The Instigator
MysticEgg
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
leandro.sanchez
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Biblical Young Earth Creationism is scientifically probable.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
MysticEgg
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/7/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 970 times Debate No: 37459
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (14)
Votes (2)

 

MysticEgg

Con

Welcome everyone to this debate!

I hope to give a chance to any opponent who wishes to show me (and indeed, the Internet), that BYEC (Biblical Young Earth Creationism) is scientifically probable.

I will define BYEC as follows:

"The belief that the God described in the Bible created the Earth in six literal Earth days; the belief that the Earth is between 5,700 and 10,000 literal Earth years old; the belief that this god created humans in their present "form" (homosapien); and the belief that there were originally two humans (one man and one woman) that lived in a perfect place known as "The Garden of Eden"."

This definition isn't perfect, and if you want to change it then please post a comment; every Creationist has certain differences in their beliefs, after all. The definition above is not fixed. However, my opponent must agree to the definition of the God described in the Bible as:

"Omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful to the extent of the logically possible), omnipresent (all-present, always there, everywhere), and omnibenevolent (always right, always moral, all-good)."

Unless anyone thinks that this definition is inherently flawed, this is not a debatable definition. So, I believe all the other definitions speak for themselves, so I will now state the rules:

1) The first round is not for acceptance only; the first round is for both acceptance of the rules and for Pro's opening case.
2) In the fifth round, Pro must state (and only state) the following "No argument posted here as agreed".
3) The BoP is on Pro to prove the resolution to be correct. The BoP is on Con to prove Pro's contentions as false, thus stopping Pro from meeting his/her burden.
4) A forfeit of a round is an automatic loss of conduct (regardless of the reason), but it is only a loss of conduct.
5) There can be no "Vote Pro" or "Vote Con" at the end of the debate unless one of the debaters consented.
6) Sources are considered accurate unless proved to be otherwise. ((Therefore, Wikipedia, TalkOrigins, AnswersInGenesis etc... are considered accurate, although the reliability of the sources will be up to the voters.))


I believe that's all, if anybody has any questions, please post a comment! Good luck to all, and allez!
leandro.sanchez

Pro

My opponent has stated a creationist point of view but has said that I could change it in the comments what I did.
The original creationist point of view in this video: . The belief that the God described in the Bible created the Earth in six literal Earth days; the belief that the Earth is between 5,700 and 10,000 literal Earth years old; the belief that this god created humans in their present "form" (homosapien); and the belief that there were originally two humans (one man and one woman) that lived in a perfect place known as "The Garden of Eden.
First let"s explain this point of view.
Point 1:-god created the earth in six earth days.(that the creation of earth toke 6 days.)
Point 2-that the earth is described in the Bible created the Earth in six literal Earth days; the belief that the Earth is between 5,700 and 10,000 literal Earth years old.
Point3- the belief that this god created humans in their present "form" (homosapien); and the belief that there were originally two humans (one man and one woman) that lived in a perfect place known as "The Garden of Eden.
Point 4: God is"Omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful to the extent of the logically possible), omnipresent (all-present, always there, everywhere), and omnibenevolent (always right, always moral, all-good)."
My changes to this creationist point of view:
Point1:no changes
Point 2:the Earth is not 6 days old.
Point 3:God created us humans.but not homosapien he created our souls.The first souls were Adam and Eve and they lived in a perfect place called "The Garden of Eden".
Point4:no objections
Explanation to my point of view:

