The Instigator
batmanfan12
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Maikuru
Con (against)
Winning
39 Points

Batman vs Superman

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 8 votes the winner is...
Maikuru
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/2/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 19,336 times Debate No: 36243
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (8)

 

batmanfan12

Pro

In this debate I will take Batman's side and my opponent will take on Superman's side. I am a fan of both but I still think Batman could defeat Superman. May the better hero and debaterwin!
Maikuru

Con

I thank my opponent for challenging me personally to debate this topic; such challenges are always an honor. I also want to thank the audience for sticking around for what is sure to be a joy ride of a time!

My opponent has clarified in the comments that he will be arguing that Batman would, rather than could, defeat Superman in a fight. Thus, I will be arguing that Superman would defeat Batman in a fight.

My opponent has not specified, so it can be assumed that all terms retain their common and appropriate meanings, the characters in question are from their standard comic book canon, and general debating rules apply.

Good luck to my opponent and he may present his case.
Debate Round No. 1
batmanfan12

Pro

First I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting.

Now, Superman has his weakness towards Kryptonite. At the end of the movie, Justice League Doom, Superman gives Batman some Kryptonite. With Batman's brilliant mind and that Kryptonite, he could create a device that would blast or maybe shoot Kryptonite. Maybe a Kryptonite dart gun or a Kryptonite grenade. Batman is also one of superman's closest friend, so he would know Superman's emotional weakness' too. Finally, cause of Batman's trust issues he created devices and plans to maim or (if necessary) kill all members of the Justice League. Since Superman is in the Justice League he would already have a plan to defeat him. In a fight he has a plan where as Superman would have nothing besides his powers.With Batman's plan or device and the Kryptonite weapon, it would render killing Superman a lot easier.

I look forward to my opponents reply.
Maikuru

Con

I am going to assume everyone is familiar with Superman and Batman have. If not...what kind of childhood did you have?

Anyway, my opponent presents three arguments in favor of Batman’s triumph over Superman. First, he believes Batman would create some type of kryptonite device to defeat Superman. Next, he believes Batman would have a plan in place. Lastly, he says that Batman would prey on Superman’s emotional weaknesses.

Luckily for me, this exact scenario already happened!


The Set-Up

In the Batman: Hush storyline, Superman is possessed by the villainous Poison Ivy, a femme fatale that uses plants and pheromones to control people’s minds. In this case, she infected Superman and ordered him to kill Batman. The two clash and from the looks of things...Batman kicks Superman’s butt.

*Gasp*

Why am I about to show a fight where the Dark Knight appears to wipe the floor with the Man of Steel? Let’s find out, shall we?


1. Batman Uses Kryptonite

When the fight starts, Batman is indeed wearing a kryptonite ring. Thus, Pro is correct, Batman would likely use kryptonite in this fight...




The Catch

…and it wouldn’t matter. Note what Batman says at the bottom of the page right before the fight starts: “You don’t come to Metropolis and not be prepared for him.” In other words, Batman believes having a kryptonite ring with him is preparation for a fight with Superman. Not a kryptonite dart gun or grenade, as my opponent hypothesized, just a ring that only works if Superman is within a few feet of him. Since the ring barely slows Superman down in this fight, it seems kryptonite would not be Batman’s saving grace here.

Also, take another look at that quote. Batman says he brings the ring with him...when he goes to Metropolis. That means he does not carry the ring with him regularly. As there is nothing in this debate to suggest that either combatant would have preparation time, there is no reason to believe Batman would have any kryptonite with him.


2. Batman Would Have A Plan

During the fight, Batman activates a number of traps he had in store for Superman, including his kryptonite ring, a supersonic device [https://tinyurl.com...], blinding lights, and the city’s electrical grid [https://tinyurl.com...]. Batman was clearly prepared for this fight, had Superman exactly where he wanted him, and Superman...

The Catch

...ends up with a little ouchie. Maybe a boo-boo.




That’s right, for all his planning and gadgets and kryptonite, Superman's response is just "You hurt me." Not kill or incapacitate, just hurt. Considering the fight ends with Superman holding a car above Batman’s head, it seems as though being hurt doesn’t slow Superman down much.


