The Instigator
jimtimmy
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
LogicalThinker
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Black-White IQ Differences are Significantly Genetic

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
jimtimmy
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/28/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,227 times Debate No: 18078
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (15)
Votes (2)

 

jimtimmy

Pro

This is a debate about Black White IQ differences.

I argue that the Black White IQ difference is Significantly Genetic (although not entirely Genetic).

Basically, Con needs to argue that Black White IQ differences are almost entirely non genetic

This debate is about Black White IQ differences, however IQ differences between other races and groups can be brought up to support an argument.


First Round is for Acceptance Only (as I am not using this round to make any arguments)



Feel free to ask any questions or comment...





EDIT: Based on Advice from the Comments Section, I have decided to add that there is a documented difference in average IQ scores between Whites and Blacks. It is about 15 points (Whites score about 100, while Blacks score about 85, on average)


The reason for this gap is the topic of this debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

LogicalThinker

Con

I accept your challenge. Good luck.

Firstly; the basis for your argument is flawed. Many scientists deny the effectiveness of the IQ ( Intelligence Quotient ) test. The BBC 'Horizon' programme claims that the IQ test 'tells half the story... at most.' In an attempt to determine the effectiveness of the IQ test they tested seven different experts-- A super jet pilot, a chess grandmaster, a quantum physicist, a musical prodigy, a dramatist, a Wall Street trader, and an artist. They all got very different scores despite the fact that they're all experts in their own field. The academics came first and the creative came last. This suggests that IQ tests only measure academic intelligence. So; is it fair to say that a white physicist is cleverer than a black artist?

http://tiny.cc...

All Homo Sapiens Sapiens originated in the Rift Valley in Africa some 50000 years ago. This too suggests that all races have the same intelligence as no great evolutionary change happened after this time.

http://tiny.cc...

Finally; 'black' isn't a race. Are you suggesting that every-one who has black skin is intelligently inferior or are you suggesting that only black, first generation Africans are intelligently inferior?

I look forward to the ensuing debate.
Debate Round No. 1
jimtimmy

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate.


Rebutting My Opponent's Arguments



Importance of IQ



My Opponent first claims that: "Firstly; the basis for your argument is flawed. Many scientists deny the effectiveness of the IQ".


I don't know exactly what his point is here. Although I believe that IQ is a very important for life outcomes, that is not the topic of this debate. This is about the Black-White IQ gap, and it's cause.


The IQ test is meant to measure intelligence. And, not all fields require the same intelligence to be an expert in.


My opponent says: "So; is it fair to say that a white physicist is cleverer than a black artist?"



I would say that a Physicist of any color is most likely smarter than a Artist of any color (in most cases).



Evolutionary History



My Opponent says:


"All Homo Sapiens Sapiens originated in the Rift Valley in Africa some 50000 years ago. This too suggests that all races have the same intelligence as no great evolutionary change happened after this time."




This does not suggest that at all. The article my opponent linked actually does more to hurt his point and help mine. Here is a direct quote from the article my opponent linked to:


"That's because populations built up genetic and physical diversity for some 150,000 years before the fossil record suggests the first pioneers started spreading elsewhere."



This means that the researchers of this point believe that there is a lot of genetic diversity in the world. Even more importantly, the article points out that those that descend from Europe are very genetically different those from Africa. The article my opponent cited is actually a point for the Genetics side of this debate.


Black Race


"Finally; 'black' isn't a race. Are you suggesting that every-one who has black skin is intelligently inferior or are you suggesting that only black, first generation Africans are intelligently inferior?"


This is not at all what I am arguing. I am saying that, on average, blacks have a lower intellligence than whites. Many individual blacks are very smart.

As far as race goes, I am talking about Americans largely descended from Africa, the traditional definition of African American.



My Arguments


A 60 page review of scientific evidence found that racial IQ differences were genetic, based on:
  • "The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, both in the U. S. and in Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.
    • Race Differences are Most Pronounced on Tests that Best Measure the General Intelligence Factor (g). Black-White differences, for example, are larger on the Backward Digit Span test than on the less g loaded Forward Digit Span test.

