The Instigator
Solarman1969
Pro (for)
Losing
39 Points
The Contender
solo
Con (against)
Winning
40 Points

Bhutto's assanination was as predictable as the the sun coming up tomorrow

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/28/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,432 times Debate No: 1089
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (22)

 

Solarman1969

Pro

They tried the 1st day she got off the plane with bombs strapped to a 1 year old

the Islamic militant terrorists (good muslims according to Muhammed) have been trying to get Musharraf for years to no avail- he is military guy

Bhutto was way way too full of herself, having gone to the ivy league schools here , where you get filled full of self importance

She was a FANSTASTIC person, in many ways, and may she rest in peace

But this was TOTALLY predictable, and she was STUPID for going out in Rawalpindi as open as she was with all those woman hating and western hating Islamic nitjobs around

there are probabaly about 50 million in Pak alone

I think the elections will be postponed, and they should be

Nawaz Sharif is the only other conteneder, and he is trouble, if you ask me

Musharraf should maintain a firm grip on things for the forseeable

Benezir Bhutto , may she rest in peace -
solo

Con

This assassination was not as predictable as the Sun coming up tomorrow.

Regardless of the political climate, people *know* the Sun will rise the following day, but no one could have predicted this tragedy.

I have not read or heard of anyone that had foreseen Bhutto's assassination. You can make claims now that hindsight is on your side, but you didn't make any posts prior to this incident that support your claim.
Debate Round No. 1
Solarman1969

Pro

Islamist nutjobs, which are overrunning Pak right now hate, not necessarily in the order

(1) Women

(2) Westerners

(3) Non-Islamists

(4) America and her allies

Bhutto was all four of these, and was to them ,an upstart woman who was off the reservatiion

they hated her with a passion that no sane and rational person could ever know or understand.

the day she got off the plane, they tried and murder her and it was only a 1/1000 chance that she made it through that- she ended up tieing her shoe when the one year old laden with bombs was handed up to her armored vehicle

most of the others around here were vaporized by the large bomb

Now what kind of IDIOT is going to have a 1 mph parade through islamic nutjobland ?

the only reason why musharraf has made it through is he DOESNT do public apperarances.

Pakistan is the most dangerous place on planet earth , even if you have full Islamofascist credentials like Bin Laden

Bin Laden has a 46% approval, Musharraf 37% , Bush 9% in Pakistan

The bottom line is that she was a corrupt selfish person from a long line of them. Her father was deposed and hung for it in the 70s.

This NY Post article sums it up

FOR the next several days, you're going to read and hear a great deal of pious nonsense in the wake of the assassination of Pakistan's former prime minister, Benazir. Her country's better off without her. She may serve Pakistan better after her death than she did in life.

We need have no sympathy with her Islamist assassin and the extremists behind him to recognize that Bhutto was corrupt, divisive, dishonest and utterly devoid of genuine concern for her country.

She was a splendid con, persuading otherwise cynical Western politicians and "hardheaded" journalists that she was not only a brave woman crusading in the Islamic wilderness, but also a thoroughbred democrat.

In fact, Bhutto was a frivolously wealthy feudal landlord amid bleak poverty. The scion of a thieving political dynasty, she was always more concerned with power than with the wellbeing of the average Pakistani. Her program remained one of old-school patronage, not increased productivity or social decency.

Educated in expensive Western schools, she permitted Pakistan's feeble education system to rot - opening the door to Islamists and their religious schools.

During her years as prime minister, Pakistan went backward, not forward. Her husband looted shamelessly and ended up fleeing the country, pursued by the courts. The Islamist threat - which she artfully played both ways - spread like cancer.

But she always knew how to work Westerners - unlike the hapless Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who sought the best for his tormented country but never knew how to package himself.

Military regimes are never appealing to Western sensibilities. Yet, there are desperate hours when they provide the only, slim hope for a country nearing collapse. Democracy is certainly preferable - but, unfortunately, it's not always immediately possible. Like spoiled children, we have to have it now - and damn the consequences

And that is the bottom line

Right now , Pak needs Musharraf to maintain stability

They have nukes and we CANNOT afford to allow that nation to be taken over by Islamonutjobs.

Again, may Ms Bhutto rest in peace.

She was a strong advocate for womens right in the awful muslim world and a strong advocate AGAINST abortion.

But again ,her violent death , which I beleive she wanted to happen, was very very predictable, as predictable as the sun coming up evevry day.
solo

Con

Forgive me, but I do not know what to make of your post. I see a lot of questionable figures and news articles without links to support them.

<>

Where did you draw the "1/1000 chance" statistic and the statement that follows?

