The Instigator
utahjoker
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
One_Winged_Rook
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points

Best Batman Villain

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
utahjoker
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/30/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,563 times Debate No: 28782
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

utahjoker

Pro

First round is acceptance and my opponent put which villain you want next to acceptance.
One_Winged_Rook

Con

I accept! and will Argue that The Red Hood (Jason Todd) is the BEST BATMAN VILLAIN. (I will be excluding everything from the New 52's Red Hood and the Outlaws because that's been totally gay.... so I'm basing this off Under the Red Hood (comic and movie) and Battle for the Cowl mostly)

HOWEVER, I would like to exclude the argument that Joker created Red Hood.
That is a valid argument that wins it for Joker, and for that reason, I'd like to exclude it.
I think it's a good debate if we exclude that argument.

If you cannot or will not exclude that argument, I then propose several and you get to choose which I argue for (because I really can't decide myself).

Harley Quinn (with the "Joker created Her" argument excluded as well)
Two-Face (Harvey Dent with the "Joker created him in the Dark Knight excluded as well)
Hush (Tommy Elliot)
Bane (with the movie versions excluded)

or my favorite Owlman

heck, I'll even try to make an argument for the Riddler or Penguin if you want me to

I think they all have compelling arguments for why they are Batman's Best Villain.

Your move, hotshot
Debate Round No. 1
utahjoker

Pro

I accept the regulations that my opponent has offered, and he can use the Jason Todd Red Hood. I will not be using the cliche choice of the Joker instead I choose Ra's al Ghul. I will be using the Ra's al Ghul in the comics and in the movies Under the Red Hood and Batman Begins. The three reasons I choose him was because he created the Red Hood and Batman, he is the leader of the League of Shadows and he is immortal.

In the movie Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne (Batman) is trying to find himself and Ra's al Ghul happens to find him. Ra's al Ghul then takes him under his wing training him and teaching him everything Bruce Wayne needs to know to become Batman. How to fight and how to be in a way a ninja without Ra's al Ghul there is no Batman as we know it today. In the movie Under the Red Hood Ra's al Ghul partners with the Joker to keep Robin and Batman busy while he goes on his mission. Unfortunately the Joker gets the upper hand of the duo and kills Robin. Feeling guilty Ra's al Ghul puts Robin in the Lazarus Pit which brings him back to live, but drives him into an insane like state that creates the villain the Red Hood.

He is also the leader of the terrorist group the League of Shadows. Which is a group that tries to bring balance to the world and its goal of world perfection. They do succeed by bringing down such empires like the Romans and England. This is also a very mysterious group that is like the title suggest a group that live in teh Shadows.

No other Batman villain is immortal like Ra's al Ghul. This is very unique thing about him he has lived for generation after generation thanks to the Lazarus Pit that keeps him alive. He has been able to live through every major period in human exists. Ra's al Ghul is the immortal man.

Ra's al Ghul created the Red Hood and Batman, Leader of the League of Shadows, and is immortal Red Hood is only a sore thumb while Ra's is the knife at the neck.

Sources
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://batman.wikia.com...
http://batman.wikia.com...
http://dc.wikia.com...
One_Winged_Rook

Con

Interesting choice, I like it!
(Side note, I don't think sources are required. I know Batman very well, as I assume you do as well. If there's a dispute, just say what Issue/Story-line/Episode/Movie it was in)

Also, nice choosing the OTHER character who "created" the Red Hood, and while I did say that I was going to be using Under the Red Hood, I wasn't excluding others... so we'll get to that.

So, your three reasons:

(P1) He created the Red Hood and Batman
(P2) He is the leader of the League of Shadows
(P3) He is immortal

(P1) Firstly, while in Under the Red Hood, Ra's is shown to have created Red Hood... we find out later in Infinite Crisis that this isn't the case. Superboy-Prime made a reality altering punch that caused, among other things like Hal Jordan never spending time in prison for drunk driving, Jason Todd to come back to life. While this isn't included in either Under the Red Hood or Battle for the Cowl, in the latter Jason does ask Dick, if the Lazarus Pit made Jason come back, why don't they use that on Bruce? Implying he wasn't resurrected by the Lazarus Pit as the movie implies (is was in a flashback that Ra's was explaining to Batman... hence unreliable). The comic, Under the Hood, does not imply Ra's brought Jason back, but only restored his ability through the Lazarus Pit (it was actually Talia that pushed him in). Even if we accept that Ra's brought Jason back, it had nothing to do with the mentality of Jason... that is all due to Batman and Joker... Ra's was merely an agent in that.

