The Instigator
ApatheticVV
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
FuzzyCatPotato
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

Belief in White Privilege

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
FuzzyCatPotato
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/29/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,032 times Debate No: 101541
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (43)
Votes (2)

 

ApatheticVV

Con

In my opinion, White Privilege is a nonsense argument made up by the left in order to discredit others. What do you think?
FuzzyCatPotato

Pro

The idea behind white privilege is very easy to understand: on average, white Americans have it better than nonwhite Americans.

White privilege has two main components: economic and social. Let's open with economics:

ECONOMICS

The average white has more economic clout than the average nonwhite. ***

* HOUSING: Black families making $100,000 typically live in the kinds of neighborhoods inhabited by white families making $30,000. This is largely due to past racist federal & local housing policies. [Atlantic]
* INCOME: The median white has an income of $57k, compared to $39k for Hispanics and $33k for blacks. [BI]
* POVERTY: 9% of whites live in poverty, compared to 24% of blacks and 21% of Hispanics. [KFF]
* WEALTH: The median white has $141k in assets, compared to $13k for Hispanics and $11k for blacks. [CNN]
* HIGH SCHOOL: 87% of whites graduate high school, compared to 73% of blacks and 76% of Hispanics. [NCES]
* COLLEGE: 47% of whites had college degrees, compared to 33% of African Americans and 23% of Hispanics. [HR, 538]
* EMPLOYMENT: Black college graduates seem to have about the same job application success rate as white college graduate felons. Or: blacks and white criminals (!) have an equal playing field. [SP]

It should be clear that the average white has substantial advantages over the average black -- they are likely to start higher up on the food chain AND to have an easier time climbing the food chain.

*** Exception: Asians make more than whites, primarily because Asian immigrants are wealthy, educated Asian emigrants. Coincidentally, this is why Americans think Asians are smart and successful. Sample skew is a helluva drug.

SOCIAL

I won't talk too much about this, unless it's controversial.

Racism exists. Racism is bigotry. Bigotry hurts people. There's vastly more bigotry against blacks than bigotry against whites. [Please don't ask for a citation!] And the bigotry against blacks more often comes from positions of power -- eg, racist federal redlining, Representative Steve King -- than the bigotry against whites -- eg, disabled kid kidnapping.

In short: the "racism balance" leans heavily against blacks.

ENDNOTE

I hope this is a pleasant debate, and hope further that Con gains an understanding of what activists mean when they say "white privilege". The phrase is not -- or should not be -- an accusation, but rather a statement of fact. White privilege doesn't imply white guilt. It's hard to blame individual whites for a problem that's been going on for 300 years and has occurred in every state and in federal office. The phrase isn't a call to shame, but a call to action. It asks people of all races to work towards a more equal United States.

In short: "White privilege" is a call for racial equality, not hate.

REFERENCES

[BI] http://www.businessinsider.com...
[CNN] http://money.cnn.com...
[Atlantic] https://www.theatlantic.com...
[NCES] https://nces.ed.gov...
[HR] http://hechingerreport.org...
[538] https://fivethirtyeight.com...
[SP] https://thesocietypages.org...
[KFF] http://kff.org...
Debate Round No. 1
ApatheticVV

Con

The problem with that is most White people are actually doing worse. Trends in key economic and demographic indicators provide some context for the experiences and outlook of blacks today. While there has been clear progress in closing the white-black gap in some areas, particularly when it comes to high school completion rates, decades-old black-white gaps in economic well-being persist and have even widened in some cases. Here is a statistic; https://gyazo.com...

So you are correct, but the question is, why are blacks making less money?

Blacks are making less money not because of racial preferences, but simply because they are not looking enough. I am not saying that they are lazy because if anything they are more active than whites with jobs. The BLS data show that the unemployment rate for Hispanics (or Latino), 16 years and older, seasonally adjusted, was 6.3% in October. Blacks make up 13 percent of the U.S population and whites make up around 77 percent. So i wont do the numbers, but if you take the unemployment of Blacks v Whites in numbers, then statistically there are more Blacks. So if anything, Blacks have a bigger privilege than whites.

To address the "Social" part, let me start with the definition of Bigot as sited from google; "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions." Racism is not Bigotry. I could be intolerant towards your opinion but still not be racist. For example, if a black guy were to walk up to me and he wanted to have a perfectly reasonable debate and i didn't listen, would that be called Bigotry? Or would that be called Racism? And even if Bigotry hurt people, if someone else's intolerance to listen to an opinion offends you, than thats nobody else's problem but your own.