3. Batman Would Manipulate Emotions

Just before Superman drops that car and creates a whole new meaning to the term Batmobile, Batman points out that Lois Lane is in danger and only Superman can save her. He stopped Superman in his tracks and used his emotions to manipulate him...

The Catch

...with a little help from his friend.




Catwoman was Batman’s accomplice in this fight, kidnapping Lois as a contingency plan in case things got rough. Of course, as this debate only concerns these two heroes and not their entire crew, we’d have to assume that any such plan Batman has this time around would have to be implemented by him. This means Batman would have to execute such a plan alone without Superman’s knowledge and prior to the fight actually beginning, none of which seems likely. Not to mention the plan would have to someone incapacitate Superman in the process, which Batman has proved incapable of doing.


Why Batman Would Lose

Despite everything I’ve said so far, you may be saying to yourself that Batman at least held his own in that fight, so perhaps he’d have a chance here. You’d be wrong. Why is that? Because throughout that fight, Superman was holding back. Remember, Superman was being controlled by Poison Ivy at this point and was fighting her influence the entire time. In fact, throughout the fight, Batman mentions to himself how out of his league he is and that Superman wasn’t even trying to fight back:

"If Clark wanted to, he could use his superspeed and squish me into the cement." [1]
"I have to keep him contained so he can't fly." [2]
"If I hit him again, I'll shatter every bone in my hand." [2]
"Arctic breath. He's holding back as much as he can..." [3]
"He can't be stopped. But he can be stunned." [4]

This fight was the best case scenario for Batman: he had kryptonite, had a trap set, sprung it flawlessly, emotionally manipulated his opponent, and had an accomplice. This fight was also the worst case scenario for Superman: he was fighting someone he didn’t want to fight and held back the entire time. The result? Superman was kind of hurt a little bit. Can you imagine what would have happened had Superman actually tried?


In Summation

It is clear that if Superman actually wanted to defeat Batman, he would. Batman said so himself. If Batman can’t beat him under the best possible conditions, what hope would he have here, in a generic “who would win” debate? The answer is none.


1. https://tinyurl.com...
2. https://tinyurl.com...
3. https://tinyurl.com...
4. https://tinyurl.com...

Debate Round No. 2
batmanfan12

Pro

I thank Con for his examples. But in that fight Batman probably was holding back too. Batman only wanted to hurt him cause he was being controlled. If Batman wanted to kill him he would have a better weapon and a better plan. I'm not familiar with that story line so I ask Con this: How was Superman freed of his mind control?
Now for new points.

Superman loses his powers when he is exposed to a red sun. Batman could trap him in a chamber that would take his powers away using the rays of red sun like in Superman 2. Maybe expose him to Kryptonite then trap him. Since Batman is rich and brilliant it is very probable. But it must be made of something to withstand Superman's strength. It maybe could be made of Kryptonite to weaken him. Another way Batman could make use of the red sun effect would be maybe a gun that emits the rays from a red sun. That could work too. With Batman's money, mind and creativity there are many ways Batman could use Kryptonite or the red sun to his advantage.
Maikuru

Con

In the previous round, I presented the best possible evidence in a Batman vs Superman debate: a fight between Batman and Superman. In it, three things were established. First, Superman was holding back. Second, Batman tried every tactic Pro mentioned in his round and they did nothing. Third, Batman would have been killed if Catwoman wasn’t there to save him.

At this point, the debate is essentially over. If Superman wanted to beat Batman, he very clearly would. However, my opponent argues that Batman was also holding back in that fight. Allow me to explain why that is false, as well as why it wouldn’t matter either way.


Was Batman Holding Back?

Nothing in the storyline and images I presented indicate that Batman was holding back. To start, we see him using the exact tactics Pro suggested in Round 2: kryptonite, planning, and emotional manipulation. These things obviously all failed, but if we are to believe Pro’s case, the fact that Batman used them at all means he was fighting to win.

