The Instigator
ADreamOfLiberty
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
FreetimeToBurn
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Bestiality/Zoophilia should be legal and is not inherently immoral

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
ADreamOfLiberty
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/31/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 660 times Debate No: 39773
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

(A) Explaining the Resolution

The resolution has proven itself vulnerable to misunderstanding or misrepresentation in the past therefore I will spell out exactly what it means.

Saying X should be legal/moral does not mean everything that belongs in that category is legal/moral; it means that something should not be illegal or immoral because it is X.

Example: driving a car should be legal and is moral

Misconception: running people over with a car is not moral, yet it qualifies as driving a car so driving a car shouldn’t be legal.

Clarification: Killing people is what is immoral and should be illegal in that action, not driving a car.

Therefore the resolution does not mean that every act of bestiality is moral and should be legal, but that an act is not immoral and should not be illegal solely because it bestiality.

(B) Preconditions

Because of the length constraints a completely specified argument is impossible, indeed it would take a small book. I will however assert some premises which my opponent must accept, if a potential opponent thinks these are unfair premises we can have a separate debate on that.

Premise B.1) Legality and morality are inherently linked, if something is moral it should be legal and if is legal it should be moral. Note this is not implying that if something is illegal at a given time or place it is immoral nor is it implying that if something is legal it is moral. Morality is independent of law, but law should be dependent on morality.

Premise B.2) Baring a full derivation and support of a moral theory, the relevant theory in the case of bestiality/zoophilia is mutual consent of interacting parties + reasonable avoidance of foreseeable pain or biological damage. No other moral standard shall be accepted. For those interested I hold a more constrained view as a universal principle for human society, i.e. consent is the prerequisite of all moral interaction between humans.

Premise B.3) The resolution makes a claim about what law should be but does not rely on any existing law, precedence, standard, or tradition of any kind. The fact that law has traditionally defined consent in a manner that makes it impossible for animals to demonstrate it in court is irrelevant. Only the definition of concept given here is to be referenced or used.


(C) Implications: From these premises I would like to preempt possible strategies of my opponent by implication. The premises above prohibit these strategies.

(C.1) B.1 means I will not entertain the notion that even if bestiality/zoophilia is moral it is somehow detrimental to society and that constitutes a legal basis for banning it.

(C.2) B.2 means that I will not entertain sentiments which associate the term morality with emotional appeals, religious dogma, or mindless whim. Consent and biological harm are well defined objectively verifiable concepts.

(C.3) B.2 & B.3 mean you are willing to debate the matter of consent or harm as defined here. A brief justification for excluding legally defined consent is given but the topic is still not open for contest in the scope of this debate.

I reserve the right to deem other strategies incompatible with the premises you accepted with the debate.

(D) Definitions

(D.1) Bestiality – the practice of interspecies sex specifically involving humans as one of the species.

(D.2) Zoophilia – the sexual orientation which describes a permanent sexual attraction towards animals by humans.

(D.3) Rape – the forcing of sexual intercourse onto an organism capable of intelligent self-determination without their consent. NOTE consent as defined below.

(D.4) Pain – the discomfort of an organism, established by some objective observation of behavior or biology.

(D.5) Biological Damage – the objectively observable harm that that impairs the value, usefulness, or normal function of some organ or tissue in an organism.

(D.6) Consentand this is important, is defined as “permission for something to happen or agreement to do something” http://oxforddictionaries.com... .

(E) Burden of Proof

My burden of proof is to show that it is possible that an animal can consent to sex with a human. The core argument relates this to the resolution. I believe this burden is met by the end of this first post. It is not sufficient for my opponent to simply assert I have not met the burden he/she must explain why my argument here does not do so.

My opponent’s burden of proof is to either defeat the argument for consent, or prove it impossible for a human to mate with any species without causing pain or physical damage.