Additionally, the fact that he created BATMAN, one of the greatest superHEROES ever. I'm not sure how that makes him a better villain . "without Ra's al Ghul there is no Batman as we know it today." Was Mr. Miyagi the villain in Karate Kid? (maybe in Karate Kid 3, but that's another argument) Creating the Hero is a Heroic thing, not a Villainous one.

(P2) I concede that he is the Leader of the League of Shadows (even though it does get run by Talia a few times in absentia). You'll have to give more evidence for why, as the Leader of the League of Shadows, they are the worthy to be called the best Villain. While, yes, they have in historic times sacked Rome and burned London... these both don't apply to Batman. While Batman is alive, he manages to combat the League of Shadows quite well and they don't do any severe damage on the level of their previous conquests. This implies that they can't be that great of a threat to Batman.

(P3) You are using Batman Begins. He dies in Batman Begins. He is not immortal. (Christopher Nolan as well as Liam Neeson collaborate this, as well as Talia confirming it in TDKR)

Now on to mine!

Jason Todd is the Batman's Best Villain because how personal he is to Batman. He is not, by any means, the Best Villain, but to Batman.... he is paramount.

We know that to Bruce, Jason Todd's death and resurrection as Red Hood is Bruce's greatest Failure. Not anything the Joker ever did, not letting Ra's kill hundreds... Jason Todd's journey to murderous vigilantism is his greatest Failure. I'd say the person who causes the Hero's greatest Failure and torments him makes Jason Todd a pretty good villain for Batman.

Additionally, Batman tried to have Jason thrown into Arkham, only to have him declared sane and moved to Black Gate. So, unlike most of Batman's villains... Jason is sane in his murderous ways. He's not an uncontrollable by-product of the Bat, but a contrived concerted motif that will do what the Bat has never done.

In truth, the reason why Jason is Batman's greatest villain is because he is what Batman could be. His methods, however ineffective so far, could potentially one day destroy the Bat. If Red Hood's methods succeed in cleaning up Gotham, the Bat loses. And while the rest of Gotham wins... Batman loses... the Red Hood would have proven to him that his entire mission as the Batman was a failure. We see in Under the Red Hood how close he comes to cleaning up Gotham. He takes out all the leading crime syndicates at the time as well as stops the selling of drugs to kids (this gets expanded upon in the Comic). These sound like good things, but not to Batman. He does it while killing dozens. Batman takes issue with this. I know I'm being speculative... but I think even the possibility that Red Hood can succeed in destroying the Bat, not in a physical or mental way, but in a Ideological one. Something that Ra's can never do. Batman could never admit defeat to Ra's.

What if Red Hood kills Joker? Kills Killer Croc? Zsaz? Freeze?... all of them.... what if Red Hood does to Gotham was Deadpool did to the Marvel Universe recently (Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe). Just the potential for that, based off his previous actions, makes him the Best Batman Villain.
Debate Round No. 2
utahjoker

Pro

I will now refute my opponents arguments

p1) Ra's al Ghul created Red Hood.
p2) Ra's al Ghul created Batman
p3) He dies in Batman Begins
p4) Red Hood is the greatest Batman villain.

