The Instigator
Truth_seeker
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
RichardCypher
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Bible canon didn't originate in the church

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/6/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 769 times Debate No: 60099
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

Truth_seeker

Pro

I argue that Bible canon already existed and wasn't decided by man for which books are supposed to be divinely inspired

First round acceptance
RichardCypher

Con

i accept. ready
Debate Round No. 1
Truth_seeker

Pro

I would like to point out that no evidence exists to support the belief that the Bible's canon was made by the church, but was already in place as it gradually developed throughput the history of Israel.

Scripture dictates which books are canonical. The Torah has been authenticated in other books (Ex. 17:14; 24:4; 34:27; Num. 33:2; Deut. 31:9, 22, 24; Ezra 3:2; 6:18; 7:6; Ps. 103:7; Josh. 8:31, 23:6; 1 Kings 2:3, Hos. 12:13). Joshua saw Moses as inspired (Joshua 1:8,23:6). Joshua's worked was seen inspired (Jud. 1:1, 20, 21, 2:8). Ruth authenticates Judges (Rut. 1:1). Samuel is inspired (1 Sam. 10). The list goes on.

The DDS manual of discipline declares the writings of Moses and the prophets (same phrase Jesus used) (1). The Zadokite document also does the same (2). Other prophetic writings were also seen as divinely inspired by the Jews (3).Writings such as the Apocrypha were seen as inspired by the Essenes (4).

Josephus further identifies the canonical books:

" For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another (as the Greeks have), but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them, five belong to Moses, which contain his laws, and the traditions of the origin of mankind until his death. This interval of time is little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artexerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets. We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own scriptures. For, although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured to add, or to remove, or to alter anything, and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as decrees of God" (5)

No evidence to exists to support that canon was decided by the council of Jamnia (6).

In regards to the Apocryphal books, Athanasius writes this:

" There are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple." (7)

With that in mind, the Bible canon was not an invention by man, it was simply an organization of books already considered to be divinely inspired.

Sources:

1. Harris, R. Laird. Inspiration and Canonicity of the Scriptures. Greenville, SC, 1995. 140-141.

2. Harris, Stephen. Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto, California: Mayfield Publishing Company. 1985. 9.

3. Harris, R. Laird. Inspiration and Canonicity of the Scriptures. Greenville, SC, 1995. 141.

4. Emphasis mine. Harris, R. Laird. Inspiration and Canonicity of the Scriptures. Greenville, SC, 1995. 141.

5. Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, book 1, paragraph 8.

6. F.L. Cross

7. Athanasius Paschal Letter Letter 39, 367 A.D.
RichardCypher

Con

Canon comes from the Hebrew word, kaneh. Its a standard for measuring. It is a human invented concept to claim authority to determine which so-called Judaism & Christianity religious books deserves to be called God-inspired. The so-called Church Fathers often spoke of religious canonization.
http://www.netplaces.com...

Historians date 367 AD as the year that Athanasius compiled a list of 66 books he thought were divinely inspired. Amazing, he choose 66 books from the old & new testament as inspired and for 1600 years those same 66 books remained unchallenged until Martin Luther & John Calvin disagreed through civil protest.
http://www.biblica.com...

Since canon is a human created word for "standard" and used by humans to lay out a standard upon which books were God-inspire, the verses Truth Seeker uses don't directly imply, as he claimed, "which books are canonical". Canonical, that is, which books are the human standard in determining which books are divinely inspired. His argument can't hold up to the scholarly definition of canon.
Debate Round No. 2
Truth_seeker

Pro

My bad on the first round, i meant to say that the Essenes DID NOT see Apocryphal works as inspired, thus we are left with the Torah, prophetic writings, proverbs, psalms, etc. The DSS is the oldest collection of writings, therefore all of these books I mentioned were already established as canonical, not by the church of Christ. According to the source you gave, 66 books are universally accepted. the sites also fail to provide sources for their claims.

it's safe to say that humans simply observed the books as being inspired and could distinguish between those which aren't,already recognizing the 66 books which are divinely inspired.
RichardCypher

Con

"Universally accepted"
Yes, like I showed you, AFTER one man decided that those 66 were inspired. His analysis led others to follow his words.

It's safe to say that humans simply observe flickering lights & objects in the sky and can distinguish between real light sources & UFOs. Not. Everyday people mistake a flashing light or obscure jet in the sky as a UFO. Some people go as far as to invent an encounter, making up their own alleged truth. Canonization of the Bible is no different than an enthusiast claiming a revelation.