(F) Informed/legal Consent vs Consent

I am fully aware that the idea of informed consent in legal circles is different and much stricter. I do not mean legal/informed consent when I say consent. No one who has a pet, no one who has partook in any animal derived products has ever had informed consent from any animals. It is an impossibility even for humans to give perfect informed consent because it presupposes that both parties are perfectly aware of the consequences of an action. Something that requires the ability to predict the future with 100% certainty.

In practice what is meant by informed consent is that one party discloses any information about the interaction which may reasonably be expected to affect the other’s decision. If one party does not have the information it cannot be given. If the other party is incapable of receiving the information it is not considered a requirement.

For instance, you bring an unconscious stranger into a hospital, the doctor will still treat them on the presumption that they want to be healed. This is implied consent but cannot be informed consent.

The point is that informed consent, while an objective standard, relies on the context of the typical human mind and language. It loses applicability beyond the scope of the human race, attempting to apply it to morals involving non-humans leads to contradictions and absurdities.

If in the ‘eyes of the law’ no animal can ever consent then no animal has ever consented to another animal. That means every single sexual encounter in the whole of history before mankind was in fact rape. I consider the above a valid form of Reductio ad absurdum http://en.wikipedia.org...

Finally I would like to point out that current legal precedence and tradition never tries to apply informed consent to animals. All anti-bestiality laws appear to be based on either religion or the concept of abuse. The law does not care about informed consent of animals now and I am not advocating that change. If a potential opponent does not think I have laid out valid reasons why informed consent is morally and legally inapplicable to animals, we can have another debate about it before they accept this one.

(G) Core Argument:

/ If a practice is moral it should be legal (Premise 1)

/ Bestiality is a moral practice – see Support of Morality

// Bestiality should be legal

(H) Support of Morality - Consent:

Under the constraints set out above the question is:

(H.1) Can an animal give permission or agreement to a member of another species for sexual interaction?

Remember since I only need one exception to break the rule, if there is ever a case where the answer to H.1 is yes I have established that immorality is not inherent in bestiality, I can say it is moral as per section A. There are two possible reasons why the answer to that could be no in all cases:

(H.2) No species is capable of communicating permission, agreement, or anything really to a member of another species implicitly or explicitly.

(H.3) No species is psychologically capable of granting consent to another species

That means if I can negate (show to be false) both of these statements then there must exist some cases where the answer to the question H.1 is YES.

/ ~H.2 / ~H.3 // H.1

(H.4) – Negation of H.3

Why would humans be the only species capable of accepting interspecies sex? How can observed instances of interspecies sex between two non-human species be reconciled with H.3?

(H.5) – Negation of H.2

(H.5.1) It is impossible for a creature to pursue an action to which it does not consent provided it does not fear retribution for failure to comply.

This can be established easily by looking at its negation which is “It is possible for a creature to pursue a course of action it does not consent to, even if there is no fear of retribution for failure to comply”. It’s a contradiction in terms.

(H.5.2) If a mind can agree with anything it must agree with itself.

Note: Reflexes are biologically and behaviorally differentiable from choice.

(H.5.3) Therefore even in the absence of verbal or body language, if an animal pursues a course of action where no negative consequences have ever been employed as the result of failing to pursue said course of action, then it has implicitly communicated its intention and its acceptance of the action. If that action is in fact an interaction it must also consent to the interaction.

(H.5.4) To compound that point most animals which zoophiles are interested in mating with are quite capable of body language and vocal communication of a basic sort. Note that “Yes” and “No” are very basic communications which any higher animal owner can attest to understanding.

These youtube videos are among thousands of publically available images, videos, and reports detailing the sexual advances towards humans by animals, it provides the last piece in my argument for consent, action implying consent absent negative conditioning. They may be posted as a joke but what they display is real.

http://scienceblogs.com...



(I) Support of Morality - Harm:

The burden of proof is on my opponent to demonstrate harm is necessary.

(J)I want to wrap up with an example question: Horseback riding. Do you believe a horse can consent to being ridden? How would you know?