p1) My opponent stated in the first round that he would be using the move Under the Red Hood for a source in his argument. In the movie it is fact that Ra's al Ghul does make the Red Hood. It was Ra's that teamed up with the Joker who killed Jason Todd(Robin). It was Ra's that felt remorse for what he had done and decided to plan on stealing his dead body switching it with a fake. It was Ra's who took Jason Todd to the Lazarus pit. Without Ra's al Ghul Jason Todd would still be Robin.
p2) My opponent stated that Ra's al Ghul can't be the greatest Batman villain because he made Batman. Well actually he doesn't created Batman he teaches Bruce Wayne everything he knows. Ra's doesn't mean to create Batman his intention was to make Bruce into one of his greatest minion in the League of Shadows. If Bruce didn't refuse and become Batman the world might have seen one of the greatest villains thanks to Ra's al Ghul.
p3) While in the comics Ra's al Ghul is immortal in Christopher Nolan's Batman Begins he does die in the end. Nolan was trying to make a more realistic Batman so he made Ra's al Ghul immortal in another way. Because like Ra's al Ghul said a legend never dies.
p4) Like my opponent stated, " He is not, by any means, the Best Villain, but to Batman.... he is paramount." He isn't a villain more like an out of control vigilante he kills the villain instead of locking them up. If Red Hood does kills Joker, Killer Croc, Mr. Freeze, etc. he would be a hero in the eyes of the civilians. He is not Batman's greatest villain, but instead his lost side kick.
One_Winged_Rook

Con

p1) Ra's al Ghul created Red Hood.
p2) Ra's al Ghul created Batman
p3) He dies in Batman Begins
p4) Red Hood is the greatest Batman villain.

p1) "In the movie it is fact that Ra's al Ghul does make the Red Hood." - This simply isn't true. In Under the Red Hood , we see Ra's submerge Jason Todd into the Lazarus Pit. However, this is a flashback, narrated by Ra's. This brings into question the reliability of it. It is possible that Ra's is lying. Which, when using the other source I stated up front, Battle for the Cowl , convincingly proves (even without including Infinite Crisis) that the Lazarus Pit did not bring Jason back from the dead.

"It was Ra's that teamed up with the Joker who killed Jason Todd(Robin)." - He did create Red Hood in this way, but not intentionally (unlike how Joker made Two-Face in TDK). It was a total accident on Ra's part that Jason died. Feeling remorse at mistakenly killing the hero... not very villain-like.

"Without Ra's al Ghul Jason Todd would still be Robin." - Robin had to die, like fate (popular demand... though was a very close vote) - if it wasn't Ra's that instigated it... it would have been someone else in some other way (I know this is breaking the 4th wall, but is that not allowed?)

p2) "Well actually he doesn't created Batman" ... your opening statement and thesis "The three reasons I choose him was because he created the Red Hood and Batman" - ಠ_ಠ

p3) "in the comics Ra's al Ghul is immortal" - No, he isn't.

Definition of immortal - Living forever; never dying or decaying.

This includes other things besides Old age, which is the only thing Ra's is slightly "immune" to. He still ages like everyone else (actually accelerated). If someone can be killed with a gun or knife or cancer or plague or whatever else.. they cannot be called "immortal".

In the comic, Ra's does get old and then rejuvenates himself every so often to make him young again. Firstly, he can still be killed => not immortal. Secondly, the process is faltering, requiring him to use Lazarus Pits more often. This will eventually lead him to have to rejuvenate so quick he won't be able to travel from pit to pit in time and thus, die => not immortal. Thirdly, there are a finite number of Lazarus Pits, and they used to only be able to be used once. But they can still be destroyed. In fact, there are currently only five (after Batman and Bane went around destroying the rest of them). => not immortal.

So, while Ra's is very very old, and will live a long time (assuming he doesn't get killed), he is not immortal

(just pre-empting if you use the argument that "he won't be killed in the comic!"... neither will Batman, Alfred, or a number of other people in the DC universe. They can be killed, and hence are not immortal... just like Ra's)

p4) It's an ideological thing. The debate is "Best Batman Villain". To me, that says who can defeat the Bat. You say, "He isn't a villain more like an out of control vigilante", but not to Batman... to Batman, he is a Villain. While, you can argue that Batman tries to rehabilitate Red Hood, he even does this with Joker (and we are left to wonder if Batman truly believes that Joker will ever be cured? We could have a whole debate on that topic alone... hmmm)... so he doesn't do it because he sympathizes with Red Hood, or is endeared to him... he does it because that is his Ideology... his modus operandi.