Other than the Timothy verse that has him declaring "all scriptures are inspired by God" there doesn't exist internal evidence of the books establishing their divine origin. "...the literary or historical analysis of these [books], if left to its own resources, ignores their divine origin." http://www.newadvent.org...

Canonization, that is, which books are the human standard in determining which books are divinely inspired.
Debate Round No. 3
Truth_seeker

Pro

Here are all the things my opponent fails to address

" Scripture dictates which books are canonical. The Torah has been authenticated in other books (Ex. 17:14; 24:4; 34:27; Num. 33:2; Deut. 31:9, 22, 24; Ezra 3:2; 6:18; 7:6; Ps. 103:7; Josh. 8:31, 23:6; 1 Kings 2:3, Hos. 12:13). Joshua saw Moses as inspired (Joshua 1:8,23:6). Joshua's worked was seen inspired (Jud. 1:1, 20, 21, 2:8). Ruth authenticates Judges (Rut. 1:1). Samuel is inspired (1 Sam. 10). The list goes on."

"The DDS manual of discipline declares the writings of Moses and the prophets (same phrase Jesus used)" The Zadokite document also does the same. Other prophetic writings were also seen as divinely inspired by the Jews"

"Writings such as the Apocrypha were not seen as inspired by the Essenes"

Josephus said

" For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another (as the Greeks have), but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them, five belong to Moses, which contain his laws, and the traditions of the origin of mankind until his death. This interval of time is little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artexerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets. We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own scriptures. For, although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured to add, or to remove, or to alter anything, and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as decrees of God"

Based on what we've seen, one man did not decide the canon of the Bible.

There is a strict method in finding out which books belong to the Bible without being biased:

1. Did the book indicate God was speaking through the author?

2. Was the author authoritative? (sometimes, the author isn't a recognized figure in the Bible)

3. What does it say on God? (If it doesn't help us spiritually, it's not divinely inspired)

4. Is it historically accurate?

5. Who was the author? (Often times, the Apocryphal writings don't come from the author it claims such as Enoch based on scholarly research)

6. Does the literary style of writing match with it's time period? (Some of the Apocrypha does not match with the rest of the Scripture's style of writing)

With that being said, my opponent failed to clearly present evidence on this debate proving that the Bible's canon was decided by the church.
RichardCypher

Con

Perhaps Pro is banking on you-all not to read the verses and just accept his word. But none of the verses imply:

The Torah has been authenticated in other books (Actually what is mentioned is simply that the "Law was written" this does not prove the "referring book" was written by God or commissioned by God.
https://www.biblegateway.com...
Joshua saw Moses as inspired (Says nothing about Joshua SAW/precieved/said/declared/etc. Moses was inspired by God to write the book).
https://www.biblegateway.com...
Joshua's worked was seen inspired (No one claims Joshua was inspired.)
https://www.biblegateway.com...
Ruth authenticates Judges (No such claim is made in this verse.)
https://www.biblegateway.com...
"In the days when the judges ruled there was a famine in the land, and a man of Bethlehem in Judah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he and his wife and his two sons."
Samuel is inspired Samuel gives a speech, never claiming God inspired him to write any book of the Bible.)
https://www.biblegateway.com...


"The DDS manual of discipline declares the writings of Moses"
A writing written (DDS) written after a writing (Law of Moses). Ok.
SKWikia,com declares the writings of Stephen King. So is Stephen King divinely inspired too by God to write? According to Pro's line of reasoning, yes.
http://stephenking.wikia.com...

same phrase Jesus used
House divided against itself cannot stand.
Same phrase Lincoln used http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org...
So if Morgan Freeman says the same phrase that authenicated the Bible, right? How about Barbara Walters? maybe Phil Mickelson, right?

Josephus has been proven to have made errors & fabrications.
http://www.johnthebaptist.us...

My strongest rebuttal is showing Pro has failed his burden of proof in estabishing "Bible canon already existed and wasn't decided by man" esp. through bible verses. I showed they don't establish a Godly inspiration and that man invented that concept to cling to something supposedly greater than them. Canon comes from the Hebrew word, kaneh. Its a standard for measuring. It is a human invented concept to claim authority to determine which so-called Judaism & Christianity religious books deserves to be called God-inspired. The so-called Church Fathers often spoke of religious canonization.
http://www.netplaces.com......


Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
i know, i'ma stop doing that cuz it's not working out
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
Elo restrictions will greatly limit who can vote, dude.
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
Protestant
Posted by Codedlogic 2 years ago
Codedlogic
Which Bible?
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
My bad, I fixed it a bit, wanna debate?
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Your title and your resolution aren't the same. Arguing that biblical canon did not originate from the church is different than biblical canon not originating from humans.
No votes have been placed for this debate.