Point1 -God created the Earth. But first bevore I explain why I think this is true I have to expain what is god .God is not something with a solid matter he isn"t a physical being.
Argument supporting my claim :If god is physical an eternal than a beginning of time would not have taken place because were there is matter there is time .so if god was a material being than time would always have existed. Because all material things have a cause.
For example you are there because your parents gave birth to you.
What is God then if he isn"t material isn"t bound by time because he is an eternal being(defenitiont of eternal something that has always exsisted and always will)?
God is Energy all the creation view of modern physiques and the big bang theory function were caused by energy.
Creation of my creationist point of view and the big bang point of view: The big bang theory: At this time, the Universe was in an extremely hot and dense state and began expanding rapidly. After the initial expansion, the Universe cooled sufficiently to allow energy to be converted into various subatomic particles, including protons,neutrons, and electrons. Though simple atomic nuclei formed within the first three minutes after the Big Bang, thousands of years passed before the first electrically neutral atoms formed. The majority of atoms that were produced by the Big Bang are hydrogen, along with helium and traces of lithium. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through gravity to form stars and galaxies, and the heavier elements were synthesized either within stars or during supernovae.
If God is energy than he is the cause of everything because everything happens trough energy example Earth what is Gravety ?Energy that keeps us together. Matter is attracted to each other because of energy making . how was earth created of scientific point of view gravety pulled bigh shunk of matter rock togheter.but this only happened because of energie in this case gravety .
So if god is gravety than god did created everything because everything you see had beginning in an explosion of pure energy that was the big bang.
Other arguments that support my claim from a biblical and scientific point of view:
Argument 1:If god is energy than it is normal that we can"t see him
Because the very definition of the word energy in physiques means: In physics energy is a conserved extensive property of a physical system, which cannot be observed directly but can be calculated from its state.
What does this explain :Why we can"t see god energy cannot be observed directly(scientific support to my claim)
God said: you cannot see my face, for no one may see my and live. Exodus 33:20(biblical support to my claim.)
Also if god is all energy that also means god is all powerfull .what are todays most powerfull weapons nukes that work on energy(nuclear energy).
God created everything because everything we see today we owe to energy life and planets simply everything .
But the big bang theory never explained from where the energy originated is almost as if it was considered eternal.just like god.
Energie can not be created we can only use the energy that is alredy there.Life can not start without energie.
God is also omni present because energy is every were. Support to my claim heath is energy and the absolute zero in has never been reached in a lab and never been observed in the universe there is always some heath in a substance .So there is always energy in a substance so god is every where.

Point 2 the age of the Earth:
The Earth is 1 year old 456678 years old and 21 years old. Because time is relative so the earth has different ages depending were you are in the universe.As every person with some prime knowledge in physiques alredy knows.Time is dependend on Matter so were there is more matter time flows slowly .like Einstein tought us. So some where in the universe the creation of earth toke 6 days in an other point of the universe earth"s creation has not finish yet because for them time flows very slowly.
Prove of that fact Einsteins theory of space time.
Point 3:God created us in his image but as I have alredy explained god is the energy that keeps everything working. So if god created us in his image we can"t be something that has a body. God created us but what are we are we our bodies our brains ?no we are a soul and the bible says that wen a body is born god gives it a soul.We are not bodies of flesh and blood we are souls in a body god created us not our bodies .bodies are born but god gives us our souls .
As I have alredy explained god isn"t a being that has mass he isn"t something you can touch.The bible says we are maid in his image that means we are not bodies our souls are maid in his image .If we go to heaven our souls go not our bodies our bodies stay here on earth.We are like god our souls can"t be touched our made an image of just like god. Adam and eve were Adults they had the capacity of thinking early on they had not to wait to grow up proving theier had no bodies,and they had no sons in paradies because they weren"t had no material form where they could have given birth but when they are expulsed from heaven they can suffer and age a soul does not suffer or age. Proving that Adam and eve have been given a body by god to punish us to let us suffer hunger fear (would you be afraid if you had no bodie?no because nothing could harm you).
God gave eve and Adam a bodies to punish them but the body could have been evolving from appes god only woud have needed to give Adam and eve souls to newborn creature like a homosapien or maybe a homo erectus or any other in the line of evolution.
Point 4:If God is energy than we can not see him as no one can see energy he is every were and extremely powerfull.Energy exist from the begining of time if we thrust the big bang theory.So god nows it all because he is every were and created every thing.
Conclusion God is every were because he is the energy that kepps everything going ,he created our souls not our bodies,he is responsabel for the earth since it took energy to g"create eberithing he could have taken 6 days to create earth since time is relative.
I will put the sources in my last argument.
Debate Round No. 1
MysticEgg

Con

I thank my opponent for his opening arguments; I will be both short and concise.