FreetimeToBurn

Con

I'd like to thank my opponent for spending so much time on his formatting as to make his argument an easier read. Having read it, I can assure you that my understanding was noticeably affected by the rich structure. That said, any such structure will not be seen in my argument simply because I don't want to. The asterisk (*) will indicate when I am directly addressing my opponent.

It seems to me that my opponent has had significant experience in the competitive debate realm. They (I will refer to the contender as "they" from here on out) should then recognize that the argument that they have constructed, as it goes, is impossible to debate. *Like, I dunno if you picked it up, but it's actually IMPOSSIBLE to debate this.*

Firstly, I'd like to point out the futility of creating multiple debates about different parts of their argumentation. Okay, so if we do decide to argue about the framework and create a new debate, how do we go back and edit this one? We can't. We have to make a new debate. So what happens to this one? I'll assume it ends in a wash. The point is this:

Because the instigator also happens to be the one who frames the resolution, the round is already skewed to begin with. This is because the instigator has the ability to create rather arbitrary guidelines to the debate under the rationale that they were the ones to create the debate to begin with. This is exemplified in quite a few places.

Under the B tagline: "I will however assert some premises which my opponent must accept, if a potential opponent thinks these are unfair premises we can have a separate debate on that.".

Under premise B.2 : "No other moral standard shall be accepted.".

Under premise B.3: "Only the definition of concept given here is to be referenced or used.".

The list goes on. The opponent does state that we (the contenders) "can have a separate debate on that". This is futile for the same reason that this debate is. In any sort of prospective debate, the instigator will indeed carry that power skew. Fairness is impossible when the instigator is the only one that can interpret the resolution, my opponent should be very familiar with this. The only way to have a fair debate is for the instigator to remove themself from total control of interpretation. Interpretation should be left to be debated about, in round. This is called framework debate and is thus a huge part of competitive debate.

All that said, even though this debate is hugely biased because the arbitrator also happens to be a debater, I'll try and debate under the guidelines provided.

Concede all framework issues and inherent immorality. The only remaining point of contention is morality as per consent.

My opponent lines out two neg strategies under H.2 and H.3 and goes on to show why these methods have no ground. He does, however, forget to mention a third method, which I will be substantiating now.

H.4. Nobody can ever give informed consent to anything. Nothing is moral.

My opponent said it himself, "It is an impossibility even for humans to give perfect informed consent because it presupposes that both parties are perfectly aware of the consequences of an action. Something that requires the ability to predict the future with 100% certainty." His only rationale as to why we shouldn't entertain this idea is engrained in the idea of reductio ad absurdum. The neg sees this as a petty excuse to be try-hard in debate (I'll get into that later) and will not tolerate such idealism.

MoM COUNTERPLAN:

Plan- Prior to the affirmative advocacy, the Ministry of Magic will be consulted

A. This is an extra-topical counterplan- though the plan is passed through the instigator's mind, the Ministry of magic is consulted prior to passage of the advocacy

B. Net Benefits: The CP stops unfairness through the use of magic. They can travel in time and tell us what to do. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban clearly exemplifies time travelling abilities.

C. Wizards are ([Censored Word]) awesome
Harry Potter in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2007 and Lord of the Rings in 1954 and 1955
If you have seen Lord of The rings or read the books, or seen any of the Harry Potter or read the books, you'll agree. Wizards are ([Censored Word]) awesome
Gandalf killed a Balrog (Big Fire giant), went through Fangorn Forest unharmed, removed power from Sarumon, the dark white wizard, destroyed legions of orcs and fought off a Nazgul (A Dragon, except a whole lot angrier) unharmed
Dumbledore took down the dark wizard Grindelwald, researched the philosopher's stone and succeeded in creating one, found the dozen uses of dragon blood, is the only wizard Voldemort ever feared, successfully dueled Voldemort, and told Harry Potter how to beat Voldemort. Not to mention was in general, the greatest (In-world in Harry Potter) Wizard ever.