Additionally, one of the most prolific moments for me in Under the Red Hood is at the end when Alfred asks Bruce if he would like to remove Jason's Robin costume from the Batcave... and Bruce responses sternly "No, this doesn't change any thing. This doesn't change anything at all". If nothing is changed, then Jason Todd is still dead to him and Red Hood is like any other villain.

"If Red Hood does kills Joker, Killer Croc, Mr. Freeze, etc. he would be a hero in the eyes of the civilians." - Yes, yes he would... but from the debate topic.. we're not debating "the greatest Villain"... we're debating the Best Batman Villain and Red Hood would not be a hero in the eyes of Batman... he would be a Villain... the most terrible Villain of all... because he won. No other Villain has the potential to win against Batman.
Debate Round No. 3
utahjoker

Pro

Now refute my opponents arguments

p1) Ra's Ghul created Red Hood
p2) Ra's al Ghul created Batman
p3) He is immortal
p4) Red Hood is the greatest Batman villain

p1) In the movie Under the Red Hood Ra's al Ghul does gives a flashback about him submerging Jason Todd in the Lazarus Pit. My opponent brought to question whether for some reason Ra's al Ghul would make up this story. In the movie Under the Red Hood when the Red Hood reviles his face to Batman he tells him that he was dipped in the Lazarus Pit by Ra's. For my prove look at the video and start it at 1:48 and that will be the end of it. My opponent is picking and choosing different facts from his sources that contracted itself I have simply used one of his sources to prove my case.
p2) when I said that he created Batman he gave him the skills that was necessary for him to become Batman which in turn made him create Batman.
p3) In the comics and the animated series it shows that he has used the same Lazarus Pit. He will always use the Lazarus Pit even if he gets killed his followers of the League of Shadows would most likely dip him back into it making him immortal.
p4) My opponent brings up that the reason that Jason Todd is such a great villain is that he is an out of control vigilante for Gotham that he has the potential to win that is why he is such a great villain. Well Ra's is an out of control vigilante for the world and for past generations he wants to end all evil by killing. Ra's has one he has destroyed the greatest civilizations in the world and Batman has to defend the corrupt world from Ra's while he has to protect Gotham from Jason. Now which one is greater one city or the world. Ra's is the greatest villain.

Sources
One_Winged_Rook

Con

p1)"he tells (Bruce) that he was dipped in the Lazarus Pit by Ra's" - No, he doesn't.

Jason tells Bruce - "Oh, you got to talking with Ra's, huh? Well, does it make it easier for you to think that my little dip in his fountain of youth turned me rabid? or is this just the real me?"

1. He never says that Ra's was the one who dipped him in there [hint: Ra's didn't, it was Talia].

2. He doesn't say that it brought him back from the dead, only that it supposedly turned him rabid [hint: It did not bring him back from the dead because Lazarus Pits aren't capable of bringing someone back after so long].

So, let's see Ra's total actions involved in the "making" of Red Hood .

(A) He hires someone to cause a distraction, inadvertently causing Jason's death.
(B) He takes care of a comatose Jason. Then Talia, against Ra's wishes, puts him into the Pit.

The story fits, without contradiction, with the DCAU movie Under the Red Hood and (A) and (B) above are the only actions Ra's takes to "create" the Red Hood . The only one who can be given undisputed credit (in a villainous way) is the Joker .

"My opponent is picking and choosing different facts from his sources that contracted itself" - They do not contradict themselves at all... the continuity of the DCU necessitates that the flashback narrated by Ra's was a lie. Jason was dipped in "(Ra's) fountain of youth", but it wasn't Ra's himself that did it (and, in fact, Ra's wished against it. Maybe he lied to Bruce to cover for his daughter. Remember, he wants Bruce to wed Talia and become his heir of the Legion of Shadows).

p2) "when I said that he created Batman he gave him the skills that was (sic) necessary for him to become Batman which in turn made him create Batman." - I don't need to argue this.