Also, consider the quotes I presented last round. These are all directly from Batman during the fight:

"If Clark wanted to, he could use his superspeed and squish me into the cement."
"If I hit him again, I'll shatter every bone in my hand."
"He can't be stopped. But he can be stunned."

Pro ignored these quotes earlier but they obviously suggest that Batman was aware he could lose the fight at any moment and was being pushed to his physical limit.

However, let’s give Batman the benefit of the doubt for a second and say he was holding back. This means that even though he believed Superman had the capacity to kill him, he did not fight to his full capacity. Therefore, Pro’s counter-argument that Batman would kick his plan into a higher gear in a real fight is false, as Batman has already demonstrated an unwillingness to fight harder against his friend even when his life was on the line.

In short, whether or not Batman was holding back in the fight I provided is irrelevant. In either scenario, he would be handily defeated.


Pro’s New Argument

My opponent lists off some new theoretical devices he believes Batman could use to do some damage. What he continues to fail to consider, however, is the time and preparation needed to even conceive of such devices, let alone create and implement them. Given that this debate does not specify what kind of time frame these characters will be under, we can assume that both are simultaneously interested in defeating the other. In that case, exactly how much time would Batman have to work with?

According to the Flash, who embodies the speed force of the DC Universe, Superman can run at least 2,000 miles a second [1, Powers and Abilities - Speed][2]. Considering even the most generous estimates have Metropolis (Superman’s home) and Gotham City (Batman’s home) at no more than 200 miles apart [3, In Relation to Gotham City], Superman would be at Batman’s location in roughly 0.1 seconds. This is obviously not enough time for Batman to form a coherent thought, let alone construct some anti-Superman device. He would be disabled before the fight could even begin.

Even if Batman is once again given the benefit of the doubt and we argue that Batman already owns some specially designed weapon, he would be hopeless in terms of using it against his foe for three reasons. First, Superman’s reflexes are such that Batman could not even aim at him [4].




Second, Superman is capable of vibrating his body so quickly that strikes and energy pass right through him [5].




Lastly, if he so wished, Superman could simply move so quickly that humans appear to be frozen in time [6].




So, with an immobile and unaware Batman before him, what could Superman do to incapacitate his opponent? The possibilities are endless, but simpler is probably better [7].




In Summation

My opponent has dropped a number of key arguments in my favor, including the fact that Batman does not regularly carry kryptonite, the kryptonite he does possess was ineffective, and Batman admits that Superman could defeat him if he chose to. However, even ignoring these dropped arguments, I have demonstrated that not only would Superman defeat Batman in theory, but he has already done so in practice.

Note: Pro asked last round how Superman was freed of his mind control. Superman broke free upon saving Lois.



Debate Round No. 3
batmanfan12

Pro

I thank Con for his points. They are hard to beat.
But there is a movie where Batman beats Superman, Batman Returns part2(Superman was not in part1).
Superman is sent by the government to kill Batman. Both are going try hard. Batman used sonic devices to stun Superman by injuring his sonic hearing. Batman also used electric gloves too wich gave very violent shocks injuring Superman and disorienting him. Batman at the time wore a suit that gave him strength and durability. He attached a thermal bomb to Superman's chest exploding and inguring him. Batman then gave Superman a dose of Kryptonite dust. That dust made Superman age to about 55. Batman told Superman to remember the one man who defeating him. He then faked his death leaving Superman old, alone and defeated on a psychical(aged up 30 years) and mental(believing he was responsible for his best friends death) level.

I enjoyed debating with Con, he was a force opponent. I still respect Superman though. I thank Con for his time.
Maikuru

Con

Thanks to Pro for challenging me to this debate and to the readers for sticking around. Allow me to quickly address Pro’s final round before summarizing the debate.

1. Pro has dropped all of his prior arguments. Please consider them conceded.

2. Pro has not addressed any of my rebuttals or contentions. Extend all arguments.

3. Pro’s entire final round is a new argument. Standard debating protocol dictates that no new arguments are to be presented in the final round.