Furthermore, most people cant actually define what exactly they think White Privilege is when they sure love to argue that it exists which in turn just immediately discredits them. In response to "A call for racial equality", i have a couple things to say to that.

1: Blacks, as i just proved, have a bigger advantage economically than whites.
2: Blacks have the Liberals on their side, which is insanely powerful in on its own because of its media influence.
3: If it isn't about hate tell me why those same people, the people that are chanting in the streets, are/were going around and burning American flags, breaking random store restaurants windows, and physically injuring people from an opposing party. If anything, that right there, is Bigotry. Burning American flags is the worse of it too, its just absolutely disgusting to see those people burn down a symbol of something that stands for so much they believe in.

Anyways, getting off track. I am not saying you personally are doing these things. I am saying however that the people you defend are. I also do hope this is a pleasant debate and hope you understand where i come from.
FuzzyCatPotato

Pro

I will respond to Con's arguments in turn, then advance my central premise.

"WHITE PEOPLE ARE DOING WORSE"

Con's evidence fails to suggest that whites are doing worse. Their chart -- https://gyazo.com... -- shows that the black-white income gap has continued almost unchanged since 1967 -- *two years* after LBJ enacted laws against literal Jim Crow segregation! This, if anything, is proof that black disprivilege continues to exist. Consider that in Con's chart the white:black income ratio was 44700:24700 in 1963 -- meaning whites made 80.9% more -- and 71300:43300 in 2012 -- meaning whites made 64.7% more. Progress of 13% in 45 years is hardly progress, especially when the baseline is *segregation*!

Do you agree that if white people make 180.9% of what black people make, this is inequality?

"BLACKS ARE MAKING LESS MONEY ... BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT LOOKING ENOUGH"

This is a flawed statement. It's possible that blacks have a harder time gaining employment because they're not searching -- but Con presents no evidence to support this. And remember: "Black college graduates have about the same job application success rate as white college graduate felons. [SP]" Part of the reason blacks can't get jobs is because they get rejected -- for being black! I'm not arguing that employers are explicitly racist, but their hiring patterns suggest that they may be implicitly racist: they might think that a black is less likely to be a good employee, and turn him away. This becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, where a black can't get a job, and so has no work experience, and so can't get a job. A viscous cycle.

Do you agree that if, blacks are locked out of employment, this is inequality?

"UNEMPLOYMENT OF BLACKS V WHITES [...] THERE ARE MORE BLACKS [...] BLACKS HAVE A BIGGER PRIVILEGE THAN WHITES"

This is a misunderstanding of unemployment. Unemployment occurs when someone can't find a job -- it's not a privilege. If you could not find a job, Con, would you consider that to be a privilege?

"RACISM IS NOT BIGOTRY. [...] IF SOMEONE ELSE'S [...] OPINION OFFENDS YOU, THAN THATS NOBODY ELSE'S PROBLEM BUT YOUR OWN."

Con misunderstands. I'm not talking about triggered SJWs. I'm talking about REAL racism that tears people down. Consider: Cyberbullying kills people, because it makes them feel worthless. When a racist calls you a nigger, that makes you feel worthless. When someone thinks you're stupid because you're black, that makes you feel worthless. When people think you're violent because you're black, that makes you feel worthless. When someone denies you a job because you're black -- see above! -- that makes you feel worthless.*

If Con has some time, I recommend they read the study "The Effect of Racism on Black Mortality and Life Expectancy" [CONF]. The study correlates online racism with black expectancy in locations throughout the United States. In short: More racism means shorter black lifespan. Racism like this makes black's poor living conditions (read: bad houses, bad neighborhoods, bad schools) even worse [DEEP].

In short: Racism is bigotry. Bigotry hurts.

"IF A BLACK GUY [...] WANTED TO HAVE A [...] DEBATE AND I DIDN'T LISTEN, WOULD THAT BE [...] BIGOTRY [...] OR [...] RACISM?"

Neither.

Racism is when you pre-judge someone by their color. (And racism is a form of bigotry.) If you decided "I'm not gonna debate this guy BECAUSE I'M BUSY", then it's not racism. If instead you decided, "I'm not gonna debate this guy BECAUSE HE'S BLACK", then it's racism.

Do you see why this isn't racism?

"IF IT ISN'T ABOUT HATE TELL ME WHY [...] PEOPLE [...] WERE GOING AROUND AND BURNING AMERICAN FLAGS"

Because they're ignorant or dumb. Same reason people are racist: They don't know better, or they don't want to.