Bhutto was hated. So what? I'm a bi-racial gay atheist, so I know what it's like to be hated too. That doesn't mean my death is predictable.
Debate Round No. 2
Solarman1969

Pro

Obviously this topic is a bit much for you

Pakistans politics are very scary, due to there being millions of nutcake Islamic terrorists there, bent on destorying the world.

In terms of her near miss the last time, that was from a press report- it was a huge bomb, was nearby, was attached to a baby that was being handed toward her, and she just happened to bend down at the instant it went off about 15 ft away, obliterating her staff and 130 others around her, but leaving her unharmed.

IN terms of your status as gay, ethnic, or whatever, who cares?

I sure dont

You certainly wouldnt be disriminated against in the gay bay where I live (SF) - maybe you should think about moving

here is some Pak and Bhutto backrground

The tragic but not unexpected assassination of Benazir Bhutto at an election rally in Rawalpindi has pushed Pakistan into far greater internal political turbulence and societal discord than ever before. Civil society in Pakistan is shell-shocked and the possibility of a protracted civil war-like situation cannot be ruled out. The fallout of this dastardly event will add to the many challenges that a beleaguered President Musharraf and the Pakistan military are already facing.

Unconfirmed reports suggest that the Al-Qaida has claimed responsibility for this assassination, describing Bhutto as the most valuable "American asset" who had to be eliminated. Bhutto's uncompromising attitude towards the jihadi forces was well-known and it may be recalled that even before she returned to Pakistan on October 18, Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud had threatened to "welcome" her in a befitting manner. While the interim government in Pakistan has ordered a high-level inquiry, the consensus is that rightwing radicals, tacitly supported by sympathisers in the Pakistan intelligence and security establishment, are the principal perpetrators.

The pattern that thus emerges is fraught with grave security implications for Pakistan as an entity, the physical security of President Musharraf (who has also been targeted by these forces), the cohesiveness of the Pakistan military's command and control and, by extension, the safety of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. It is evident that Bhutto's security cordon that would be of the highest level was breached by a gun-wielding sniper strapped with explosives. This would not have been possible without some degree of local complicity — and the final responsibility rests with the establishment that Musharraf represents. While he may not have been directly complicit, the charge of institutional ineptitude will remain — although individual turpitude by Musharraf may not be a valid charge.

The Pakistan establishment has been denounced angrily for not providing adequate protection to Bhutto and the case of faulty electronic jammers given to her security entourage is being highlighted. It is evident that in the run-up to the January 8 elections, the opposition rallies addressed by Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif have been more vulnerable to well-planned and premeditated attacks while the parties seen to be closer to Musharraf have been safe from such violence. This pattern has added to the many doubts that are being raised about who benefits from Bhutto's demise.

The possibility that there are many elements within the Pakistan security and intelligence establishment who are deeply anti-US and hence anti-Musharraf is very real. This was most palpable after the Lal Masjid military operation in July and in the intervening months the developments in Swat and Waziristan point to the growing influence of the right wing — of whom Baitullah Mehsud is only one exemplar. It is well recognised that post General Zia and the long-drawn-out Afghan War, the Pakistan military had internalised the doctrine of jihad; and this was theologically and politically legitimised as being part of a ‘just war'. With the end of the Soviet occupation that culminated with the demise of the Cold War, these deep socio-religious forces were sought to be exploited by the Pakistan military — first against arch enemy India — and later in gaining strategic depth in Afghanistan.

In the early nineties, India was bled through many wounds of terrorism and low-intensity conflicts, both in Punjab and J&K, even as the Taliban came to power in Kabul. Both initiatives, although tactically innovative, were strategic blunders. Recent history indicates this. India was able to contain the scourge of state-sponsored religious radicalism and terrorism while Afghanistan paid the price for the enormity of 9/11. In the post 9/11 years it was these very socio-religious forces — nurtured in Afghanistan (the Osama bin Laden/Al-Qaida brand name) — acquired their own strategic depth right through Pakistan from Islamabad to Karachi on the Arabian Sea. Paradoxically, it is the same Pakistan military that had once nurtured these extremists which it is now seeking to contain — with limited success. Thus what we now witness is the transformation of a deep Islamist orientation within the Pakistan establishment into one of indignant jihadi militancy among some of its members. The only change is, for the former USSR, read the much-hated USA and, ironically, the persona of Musharraf.

Benazir Bhutto, in her recent public speeches, vehemently opposed this religious right wing-military nexus in the Pakistani establishment and promised to save her country and its people from this spreading malignancy. Furthermore, she even indicated that she would re-open the A.Q. Khan episode, thereby revealing the murky role of the Pakistan ‘fauj' in the clandestine nuclear proliferation network that has been conveniently swept under the carpet and away from public gaze. This threat may have been the final straw that led to her elimination.