4. As I explained in Round 1, this debate is to cover both characters in their “standard comic book canon.” The animated film Pro describes, like the comic it is based off of, is not considered canon. Instead, it is told as a hypothetical tale about what may have happened if Batman retired after the first Robin’s death [1].

5. The fight Pro describes isn’t even resolutional, as Superman was not trying to defeat Batman, he was trying to talk to him. Once again, it is made clear multiple times during the issue that if Superman ever wanted to stop Batman, he could.


In Closing

By dropping all of his arguments, my arguments, and presenting a final new argument that isn’t canon, my opponent literally has no case. It is just as well, as I showed proof in Round 2 that Superman both would and could defeat Batman. Easily.




Thanks for reading!


1. https://en.wikipedia.org...

Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DarkerClaw 3 years ago
DarkerClaw
While I agree with Pro in his opinion that he would beat superman, I think the fight described needs better parameters, that is to say it needs a more definite reason for the fight, such as has one of the heroes crossed over to the dark side etc... but I'm sorry to say having read this debate I have to vote Con, I do not share his opinion, he simply made the better argument.
Posted by Nerd_in_a_Trenchcoat 3 years ago
Nerd_in_a_Trenchcoat
Dark knight returns, anyone?
Posted by Maikuru 3 years ago
Maikuru
I am legitimately pleasantly surprised with the amount of voting on this debate. The recent changes to the website had me pretty openly disheartened with future voting prospects but I consider 4 votes a good showing.

Thank you for everyone who took the time to read and vote on this debate. It was very enjoyable.
Posted by Maikuru 3 years ago
Maikuru
Thank you! I look forward to our debate.
Posted by batmanfan12 3 years ago
batmanfan12
I will change it. I am a big fan of your marvel vs DC debates
Posted by Maikuru 3 years ago
Maikuru
As a side note, 5 rounds of debate are a lot and I can promise you that no one real read it. 4 rounds would be perfect.
Posted by batmanfan12 3 years ago
batmanfan12
Don't mind at all and thank you.
Posted by Maikuru 3 years ago
Maikuru
I understand. Thank you for challenging me. I will accept but I am currently out of the country and have limited free time. If you do not mind, I will accept this debate on Sunday.
Posted by batmanfan12 3 years ago
batmanfan12
Their are repercussions
Posted by Maikuru 3 years ago
Maikuru
Are both characters intent on defeating the other? Do they care about the repercussions of their actions or is the question just who would beat the other if they wanted to?
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 3 years ago
Krazzy_Player
batmanfan12MaikuruTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Clear and convincing arguments by Con which were backed by reliable sources where Pro failed to provide sources and counter Con's arguments.
Vote Placed by yay842 3 years ago
yay842
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: clear winner, Pro didn't even try.
Vote Placed by MikeyMike 3 years ago
MikeyMike
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro had no valid rebuttals for Con's arguments.
Vote Placed by Hemanth_Nambiar 3 years ago
Hemanth_Nambiar
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con destroyed pro.
Vote Placed by rajun 3 years ago
rajun
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: I agree with the previous voter..don't want to write so much...
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Presentation, presentation, presentation. Con dominated on that alone. Plus refuting pros claims far more effectively. Pros case was built too much around the idea of Batman doing something awesome, without a sense for what it'd be, or his motivations for doing so. In a fight I'd by default give all style points to the one that's not an all powerful alien God, but such doesn't win the hypothetical fight. (Agreed with pro before, con after... but I wanted to give him something for trying this nearly impossible debate against the 'Superman wins' debater.)
Vote Placed by LevelWithMe 3 years ago
LevelWithMe
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Reasons for voting decision: Head shot. Con addressed Pro's points, without having any of his own contentions rebutted. Con's arguments were more organized. Con provided many citations. Pro provided none. Pro could have made a better argument if he set the terms and restrictions of the debate. There were other arguments he could have used as well(contending the legitimacy and consistency of "canon"), but these were left unused. Pro clearly didn't think Con's arguments over thoroughly, or investigate counterarguments before instigating this debate.
Vote Placed by MassiveDump 3 years ago
MassiveDump
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Derp.