    • The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.

    • Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.

    • Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.

    • Racial Admixture Studies. Black children with lighter skin, for example, average higher IQ scores. In South Africa, the IQ of the mixed-race "Colored" population averages 85, intermediate to the African 70 and White 100.

    • IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.

    • Race Differences in Other "Life-History" Traits. East Asians and Blacks consistently fall at two ends of a continuum with Whites intermediate on 60 measures of maturation, personality, reproduction, and social organization. For example, Black children sit, crawl, walk, and put on their clothes earlier than Whites or East Asians.
    • Race Differences and the Out-of-Africa theory of Human Origins. East Asian-White-Black differences fit the theory that modern humans arose in Africa about 100,000 years ago and expanded northward. During prolonged winters there was evolutionary selection for higher IQ created by problems of raising children, gathering and storing food, gaining shelter, and making clothes.
    • Do Culture-Only Theories Explain the Data? Culture-only theories do not explain the highly consistent pattern of race differences in IQ, especially the East Asian data. No interventions such as ending segregation, introducing school busing, or "Head Start" programs have reduced the gaps as culture-only theory would predict."



This evidence suggests that the Black White IQ gap is significantly genetic:


(My Opponent's Article that supported My Points) http://news.nationalgeographic.com...


(Review of Scientific Literature Study) http://www.news-medical.net...;






















LogicalThinker

Con

Rebuttals


Importance of IQ

"My Opponent first claims that: "Firstly; the basis for your argument is flawed. Many scientists deny the effectiveness of the IQ".

I don't know exactly what his point is here. Although I believe that IQ is a very important for life outcomes, that is not the topic of this debate. This is about the Black-White IQ gap, and it's cause."

The reason this is important is because if the IQ test is flawed then asking why black people have a lower IQ than white people is like asking why Super Man can fly and Bat Man can't.

You claim: "The IQ test is meant to measure intelligence. And, not all fields require the same intelligence to be an expert in."

So; my opponent is admitting that there are different types of intelligence, yet he does not explain how the IQ test attempts to encompass these various intelligences. Regardless; he goes on to say: "I would say that a Physicist of any color is most likely smarter than a Artist of any color (in most cases)". This statement clearly contradicts his statement about there being various intelligences.


Evolutionary History

"That's because populations built up genetic and physical diversity for some 150,000 years before the fossil record suggests the first pioneers started spreading elsewhere."

Yes; this happened for 150000 years BEFORE the first pioneers began to move elsewhere, not after.


Black Race

OK; so you're arguing that black people, descended from Africa, have a lower average intelligence than every-one else. You're lucky this argument hasn't been reported yet.



Your arguments

"Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks."

This is true. Also; elephants have far larger brains than us. Are you suggesting that black people are stupider than elephants as well?


I can't really argue your other points because to argue these points you have to assume the IQ test to be infallible. Until you can prove this to be the case; it doesn't matter what any-one's IQ is.

In the mean-time, though, you may care to read this article-- http://abagond.wordpress.com...
Debate Round No. 2
jimtimmy

Pro

I thank my opponent for responding



Importance of IQ



My opponent does not understand what I was saying here. My point was that there is one single measure of intelligence (that IQ measures fairly accuratley). Now, you can be an expert in, say, plumbing and not have an extremely high IQ, because it does not take an extraodinary mind to master plumbing. It does, however, take a very smart person to master Physics.




Evolutionary History


The point here is that the out of Africa theory strengthens genetic differences, rather than weakens it. The study I linked to explains:



"Race Differences and the Out-of-Africa theory of Human Origins. East Asian-White-Black differences fit the theory that modern humans arose in Africa about 100,000 years ago and expanded northward. During prolonged winters there was evolutionary selection for higher IQ created by problems of raising children, gathering and storing food, gaining shelter, and making clothes."