My opponent gives no real argument, only ifs so to speak.
If God existed he would be invisible. For example. I need not respond to those contentions, because my opponent has to prove God's existence before we get into the ifs.

Therefore, the only thing I need to respond to is my opponent's idea of the age of the Earth. My opponent says that the Earth is every age at once, because of the light travelling. However, this is not true. The Earth is ~4.5 billion years old[1]. Until my opponent gives evidence to suggest otherwise; all I need do is show how my opponent's contention is incorrect -I'll do this now.

It's true that the light from the Earth when it was six days old is probably still in the Universe somewhere. However, that doesn't make the Earth younger. All it means is that certain areas of space have the ability to "see into the past". Nothing more and nothing less; it certainly doesn't affect the age of the Earth.

While this seems a little too short at first glance; I really need do no more. My opponent's arguments are summed up as:
Ifs and one misunderstanding of relativity. So I believe nothing else is required. I eagerly await my opponent's response(s)!

Source(s):

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
leandro.sanchez

Pro

My opponent has not done a single argument and his single argument was that the earth was ~4.5 billion years old. What I do not deny earth is 4.5 bilions years old but my opponent does not understand the theory of relativity.
Einsteins theory states: more faster you travel more slow your time passes in comparasion to the rest of the universe how moves slower.
More gravety you have more slower you time passes .more gravitational pull you have more you stop time in fact time almost stops in a black hole.
Now that all people got the basics of the theory of relativity ,you understand that time is relative and what is a second for us on earth could be a century somewhere else in the universe .
So now you now that time is relative so the time that took to create earth here took millions if not billion of years here could have been 6 days somewhere else in the universe.
MysticEgg I hope this is an good explanation to your counter on the age of the earth unless you want to debate Einsteins theory I would suggest that we both accept that time is relative.
Debate Round No. 2
MysticEgg

Con

I thank my opponent for his responses; I will respond with mine.

In the last round, I made two refutes.

1) All but one of my opponent's arguments makes the assumption that if God existed; God would be xyz etc...
2) Einstein's theory of relativity does not make the Earth simultaneously ~4.5 billion and ~6 days old.

As for refute one, my opponent does not make any attempt to counter it; I therefore extend my refutes there.

On refute two, I would be prepared to consent this, except my opponent gives no source. I have not studied the theory of relativity, but I cannot consent until my opponent gives sources containing proof, or the proof typed up.

Until this happens, we cannot reach an agreement. If I'm wrong and just being a pain, I do sincerely apologise. But me saying one thing, and my opponent saying another means that we need a resolution and not a blind consent of "whatever, let's go with your claim".

I will back up my claim with a source[1] - and I would ask my opponent to do the same. Merely stating that I don't understand it, therefore, you're right is not logical. I will, therefore, await my opponent's proof and/or source.

Now, my opponent states: "My opponent has not done a single argument..." This is true, however I do not need to make a single argument, only refutes.

"...the BoP is on Con to prove Pro's contentions as false." It is stated in the rules. So, since I have extended one of my refutes, and refined the other, all I have to do now is thank my opponent for his time, the audience, and the voters for their time, and sign off.

Until next round!

