The Instigator
BrendanD19
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
cognitire
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Bernie Sanders Supporters Should Not Support Hillary Clinton if He Loses the Democratic Nomination

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
BrendanD19
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 3/10/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 532 times Debate No: 87935
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

BrendanD19

Pro

This debate will be about whether Bernie Sanders supporters, in the event he loses the Democratic nomination, should or should not support Hillary Clinton in the General Election, and should instead support Green Party candidate Jill Stein.

The format shall be as follows
Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Opening Arguments
Round 3: Rebuttles and Further Arguments
Round 4: Rebuttles (NO NEW ARGUMENTS!)
Round 5: Final Rebuttles and Conclusion

I shall be debating the Pro and that Bernie supporters should not vote for Hillary Clinton in the event he loses the nomination.
cognitire

Con

This debate seems to be for democrats, and assuming Sanders doesn't pull ahead somehow, which would be favorable to me but seems unlikely.

Sanders supporters should vote for Clinton, because not voting means almost certainly guaranteeing a republican president.

Hillary Clinton may not be as good as Sanders, but she is not a criminal and she is definitely better than Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, and Marco Rubio.

Issues Clinton and Sanders disagree:
Marijuana
Middle East War

Issues Clinton and Sanders agree:
Campaign Finance
Immigration
Minimum Wage
Health care
Climate Change
Gun Control
College Cost
Sexual Assault
Criminal Justice
Social Security
Wall Street
Trade

If you didn't vote for Clinton who would you vote for since Sanders wouldn't be running as an independent and even if he did he would defiantly lose?
Debate Round No. 1
BrendanD19

Pro

Before I begin my connections, I will reiterate, that this debate is about whether Sanders supporters should support Hillary Clinton or Jill Stein in the General election, if Sanders is not the Democratic Nominee

Contention 1: Issues Differences

Significant differences exist between Sanders and Clinton and these differences should disqualify Clinton if she is the Democratic nominee.

Subpoint A: Campaign Finance

Bernie Sanders is a hard line opponent of Citizens United, having proposed and supported several resolutions to amend the constitution to abolish corporate personhood and overturn the ruling, and he has refused support from corporations. He has even refused SuperPAC money from unions. His integrity and his actions indicate his consistency and reliability on the issue. Hillary Clinton has said she would consider a 28th Amendment to overturn Citizens United, however she has said that the best things to do would include better transparency and limits on secret donations. Clinton has also received major donations from corporations including wall street banks and has accepted superPAC money, and thus has put her commitment to overturning Citizens United in doubt.

https://berniesanders.com...

https://www.hillaryclinton.com...

http://www.theguardian.com...


Subpoint B: Wall Street Reform

While Clinton’s recent statements make her seem very pro-wall street reform, her record says otherwise. Clinton's top donors include Citibank and Goldman Sachs, and this is in large part thanks to her very friendly attitude towards these banks, some of which have referred to her as having “Goldman Handcuffs”. Clinton is opposed to restoring the Glass Steal Act. Sanders advocates a financial transactions tax on all wall street transactions, while Clinton only advocates this on high frequency trades and at a lower rate. Economist and former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich has also stated that Sanders’s plan for Wall Street is a much better plan than Clinton’s.

http://thinkprogress.org...

http://www.alternet.org...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

https://berniesanders.com...

https://www.hillaryclinton.com...

Subpoint C: Trade

Sanders is an avowed opponent of free trade, having vigorously opposed every free trade agreement proposed in congress. Clinton has been very trade friendly up until recently, when she flip-flopped on the Trans Pacific Partnership. Clinton advocated for NAFTA as first lady and in 2008 she stated she would not support withdrawal from NAFTA. As a Senator, she voted for the US-Australia Free Trade Agreement, the US-Chile Free Trade Agreement, the US-Bahrain Free Trade Agreement, the US-Morocco Free Trade Agreement and the US-Singapore Free Trade Agreement and as secretary of state she pushed for the US-Columbia Free Trade Agreement and helped negotiate the TPP, going as far as calling it the “Gold Standard” in trade deals, and pushed for it on numerous occasions. While she now claims to be against TPP, her previous actions make this claim seem dubious at best, and therefore unreliable.

https://www.govtrack.us...

https://www.govtrack.us...

http://www.npr.org...

http://www.cnn.com...

http://www.politifact.com...

http://www.theguardian.com...

Subpoint D: Health care

Clinton supports slight reforms to the Affordable Care Act, including better regulation of prices on pharmaceuticals. Bernie Sanders is an advocate of a single payer, Medicare for all health care system. He is of the opinion that health care is a human right and wants to expand medical coverage to all citizens. Clinton has been extremely critical of Sanders’s plans, and thus showing a clear difference on the issue.

http://www.salon.com...

http://www.usnews.com...

http://theweek.com...

https://berniesanders.com...

https://www.hillaryclinton.com...