Bottom line- Pak is a very dangerous place and we need to support Musharraf and give up the "democracy now" push - it is naive at best, and the State Department fools playing with fire
solo

Con

<>

LOL! Hardly, I was just trying to be polite as you clearly fabricated your statistics. Thankfully, the gloves are off now.

<>

Your assessment of the situation is crude are hardly accurate.

<>

Hence the "1/1000 chance". Got it! I wasn't questioning the actual event having taken place. I was questioning some of your additions to the facts.

<
I sure dont>>

I was clearly letting you know that I have some obvious insight to her situation and cannot predict my assassination; nor can anyone else.

<>

Again, you are wrong. I was born and raised in San Francisco. I lived there for twenty-nine years and despite all of the propaganda and rumors, discriminations against gays exists even there, with which I have first-hand experience.

<
[blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... This threat may have been the final straw that led to her elimination.>>

Yes, it "MAY" have led to her elimination, but the same could be said about what she had for lunch that day. That does not make her assassination predictable.

<>

Sure. I completely agree with you, but the topic of this debate is:
<>

The Sun has been coming up everyday for as long as I have been alive. I can say with absolute certainty that, "The Sun will come up tomorrow." I can say this every single day of my life and it will happen because it has happened countless times. Bhutto's assassination did not happen every day, it happened just once, so there's no possible way that it "was as preditable as the Sun coming up tomorrow". You see, "as" is an adverb meaning: to the same degree, amount, or extent; so you cannot logically apply the prediction of something as consistent as the Sun's daily rising to a one-time assassination.

Thanks for the debate. I hope we can be friends some day! I'll even settle for friendly. Have a great weekend!
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by thirdworldpoet 6 years ago
thirdworldpoet
wats the point of this debate.. sure i mean we no she would die eventually. big deal. i empathize however. the country is run by lunatics
Posted by Lacan 6 years ago
Lacan
Solarman, while, as a communist I take issue with much of what you say, you assessment of paki politics is dead on. I'm surprised Musharraf is still drawing breath to be honest.
Posted by solo 6 years ago
solo
Yeah Leo... I completely agree with you, but again, the topic of this debate is:
<<Bhutto's assanination was AS predictable AS the the sun coming up tomorrow>>

"AS" is an adverb meaning: to the same degree, amount, or extent; so you cannot logically apply the prediction of something as consistent as the Sun's daily rising to a one-time assassination.
Posted by Solarman1969 6 years ago
Solarman1969
hey killa- I got news for you

debate is ALL ABOUT partisanship

the liberals are dead wrong and must be convinced of such
Posted by Solarman1969 6 years ago
Solarman1969
wow- Leonitus - you actually get it

Im shocked !

It must be because you are a conservative and thus, have a brain if you are only 16 (or smart parents)
Posted by Leonitus_Trujillo 6 years ago
Leonitus_Trujillo
she had the most corrupt government In pakistan her first time around. ANd somehow she managed to get into office again and we saw a repeat of her first term. She was an opportunist and was planning on capitalizing on Musharaffs growing unpopularity after the Emergency calling. People say the looked to her for hope, there mustn't have been many options, and they people are quick to forget the past apparently. However she will cause more damage to Pakistan death than she will alive and she must have known that running around the country like she had a death wish even after an attempted assassination that killed 140 people. Now that she's dead she's is probably going to be treated as a martyr that will help her party secure the majority in parliamentary elections and Pakistan is S C R E W E D.
Posted by solo 6 years ago
solo
FINALLY! A LINK!!! Thanks killa!
Posted by killa_connor 6 years ago
killa_connor
"...they hated her with a passion that no sane and rational person could ever know or understand."

"Pakistans politics are very scary, due to there being millions of nutcake Islamic terrorists there, bent on destorying the world."

"We need have no sympathy with her Islamist assassin and the extremists behind him to recognize that Bhutto was corrupt, divisive, dishonest and utterly devoid of genuine concern for her country. "

Demonizing a whole culture and religious tradition based on nothing but rhetoric and generalizations. Just another day for solarman. I would like to vote for you in a debate one day but your total lack of any basic credibility.

You know that the most pitiful part is. These aren't even your words. You just copied and pasted it from a site: http://www.freerepublic.com...

Please learn to think for yourself. It's pitiful that you would bring something that partisan into a real debate in the first place.
Posted by Solarman1969 6 years ago
Solarman1969
Lindsay, take your medicine, little girl , you seem to have forgotten today
Posted by Rousseau 6 years ago
Rousseau
lindsay, I fail to see what is "perverse" about saying "Benezir Bhutto, may she rest in peace" (which in fact you said she should). That being said, I sort of agree with you that it was predictable, andI already have a debate going about it.
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