CENTRAL THESIS

White privilege exists -- nonwhites have it worse, and whites have it better. That's just a fact, no moral strings attached. Con doesn't really dispute that there are multiple economic ways in which nonwhites start lower on the ladder. Thank you.

REFERENCES:

[CONF] https://paa.confex.com...
[DEEP] https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu...
Debate Round No. 2
ApatheticVV

Con

Alright, if you want to talk excluding moral feelings and 100% fact, ill do so.

Whites doing worse response:
That chart is there not to prove that you are wrong but rather the opposite, which is what i actually said.

Blacks are making less money response:
https://gyazo.com...
That is a chart that tells us that blacks are again, more unemployed than whites. That tells me that they are doing something wrong to make themselves that way, and before you say "Must be a white/racial issue", here is a poll that suggests otherwise: https://gyazo.com... meaning that its just a fact that other people believe this.

Unemployment of Blacks v Whites argument:
I have absolutely no idea where that came from...but the answer is no.

Racism is not Bigotry argument:
The people that you are defending are triggered SJW. Obviously, real racism is bad, you dont have to be a genius to figure that out. However, you are defending the same ideologies that those triggered SJW's are rioting on the streets for. Obviously, you are more educated and i dont believe that you personally would be an SJW. Also, only actual racists would decline someone for being black, and the argument was started over the questioning of white privilege. And yes, i do know that White privilege has everything to do with white being privileged but it has nothing to do with being racist, two different topics.

"If a Black guy" scenical argument:

Racism is not bigotry, because like i said, disagreeing/not listening to an opinion doesn't equate to racism, It just demonstrates a lack of care for an argument.

Also, let me add another interesting argument. "why all this left-wing talk about white privilege? The major reason is in order to portray blacks as victims. This achieves two huge goals for the Left " one political, the other philosophical. The political goal is to ensure that blacks continue to view America as racist. The Left knows that the only way to retain political power in America is to perpetuate the belief among black Americans that their primary problem is white racism. Only then will blacks continue to regard the Left and the Democrats as indispensable."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com...

Central argument: I feel like you are getting Racism mixed up with privilege. Otherwise, i used absolutely no moral ground here. Good debate.
FuzzyCatPotato

Pro

I will again respond to Con's arguments in turn, then advance my central premise, and then explain why you must vote Pro.

BLACK UNEMPLOYMENT

Con presents a first graph (https://gyazo.com...) that shows that black unemployment is higher than white unemployment. I have never contested this. In fact, this is a central part of my case: Unemployment is a disprivilege, and blacks are unemployed due to subconscious and implicit racism that employers have against blacks. This bias may not even be intentional: racism might just be so ingrained that we do it without thinking. Look to the academic study I presented in Round 1 in the [SP] evidence, which shows that black college grads have the same job success rate as white felon college grads. This shows that the system is biased against blacks.

In short: whites demonstrably have employment privilege, and Con fails to contest the [SP] evidence that proves so.

Con presents a second graph (https://gyazo.com...) that shows approval of interracial marriage among different segments of the American populace. 86% of Americans are OK with interracial marriage. However, this does not prove Con's argument that Americans aren't racist. My [SP] evidence shows that, whether they intend to or not, employers are strongly biased against blacks. And even if we equate "approval with interracial marriage" to "absolutely not racist whatsoever", that would leave 14% of Americans -- about 1 in 6 -- as racist. At best, Con's evidence doesn't support their case; at worst, Con's evidence supports my case.

In short: Racism actually happens, regardless of what Americans say they believe.

Con asks where my evidence came from: again, it comes from the SP study mentioned in Round 1.

RACISM AND BIGOTRY

Con asserts that "The people that you are defending are triggered SJW." This is hard to believe. As I noted above, racism is real and hurtful. Racism tears you down, whether you get offended or not. Con: imagine if, every day, people thought you were stupid and violent and criminal because of the way you looked. Even the most stoic person who shrugs insults off will start to break down under constant public prejudice. As I noted above, cyberbullying pushes people to suicide -- and racism, like cyberbullying, is just hurtful harassment that pushes people towards depression. I'm not defending people who blow up and start screaming and crying about oppression. I'm defending the good, honest people of the world, who want other people to look at them without prejudice in their eyes.

And lest we forget: active racism results in blacks being denied jobs and houses and basic human necessities. And this racism is still present in society. As I showed in [CONF] and [DEEP], racism provably shortens black lifespans. To put it bluntly: Racism is alive and well, and it's killing people.

LEFT WANTS BLACKS TO THINK OF SELVES AS VICTIMS

It might be true that it's to the left's advantage to make blacks think that they are victims.