Subpoint E: Minimum Wage

Both candidates advocate raising the minimum wage, however Sanders support making the minimum wage a living wage of $15 an hour, while Hillary Clinton wants to increase it to $12 an hour, and has never endorsed a $15 an hour minimum wage.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com...

http://www.msnbc.com...

https://berniesanders.com...

I shall elaborate further on the differences between the candidates in the areas of Immigration, Climate Change, Criminal Justice, College Cost, Israel-Palestine and Social Security in the next round.

Contention 2: Sanders has more in common with Stein than Clinton

Sanders has more in common with Green Party presumptive nominee Jill Stein, than he does with Hilary Clinton. Stein, like Sanders supports overturning Citizens United, establishing Single Payer health care, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, breaking up the big banks, making college tuition free, banning privatized prisons, legalizing marijuana, restoring Glass Steagall, expanding social security, promoting workplace democracy, and are opposed to all Free Trade deals. There are however differences and Stein advocates more aggressively progressive policies including nationalizing the federal reserve, using quantitative easing to abolish student loan debt, and instituting a “Green New Deal” to convert the US to 100% renewable energy by 2030. Stein also disagrees with both candidates on foreign policy. While Sanders advocates a less aggressive foreign policy than Clinton does, Stein advocates a non violent foreign policy and an end to US imperialism and foreign interventions.

http://www.jill2016.com...

https://www.slantnews.com...

http://thinkprogress.org...

https://www.youtube.com...

Contention 3: Lesser of Two Evils Solves Nothing

A common argument against voting third party candidates is that because these candidates are unlikely to win, it is better to settle for a lesser evil. However in voting for a lesser evil, you are voting against your values and the policies you support. A vote is a voice and it is a way of expressing discontent with the status quo, or support for particular policies. If you vote for a lesser evil, you are voting for the status quo. The fact is that a lesser evil is still just that, evil. You should not have to choose between Hannibal Lector and Darth Vader, when Batman is still an option.

The only way to bring about change is to first change the way the debate is framed. Right now, the debate is framed as being between Democrats and Republicans, a false dichotomy. In order to change the debate, we must break outside the two party system.

http://ivn.us...




cognitire

Con

cognitire forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
BrendanD19

Pro

Because the Con has not responded I shall extend my arguments and rather than add any further arguments, I shall allow the Con a chance to respond to the arguments I have already made.
cognitire

Con

cognitire forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
BrendanD19

Pro

Seeing as the Con has AGAIN failed to respond, I will extend my arguments yet again, and hope he can make his arguments, responses and rebuttals in the coming rounds.
cognitire

Con

cognitire forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
BrendanD19

Pro

Seeing as the Con has failed to respond to any of my arguments and forfeited every round, the Con has therefore conceded my arguments. Silence is compliance and the Con has been silent on every issue in this debate. For this reason, I can only see a Pro vote at the end of this debate.
Vote Pro.
cognitire

Con

cognitire forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Atheistvoice 8 months ago
Atheistvoice
If you don't vote for Clinton if she wins then we'll get a republican in the white house. I don't like Clinton at all as a sanders supporter but she's better than any republican.
Posted by BrendanD19 8 months ago
BrendanD19
If you really wanted what Bernie wants you would vote for Jill Stein
Posted by bhakun 8 months ago
bhakun
Honestly, if you dont vote for Clinton, then you dont really believe in Bernie's message. I don't like Clinton that much, as a Bernie supporter, but she's infinitely better than anyone on the Republican side.
Posted by BrendanD19 8 months ago
BrendanD19
What do you mean?
Posted by V5RED 8 months ago
V5RED
I don't think it will be a very interesting debate. I might accept if nobody else does within the next few days, but I would probably want some changes made in the wording of the debate.
Posted by BrendanD19 8 months ago
BrendanD19
if you feel that way, then accept the debate.
Posted by V5RED 8 months ago
V5RED
The idea that Sanders supporters should throw away their vote if Hillary gets the nomination by voting for a candidate who has zero chance of winning is is absurd for two very important reasons.

First, Sanders' and Hillary's policies are extremely similar, so if you support either one on the only thing that should matter, how they plan to run the country, you will still get most of what you want with either candidate. It would be like if you wanted a chocolate chip cookie with walnuts, but all I had left were plain chocolate chip. You are still getting a damn good cookie.

Second, if enough Democrats throw away their vote because they didn't get the exact candidate they wanted, the Republicans win and you will either get a madman with no plan(Trump) or a madman with a plan(Cruz). Going with the cookie analogy, it would be like saying "f*** it, if I can't have my walnuts I am going to throw your cookies away and make everyone eat rocks"
Posted by Ragnar 8 months ago
Ragnar
This resolution could be clearified to avoid sementics. Like do you mean exclusively in terms of voting? And what percentile of them are you intending this debate to be about?

Were it me, I'd probably go with the majority of those who plan to vote for Sanders, should not vote for Clinton, should Sanders not be the democratic party contender... in the current US presidential race.

However also be prepared for arguments for who they should generally vote for instead.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Dookieman 8 months ago
Dookieman
BrendanD19cognitire
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture by Con.