGwyer, Sosa, Palmero, Arod, and Roger Clemens not in the Hall-of-Fame. Why? Because they all used Steroid. And the players who didn't use are getting in the Hall-of-Fame. I already mention some of the names in the first round. Players not using got in the Hall. Players who were voted in this year were Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, all have a common theme they didn't use steroid. So again the guys who did used cant be considered the greatest if they can't even make it to the Hall of Fame.

I already mention in the first round that steroid use were illegal during Barry Bonds playing days. "Anabolic steroids, which fall under the general category of
Performance Enhancing Drugs (PED), have been a banned substance for Major League Baseball (MLB) players since 1991". (12.) https://www.omicsonline.org...
So according to this statement Anabolic steroids were banned. So case closed...

Barry Bonds is not the greatest player ever nor will Ever be considered the greatest. So all those records you mention Bonds have is all for nothing if you can't get in the Hall-of-Fame. All those record Bonds have is tainted by the swath of performance enhancing drugs. So again he not even close on being the greatest player.

This So called Greatest player go to Babe Ruth. I already mention his accomplishment in the first round. Oh and by the way if steroid wasn't banned and if Ruth had used them what kind of records would he have? A 100 Home runs in a season. A 1,000 Career Home Runs just to name a few. So it very important to understand why steroid use is banned. Because it cheating. Not everyone use it and the simple fact is this Baseball banned steroid because it cheating. Barry Bonds is a cheater, and this is why him and soo many like him will never be voted in the Hall of Fame. Can't be considered the Greatest if you cheated the game and can't be voted in the Hall. So Case is Closed, my friend.

Vote Con Please!!!!!!!!!
Debate Round No. 3
26 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 1 week ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Emilrose// Mod action: Removed<

4 points to Pro (Conduct, Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: My knowledge on the topic of baseball is limited, but having read this debate in its entirety, it seems apparent to me that Pro won. It was on Con to show that Barry Bonds is *not* the greatest baseball player of all time, which he failed to do. According to Pro, the player in question batted over 300 times and this (by all accounts) is very impressive yet Con had no real response to it. Con outlined some other players who had decent stats, but Pro responded with reiterating that Bonds had the best stats in total. He also clarified that Bonds was technically doing nothing wrong by taking performance enhancing drugs as they were not deemed illegal. In addition, Cons arguments had some link errors (in which the link lead you to nothing). I'd also add that Cons conduct was a little poor, as he made comments such as 'finish you off' to Pro - which in a formal debate is inappropriate.

[*Reason for removal*] The voter is allowed to award conduct in instances where one side is insulting, forfeits a round, or violates a rule. Merely stating something that is deemed inappropriate in some forms of formal debate is not sufficient.
************************************************************************
Posted by Ragnar 2 weeks ago
Ragnar
Quick reminder: This was a debate, not a religion. A debate can prove Australia does not exist (actually by the standards of one voter, if con fails to absolutely prove it does exist, pro would win), but it does not mean anything outside of the debate. Barry Bonds could be admitted into the hall of fame tomorrow, and the time period of review inside the debate would not shift.
Posted by Nd2400 2 weeks ago
Nd2400
Yeah they do. He only retiring his # at SF not all of baseball. I will guarantee you bonds not going to get 22% jump next year. He will not make it case closed.
Wow the HR record. How did he get that record? Oh yeah that's right he cheated by using illegal drugs.. Case closed....
Posted by FanboyMctroll 2 weeks ago
FanboyMctroll
They don't retire a number and not put him in the Hall of Fame.

By this time next year I will be saying "Apology accepted" to you

Bonds is the greatest, his numbers prove it (apology accepted)

1 Barry Bonds 762
2 Hank Aaron 755
3 Babe Ruth 714
Posted by Nd2400 2 weeks ago
Nd2400
Don't let emil vote fool you.
She vote bomb me because i won't against her last night. So she didn't like that so she went against me on this debate.

By the way you could pick up that (mic) because he going to the hall of fame that's a fact. Babe Ruth is so much better without steroid or with that cheating drug.
Posted by FanboyMctroll 2 weeks ago
FanboyMctroll
Barry Bonds will have his #25 retired by the San Francisco Giants this summer. That's one step closer to being in the Hall of Fame. How many retired player numbers are not in the Hall? NONE

Bonds will be in the Hall next season

mic drop
Posted by Actions_Speak 3 weeks ago
Actions_Speak
That"s a large burden of proof, made practically impossible because if his steroid use. It was close but if I could vote it"d be 3-0 com because of BoP
Posted by Nd2400 3 weeks ago
Nd2400
which links are you talking about?
Posted by Ragnar 3 weeks ago
Ragnar
The links inside the debate are broken. When copying from former debates, the links need to be updated one by one (since the displayed text is just the domain with "..." after it, that is what is initially copied).
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Sui_Generis 3 weeks ago
Sui_Generis
FanboyMctrollNd2400Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I have little to no prior knowledge of professional baseball. As such, I came in totally willing to be persuaded by Pro. However, I found Con's arguments denying the affirmation of the resolution too damning for Pro to meet the relatively high bar of proving the resolution. As Ragnar said, Pro's case hinged on the homerun record and that steroids were legal PEDs as well as immaterial in Bonds's batting average. Con claimed to provide a source denying this, but his own source contradicts him, showing that there was a statistically insignificant difference, meaning Pro's point of Bonds's high batting average remaining impressive stands. Several of Pro's arguments were very compelling, including many of the statistics (especially the intentional walks) however in the end the standard of success for Pro is proving Bonds was the greatest. In this Pro did not succeed. Had the debate BOP rested on proving BB *WASN'T* the greatest, the outcome would very possibly have been different. But, alas
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 weeks ago
Ragnar
FanboyMctrollNd2400Tied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Given the talk of fair play rules, I find it surprising that con intentionally delayed key arguments until after pro could no longer respond (and stated his intent to do this... it wasn't an organic reply to pro's closing statements). That said pro never recovered fully from con's first round. Pro's case hinged upon a home run record and that steroids were not cheating. Con countered with the fact that steroids were a performance enhancing drug which were already universally banned, that players got away with it at the time didn't change the crime and inflated records associated. Con also did an important thing in this type of debate, gave comparisons to further cast doubt on if said item in question is objectively the best. Con did not need to prove that any one of them is the best, but merely deny clear affirmation of the resolution. Sources I am leaving tied due to the link errors, had they been working pro hypothetically could have refuted them or been motivated to use his own.