Source(s):

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
leandro.sanchez

Pro

To my opponents refutes
1 my oppnent says that i dont prove the existenz of god i just say if god existed he would do xyz abx....
I sayd god was energy .so i only have to prove the existenz of energy because i consider god to be energy.
2 time is relative it is the most important theory since 1920.
http://science.howstuffworks.com...
This givesnow the responsability to my opponent to prove einsteinstheory to be wrong and prove energy isnt real or isnt god.
But i alredy lost the debatte my opponent will make all of his arguments in the last round were i will be unable to counter them.
Debate Round No. 3
MysticEgg

Con

I thank my opponent for his response; I will now respond.

My opponent's refute is:
"I sayd god was energy" therefore, God is energy. This is highly illogical. If my opponent considers energy to be God, then he is proving the existence of energy and sticking the name God onto it. However, God is not energy, because energy does not have a conscience. So my opponent has proven energy to exist and changed its name. My opponent has yet to prove God to exist. Please note the definition; energy goes against it.

My opponent has shown how time is relative; I never denied this. I denied that age is relative. My opponent has yet to prove how age is relative, so far he has proven only time to be relative. So I don't have to prove how Einstein's theory is wrong or how energy doesn't exist. However, my opponent still has to prove the following:

The Earth was created in six days.
The Earth is between 5,700 and 10,000 years old.
The Garden of Eden existed.
Souls exist(ed).
God exists.

I will therefore look forward to an entertaining round!



leandro.sanchez

Pro

My opponent has stated in his stated in his first argument round that i could change the defenition of creationism and so i did i consider god to be energy and i stayed true to my defenition of creationism since even my opponent has considers energy to be real my opponent tries to escape his own laws but he has stated that i can change the defenition of creationism and i did.

Now i will explain to my opponent how space time really works.
But first what is age?
How much time you exist .And if even my opponent has admited that time is relative ,so how much time you exist is also relative.
And if how much time you exist is relative then your age is also relative.

But for the people like me that need a more practice way to see the univers .
Imagin my opponent has agreed that time is relative so i will use that to explain how age is relative.
So time is relative imagin that you would leave earth to a planet where time pased with half of the speed it passes on earth and you woul stay there for 2 days.if you returned to earth for the people on earth you would have grown older 4 days but for you it would have been to 2 days.If you were 60 here on earth you would bee 30 years there on that planet. your age would be relative.

So with that argument i have proven that the age of earth and the time of its creation is relative.

Now to eden i do not consider eden to be a physicall place just where the two human soul were that is my defenition of creationism.so to prove that point i only have to prove souls to be real.
But first i needto explain what a soul is .A soul is you.but what is you ? Your body ?your brain ?
It is not your body people how have lost an arm do not lose a piece of their conscienness .is it your brain people how have been lobotamize (lost have of their brain) Still had their conscieness .ok but lets assume it just the brain how does the brain work electronicke impulses.electronicke energy.energy o just like god because we are maid in his image but what happens when the electro pulses of a brain stop well than he is dead.its like the energy was kepping him alive.energy cant be seen or touched but it is there imaterial just like a soul.a right because enegy is your soul.
Well he is my response only using logic.
Debate Round No. 4
MysticEgg

Con

I thank my opponent for his final responses; allow me the courtesy.

I will break down my opponent's text paragraph at a time:

"My opponent has stated in his stated in his first argument round that i could change the definition of creationism and so i did i consider god to be energy and i stayed true to my defenition of creationism since even my opponent has considers energy to be real my opponent tries to escape his own laws but he has stated that i can change the defenition of creationism and i did."
I did indeed state that you could change the definition of Creationism. I also stated that:


"Unless anyone thinks that this definition [of God] is inherently flawed, this is not a debatable definition." You never stated that you wished to change this definition, indeed, you even called it "point 4" and stated "Point4:no objections" Therefore, I can safely extend my refute that my opponent merely changed the definition of God (which was against the aforementioned rules) and effectively proved the existence of energy. Nothing more.