(1) Ra's created Batman and this makes him a better/worse villain. (I argue, it hurts his status as a villain)
(2) Ra's didn't create Batman and he doesn't get credit for better or for worse. (Your point is conceded)

Your choice.

p3) Lazarus Pits cannot bring a person back from the dead who has been dead for a period of time. I already stated this from one of my sources; Battle for the Cowl . If it is attempted, the best that can happen is that person is brought back as a mindless zombie.

Also, just to kill the whole point of "immortality" and why Ra's is special in this... many other characters have used the Lazarus Pit to heal wounds, illness or become youthful again. These include: Bane, Black Canary, Nyssa, Talia, King Snake, Nora Fries, Lady Shiva, The Riddler, and Batwoman.

There is nothing special about Ra's in this.
Ra's is no more immortal than anyone else.
He is just Old .

p4) "My opponent brings up that the reason that Jason Todd is such a great villain is that he is an out of control vigilante for Gotham" - The "out of control vigilante" is your term, not mine. I have never addressed him as anything but a villain in the eyes of Batman and a possible hero in the eyes of the citizens of Gotham. The closest thing I said to that is "Jason Todd's journey to murderous vigilantism is (Bruce's) greatest Failure". In fact, I've never came close to calling him "out of control", I call him a "contrived concerted motif".

"Batman has to defend the corrupt world from Ra's" - Although Batman sometimes strays when enjoined with the Justice League... his role as an individual is to protect Gotham and only Gotham. Even when he does join with the Justice League, he often laments at this... viewing his actions with the League secondary to his role as the protector of Gotham (as we know from the comic; Onyx, and later Catwoman, are the only superheros that Batman allows to operate independently in Gotham.)

My friend, when it comes to Batman and his villains - the only concern is Gotham .

I would say, for the reasons stated in previous rounds, that Red Hood has a better chance of beating Batman for Gotham's soul than Ra's does. For that, he is the Best Batman Villain .
Debate Round No. 4
utahjoker

Pro

Well everything is Ra's
Talia is his daughter
It was his training that made Batman
It is his Lazarus Pit
It was his plan that got Robin killed
I was his plan to bring Robin back to life
And finally it is his fault for Robin to go bad.

Everything about what my opponent says about the evidence about Under the Red Hood with Ra's al Ghul involvement is that he maybe lied or it was all a bad dream if I was to use my opponents logic maybe Battle for the Cowl is all wrong and maybe Jason Todd wasn't brought back, the evidence at hand shows that Ra's al Ghul had his plan go bad and he tried to correct his wrong.

When is comes to Gotham my opponent is wrong again. Ra's al Ghul tried to destroy Gotham while Jason Todd is protecting it. The only crime that Jason Todd has committed is that he pushes the limit in protecting Gotham while Ra's doesn't care about Gotham only to destroy it.

Vote for Ra's
Ra's has done evil for hundreds of years and has killed whole civilizations while Jason killed some Mob members. Ra's is the greatest villain because he is the evil that walks the Earth.
One_Winged_Rook

Con

I think it is abundantly obvious who is more versed in the subject matter at hand.

This has become a problem to the point that my opponent has contradicted himself, proven himself
wrong, constantly misinterprets my arguments and the Batman mythology and canon.

Talia is his daughter

I consider this a new argument. You never once argued before now that Talia being Ra's daughter
somehow made him a more venerable villain. I don't see how the father can be credited with daughter's
villainy.

It was his training that made Batman

I already expounded this, and you have presented nothing to support your case. Either he created
Batman or he didn't.

It is his Lazarus Pit

Conceded, I'll let the voters decide if he is the "best batman villain" because he "owns" a Lazarus Pit.

It was his plan that got Robin killed

But it wasn't his plan to kill Robin, so... again, I'll let the voters decide how "villainous" this is

I was his plan to bring Robin back to life

It was never his plan to bring Jason back, never.

And finally it is his fault for Robin to go bad

This is not a conclusion from all the rest. The only two people to blame are the Joker and Batman.