It's also true that blacks are victims of economic disprivilege and actual racism.

Just because the left wants it to be true, does not mean that it is not true.

Consider: Whites evangelicals consider themselves to be victims [EVAN]. This is to the Right's advantage, because evangelicals see themselves as victims of the liberal media and the secular government. Does that mean that it's false, just because it's to the Right's advantage? Or does its truth or falsity stand and fall on its own ground?

SUMMARY

I have provided 7 areas in which nonwhites are economically disprivileged and whites are economically privileged. Con has failed to rebut any of my 8 studies on this issue. In short: on average, whites start with easier lives and advance themselves more easily.

I have also shown that, yes, racism IS bigotry, that racism hurts people, and that racism particularly hurts nonwhites.

Both the economic system of the United States and the societal structures of America are biased against blacks.

This means, conversely, that the economic system and societal structures of America give whites an advantage.

This advantage is called privilege.

Since whites have more advantage, they have more privilege.

As such: white privilege exists.

Thank you.

PERSONAL MESSAGE TO CON

Even if I have not persuaded you, I hope that I have opened your mind to the possibility that white privilege exists. I don't much like SJWs myself. But: when whites have twice the income and ten times the wealth that blacks do, and when blacks can't get good educations or good jobs, then I believe that racial inequality is a bigger problem than that bunch of whiny liberals.

In short: Racial equality is a good fight. Don't let the bad apples turn you away from the truth. =)

REFERENCES

[EVAN] https://www.theatlantic.com...
Debate Round No. 3
43 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FuzzyCatPotato 1 year ago
FuzzyCatPotato
Good debate. I hope you spend some time reading on the concept of white privilege. There's a broad and deep scientific literature on the subject. :)
Posted by FuzzyCatPotato 1 year ago
FuzzyCatPotato
@Mharman: I provided scientific sources. You're the one who rejected them because you disagreed with them. Who's the real SJW?
Posted by Mharman 1 year ago
Mharman
People aren't implicitly racist, don't be an SJW.
Posted by mplo 1 year ago
mplo
I tend to agree somewhat with the idea that White Privilege is made up by the Left, as a means of demonizing all, or many whites per se. Because there are many whites who are little or no better off than the blacks or other non-whites here in the United States, I refuses to buy into the "White Privilege." canard.

White privilege exists up to a point--better-off whites are more protected than poorer whites against things such as unemployment, bad housing, crime, police brutality and being in the precarious position of losing everything, or most of what they have in the event that they have a stroke of bad luck, or in the event of a severe economic downturn.
Posted by ApatheticVV 1 year ago
ApatheticVV
If everyone is Implicitly racist, then how is your argument valid?
Posted by FuzzyCatPotato 1 year ago
FuzzyCatPotato
@debater: Almost everyone is implicitly racist. Yes, that includes nonwhites.
Posted by debater12332 1 year ago
debater12332
@fuzzycatpotato I think you are misrepresenting the facts. First off, the implicit bias test is very unreliable. If you take the test twice you will get an entirely different results, so how can you be sure which one is right? Also, what if I took it and it said that I had no preference towards race, would you believe the test? Or would you think I cheated? In one of your other comments you said that people have implicit bias against black because they perceive them as less worthy. Who are these other people? Are they other blacks, Asians, Hispanics, or are you saying that only whites have implicit bias? I see a real double standard here.
Posted by ApatheticVV 1 year ago
ApatheticVV
That is all i gathered from the site because that's what it literally does. And apparently, i answered to fast so it didn't give me an answer.
Posted by FuzzyCatPotato 1 year ago
FuzzyCatPotato
If that's truly all you gathered from the site, then I don't think you understood the study.
Posted by ApatheticVV 1 year ago
ApatheticVV
I also took a look at that website, and it legit is the most racist thing ive seen on the web if anything else. It literally asks you to classify black people and white people into a forced column of bad or good.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Mharman 1 year ago
Mharman
ApatheticVVFuzzyCatPotatoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Actually... I'm going to leave a null vote, and come back to it in 3-7 days. Then I'll post my RFD.
Vote Placed by Political.Questioneer 1 year ago
Political.Questioneer
ApatheticVVFuzzyCatPotatoTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Both were pretty even except for the convincing arguments where pro had slightly hedged out the con due to his great ability to refute the con's claims. The con also mentioned "in my opinion" don't mention opinion it makes it more susceptible to being seen as false. Con would've have won the convincing argument point if he had included how businesses actually look to have a more diverse staff and that the huge amount of black crime prevents companies from hiring them. Pro 3-0