D. Solvency
Magic gives witches and wizards abilities reaching the infinite in number
Harry Potter in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2007 (paraphrased)
Magic allows wizards the ability to ignore natural laws, such as instant production of food, water, and other necessities, including medicine or prevention of terminal illnesses

E. Advantages
Aurors are the Special Forces paramilitary operators in the wizarding world-they are the best at killing dark wizards
Harry Potter in 2003, 2005, 2007 (paraphrased)
Wizards and Witches go through extreme training measures in order to join the ranks, requiring at least five Nastily Exhausting Wizarding Tests, and excellent marks in potion-making, stealth, disguise, location and concealment, among other tests. They are also proficient in all manners of information extrapolation, brilliant, and among the best in spell-casting

Dark Wizards cause extinction
Harry Potter in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2007 (paraphrased)
Voldemort organizes the Death Eaters, his loyal group of witches and wizards who pursue the dark arts, freely kill muggles and track down and murder witches and wizards who tolerate Muggles and "mudbloods," magic makers from Muggle families. "

NEXT ONTO WHY I WIN THE ROUND:

The role of the ballot is to accurately represent the will of the judge. As a written form between the judge and the reader, the ballot serves only as communication. That said, judge, you are obliged as a human being to indicate on the ballot whatever you so desire. Going on, we observe that the burden is on the pro to prove to you that it is the most desirable for you to indicate a pro ballot. As the con, we"re going to tell you all the ways it would be not.

"The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience" said by Eleanor Roosevelt. Moreover, Albert Einstein goes on to say, "gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love". Now, when we cross-apply relating philosophies, we understand that although debating about what the instigator says may be in accordance with the natural order of what may be expected, it fails to efficiently fulfill the ultimate purpose of life which is fulfillment itself.

We"ll state our first contention. The philosophy of hedonism fulfills ultimately.

Heathwood "06 says "the most plausible form of hedonism is extensionally equivalent to the most plausible form of desire satisfactionism" How can a single theory of welfare be a version of both hedonism and desire satisfactionism? The an- swer has to do with pleasure. " we humans ultimately desire only pleasure. The answer, rather, lies in what pleasure is: pleasure" is the subjective satisfaction of desire." We therefore conclude that the judge should indicate the most pleasurable ballot option.

Our contention two is that laughter is inherently pleasurable.

From the New York Times in 2011, "In five sets of studies in the laboratory and one field study at comedy performances, Dr. Dunbar " tested resistance to pain both before and after bouts of social laughter" The findings" eliminated the possibility that the pain resistance measured was the result of a general sense of well being rather than actual laughter" "The causal sequence in laughter triggers endorphin activation," [Dr. Dunbar] said."

As a subpoint B: Laughter literally heals you. There are three main reasons.
http://stress.about.com... ; Scott "13

"
1)Hormones: Laughter reduces the level of stress hormones like cortisol, epinephrine (adrenaline), dopamine and growth hormone. It also increases the level of health-enhancing hormones like endorphins. Laughter increases the number of antibody-producing cells we have working for us, and enhances the effectiveness of T cells. All this means a stronger immune system, as well as fewer physical effects of stress.
2)Internal Workout: A good belly laugh exercises the diaphragm, contracts the abs and even works out the shoulders, leaving muscles more relaxed afterward. It even provides a good workout for the heart.
3)Social Benefits of Laughter: Laughter connects us with others. Just as with smiling and kindness, most people find that laughter is contagious, so if you bring more laughter into your life, you can most likely help others around you to laugh more, and realize these benefits as well. By elevating the mood of those around you, you can reduce their stress levels, and perhaps improve the quality of social interaction you experience with them, reducing your stress level even more!"
"
As you can see, judge, the incredible effects of humor justify a clear ballot in favor of the most humorous side.
Debate Round No. 1
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

"should then recognize that the argument that they have constructed, as it goes, is impossible to debate."
It's not impossible to debate it's impossible for my conclusions to be wrong given my premises, they referred to this circumstance as a valid when I was learning logic. http://en.wikipedia.org...