----------

I never said it was a "bad dream", just skillful diplomacy and covering up for his daughter. It is canon
that what Ra's told Batman was a cover story. I can't believe I even have to argue this, but a flashback
being narrated by who my opponent calls the "best batman villain" and something that is shown as if
it is happening in real time without a POV are not the same. I have given reasons why the flashback
narrated by Ra's is unreliable. If you wanted to argue the validity of anything said in Battle for the
Cowl, you should have said so and given reason. The ONLY possible argument to bring into question
everything is that the ENTIRE series is fallacious, and actually in the mind of Bruce Wayne (ala American
Pyscho) as a way of coping with his parents death. Christian Bale Conspiracy! (I'm not actually making
this argument.. just making fun of my opponent, and the situation)

"The only crime that Jason Todd has committed is that he pushes the limit in protecting Gotham" -
Murder, Arson, Explosions, Disturbing the Peace, Blowing up a Helicopter midtown -

"while Ra's doesn't care about Gotham only to destroy it." - Right!, Ra's care about the world! He wants
to do good, same as Red Hood. The difference is that Ra's method involves the death of humanity for the sake of the planet. However, he can destroy the whole rest of the world (supposedly for the betterment of the world) and Batman won't really care. However, it IS possible that Red Hood will be able to save Gotham by way of murder and corruption, and thus... Beat the Bat.

So, let's sum up this WHOLE argument for the Voters.

Points for Ra's that I conceded

He is the Leader of the League of Shadows

He is capable of destroying the world, besides Gotham

He has a daughter, Talia al Ghul

He possess a Lazarus Pit

He is Old

I also conceded that he created Batman, but my opponent seems confused as to if this is true or not.

If it is true, I argued that by creating Batman, he is lesser of a villain.

Points for Red Hood that my opponent conceded, or neglected

Red Hood's Personal relationship with Batman

Jason's death being Batman's Greatest Failure

Batman's inability to have Jason declared insane

Red Hood's potential to supercede Batman as the protector of Gotham

Batman's ultimate demise at the hands of Red Hood

My opponent also entirely sidestepped any conversation regarding the criteria for the "Best Batman
Villain"

I think I made it clear the reason why I declared Red Hood's villainry, but my opponent never truly
argued his.

My opponent has made it abundantly clear how little he knows about the Batman Universe by his closet
understand of not only Red Hood, but his own candidate, Ra's Al Ghul.

If he is going to include Talia as part of Ra's villainy, shouldn't he include Damian? How about Bane in
TDKR and thus the entire Knightfall and No Man's Land series? He never once mentioned the Tower of
Babel, where Ra's is narrowly defeated but causes Batman to get thrown off the the Justice League.

Red Hood is the Villain that Batman always needed, he is the best thing to happen to the Batman series
in a long time and when his character comes to its logical conclusion, he stands the best chance at
beating the Bat.

For that, Red Hood is the Best Batman Villain
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by likespeace 3 years ago
likespeace
To clarify further on the sources, for example--"In the movie Under the Red Hood when the Red Hood reviles his face to Batman he tells him that he was dipped in the Lazarus Pit by Ra's." When I watched the video from 1:48, I only saw Robin admitting he was dipped in the Lazarus Pit. I did not see Robin say that he was dipped in the Lazarus Pit by Ra's. Con was quick to point this out as well.
Posted by likespeace 3 years ago
likespeace
The biggest problem, as a voter, is that no clear definition of "best" or "batman villain" was presented in the debate terms. I will thus go by Google's definition of the terms--

Villain - A person guilty or capable of a crime or wickedness.

Best - Of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality: "the best pitcher in the league".

It's uncontroversial, using standard definitions, that both Ra's Al Ghul and The Red Hood were thus villains faced by Batman. The Red Hood was imprisoned at Black Gate, for example. The magnitude of Ra's Al Ghuls villainy in both the Batman world (trying to destroy the people of Gotham) and outside (sacking Rome and burning London), as presented here, is higher. Therefore, I award Ra's Al Ghul the win. If the debate were "Batman's best adversary/opponent", I may have voted differently.

Con did provide more sources for his arguments, so I award him points there.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by likespeace 3 years ago
likespeace
utahjokerOne_Winged_RookTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:32 
Reasons for voting decision: See comments for rationale.