My opponent offers proof that age is relative:
"imagin that you would leave earth to a planet where time pased with half of the speed it passes on earth and you woul stay there for 2 days.if you returned to earth for the people on earth you would have grown older 4 days but for you it would have been to 2 days.If you were 60 here on earth you would bee 30 years there on that planet. your age would be relative."
This does not show how age is relative; this shows how your body clock can be slowed down. Your age would still be x, and it doesn't matter where people are in the Universe relative to you; you would still be x. Of course your body clock could delay you aging (in a regard), but your age would still be set.


It's like a speeding car. You can go at all different speeds and ways, but it's still a car.

My opponent has not shown how age is relative.

My opponent considers Eden a place where the first two souls were. But this does not mean that he proves Eden by proving souls (which I'll come onto); my opponent still has to show how they were in Eden and not on Mars somewhere. My opponent considers your soul to be electrical impulses. Since he is allowed to change his definition of Creationism (not God which he invalidly did); then my opponent considering brain energy to be souls is fine. Therefore, if my opponent considers this to be souls, I'll consent that to him. Souls (brain energy) do indeed exist.

Well, that was my opponent's response and (due to my refutes) still failed to adequately prove the following:

God exists.
The Garden of Eden existed.
The Earth was created in six days.
The Earth is 5,700-10,000 years old.

From this, I conclude that my opponent has failed to meet the burden set out. Before I go, I would like to stress to my opponent that in his last post, he should type - and only type - the agreed sentence. My opponent in "version two" of this debate failed to do this and keep to the rules. Thank you.

Lastly, allow me to thank my opponent, leandro.sanchez, for this entertaining and interesting debate. I would also like to thank the audience and the voter for their time and the voters (again!) for voting. I hope to see another debate soon!

Kind regards,
J




leandro.sanchez

Pro

No argument posted here as agreed
Debate Round No. 5
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MysticEgg 3 years ago
MysticEgg
Thank you, Leandro. I'm glad reason and respect prevailed.
Posted by leandro.sanchez 3 years ago
leandro.sanchez
Screw it if you want to win like that you can have it i will prove you wrong in an other debatte.
Posted by leandro.sanchez 3 years ago
leandro.sanchez
but your argumesent is to easly debunked is like an invitation to be destroyed!!you did that on purpose to piss me off using that old debatte trick that only works when you have the last word to say!
Posted by MysticEgg 3 years ago
MysticEgg
I cannot stop you, of course. However, it would really show through your respect for the rules and your priorities. It would also violate your conduct.
Posted by leandro.sanchez 3 years ago
leandro.sanchez
Mystic eeg your last rounds refutes are simply wrong and what happens if i break the rules?lose a price iwould willingli pay to show the voters your really logic lacked arguments.
Posted by leandro.sanchez 3 years ago
leandro.sanchez
The debate is about if it is probabel if it is a probability.
Posted by SkepticLankan 3 years ago
SkepticLankan
Scientifically possible? is it a joke? If creationism is science, we probability learn it under science, why don't we? Because we don't have evidence. Isn't bible evidence for creationism? no, we need actual evidence, not written resources. Written resources doesn't qualify or testify as factual evidence in labs.
Posted by leandro.sanchez 3 years ago
leandro.sanchez
mystic egg you get einsteins theory of relativity right?
Posted by MysticEgg 3 years ago
MysticEgg
Hey, umm...I never said the Earth was 6 days old. But I'm glad you don't think so, either!
Posted by leandro.sanchez 3 years ago
leandro.sanchez
thanks
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Projectid 3 years ago
Projectid
MysticEggleandro.sanchezTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct is tied. Con gets S/G because the Pro had several spelling and grammatical errors. Con had consistent arguments, while the Pro conceded to a 4.5 billion year old earth, which give the win to Con. The Con had more reliable sources.
Vote Placed by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
MysticEggleandro.sanchezTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: I have no idea what Pro was even trying to argue. He agrees that the earth is 4.5 billion years old so at that point, he has already agreed to cons resolution. So I am at a loss at to why he took this debate. cons grammar was also noticeably better and he had sources.