I couldn't support all the premises in 10,000 characters so I picked two. Morality based on consent and avoidance of harm. I did not pick these at random they are typically the most common objections to bestiality. I fully realize that if the other premises are false, even though I said they were not open to contest in this debate my resolution is not affirmed. That is why I am willing to debate those as well. The fallacy you may proceed on is that there is any real world resolution that could ever be affirmed in five 10,000 character rounds if every premise presented is challengeable.

"how do we go back and edit this one?"
Don't start this one if you disagree with the premises required. This is no different than someone defining key terms in their resolution. If you feel you've won the other one you should be content to know this one could not stand. I did not create the mechanics of this site, if I did I should have allowed fully structured support.

"create rather arbitrary guidelines to the debate"

They aren't arbitrary, my first debates here allowed the challenging of all the premises but that was interpreted to mean they could be ignored. If the citizens of this site can't keep a mental picture of the supporting framework in mind then I will focus on only one joint at a time.

"the instigator will indeed carry that power skew. Fairness is impossible when the instigator is the only one that can interpret the resolution"
This isn't a power struggle, it is perfectly fair to be precise in what you are claiming and how you are supporting it.

"The only way to have a fair debate is for the instigator to remove themself from total control of interpretation."
I wrote the resolution, how do you propose I remove myself from 'control'? Should I write it and then let anyone come along and say it means something it doesn't?

In that case I am interpreting your stance here as "you are so incredibly right ADOL that nothing and no one would ever be so foolish as to challenge it" <- that fair?

"Nobody can ever give informed consent to anything. Nothing is moral."
My argument is not based on perfect informed consent nor even informed consent.

"The neg sees this as a petty excuse to be try-hard in debate"
So in other words you don't accept reductio ad absurdum? (Which by the way was not about perfect informed consent but the idea that informed consent must be universally applied and in fact replaces the concept of consent for all purposes).

"MoM COUNTERPLAN:"
This appears to be madness (not Sparta).

"Going on, we observe that the burden is on the pro to prove to you that it is the most desirable for you to indicate a pro ballot."
You think debate is about making judges want to vote for you? hehe, no that's called politics.

"As you can see, judge, the incredible effects of humor justify a clear ballot in favor of the most humorous side."
Ah I see, you're nuts. Ok fine. Crazy people are people too.

FreetimeToBurn

Con

FreetimeToBurn forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

Yep you're burning time alright, not just your own either.
FreetimeToBurn

Con

FreetimeToBurn forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

lalala la LAAAAA
FreetimeToBurn

Con

FreetimeToBurn forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

Incorrect strategy, number one.
FreetimeToBurn

Con

FreetimeToBurn forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by ADreamOfLiberty 3 years ago
ADreamOfLiberty
"Congratulations ADreamOfLiberty, you've just been trolled."
Yes that was apparent some time ago.

"ADreamOfLiberty, your a Lord of the Rings fan, you know this is true. Obviously, this is undisputed scientific evidence that negates your resolution."
Incorrect :p

BTW Nazgul are men who were corrupted by rings of power, they're not dragons. ;)
Posted by Legitdebater 3 years ago
Legitdebater
"If you have seen Lord of The rings or read the books, or seen any of the Harry Potter or read the books, you'll agree. Wizards are ([Censored Word]) awesome
Gandalf killed a Balrog (Big Fire giant), went through Fangorn Forest unharmed, removed power from Sarumon, the dark white wizard, destroyed legions of orcs and fought off a Nazgul (A Dragon, except a whole lot angrier) unharmed"

ADreamOfLiberty, your a Lord of the Rings fan, you know this is true. Obviously, this is undisputed scientific evidence that negates your resolution.
Posted by Legitdebater 3 years ago
Legitdebater
Congratulations ADreamOfLiberty, you've just been trolled.
Posted by UnopinionatedMoron 3 years ago
UnopinionatedMoron
Here is a pleasant backtrack to your debate.
Posted by UnopinionatedMoron 3 years ago
UnopinionatedMoron
Cool story
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
ADreamOfLibertyFreetimeToBurnTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Good job PRO! You definitely won this. Con FF.