Black Race

"OK; so you're arguing that black people, descended from Africa, have a lower average intelligence than every-one else. You're lucky this argument hasn't been reported yet."


My opponent is trying to say that I should be reported because I am saying that black people have a lower average intelligence than other races in a debate entitled "Black-White IQ differences are significantly genetic"... Does my opponent even realize what this debate is about... If this offends my opponent, he should not have accepted a debate about this topic...





My Arguments



The key issue here is Brain to body ratio... Elephants are huge, this would explain why they can have large brains and not be smarter...


What I have to do in this debate is prove that Black White IQ differences are somewhat genetic... that is it...





"































LogicalThinker

Con

Importance Of IQ

"My opponent does not understand what I was saying here. My point was that there is one single measure of intelligence (that IQ measures fairly accuratley). Now, you can be an expert in, say, plumbing and not have an extremely high IQ, because it does not take an extraodinary mind to master plumbing. It does, however, take a very smart person to master Physics".

And my point was that there is no one test that can measure an 'all 'round' intelligence[1]. You still have not given conclusive evidence that the IQ test can measure an 'all 'round' intelligence. In fact; you haven't even proved that there is an 'all 'round intelligence.

If, for example, I entitled a debate 'George Bush Is More Right Wing Than Hitler Was Because He Was Dropped On The Head At Birth' then I would have to start by proving that Bush is, in fact, more right wing than Hitler was. In the same way; you have prove that the IQ test is infallible.

Until you can prove these things; people will, by default, vote con as the basis for your argument is unsubstantiated.


Evolutionary History

You must prove that there is an all round intelligence and that it can be measured using the IQ test before this can be debated.


Black Race

Please refer to the heading 'Importance of IQ'. The reason I accepted the debate was to make sure Pro is forced to prove the infallibility of the IQ test.


Brain Size

You say: "The key issue here is Brain to body ratio... Elephants are huge, this would explain why they can have large brains and not be smarter..." Yet you quote: "Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster". A clear contradiction.

Also; you quoted: "Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40".

.4 what?

Pro's Burden Of Proof

Please refer to the heading: 'Importance Of IQ'.


[1] http://tinyurl.com...
Debate Round No. 3
jimtimmy

Pro

I thank my opponent for responding, even though there was not much of a response.



The fact is that this debate was ONLY about the CAUSE of the black-white IQ gap... This debate has NOTHING to do with the importance of IQ... Although that is a good topic for futured debate...


My opponent has not responded to a single argument yet...



As far as the Brain Size thing goes, my opponent says:


"Also; you quoted: "Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40".

.
4 what?"



This is just basic correlation...




I will say that my opponent has put NO evidence on the table. In fact, no argument has really been advanced. Instead, he has just tried to change the topic...


Voting pro is the only logical thing to do...
LogicalThinker

Con

As I have the last say I won't write anything that my opponent would want to respond to. I will simply say that my opponent, after three rounds of debating, has not provided any evidence to suggest that there is an 'all round' intelligence and that this can be measured accurately using the IQ test. Therefore any differences in the IQ of different races might as well be non-existent. No proof for the fallibility of the IQ test = no proof for differences in IQ scores.
Debate Round No. 4
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Molzahn 5 years ago
Molzahn
That was a poor approach to the debate, logicalthinker. Next time in this circumstance, attack the opponent's argumentation by emphasizing nature versus nurture. Argue that genetics aren't the determining factor in IQ differences, but culture is. Better luck next time.
Posted by LogicalThinker 5 years ago
LogicalThinker
You argued that the differences are down to genetics. I argued that the differences are down to the IQ test being flawed.
Posted by jimtimmy 5 years ago
jimtimmy
Feverish,

Same here on both counts. I may repost debate once I finish all current debates... Maybe we can debate it then?

Logicalthinker,

I don't think you understand. This had NOTHING to do with what IQ meant... It was only about the difference between blacks and whites in IQs... That is it...
Posted by LogicalThinker 5 years ago
LogicalThinker
If, for example, the results of the IQ test are falsified then the results can't be given any notice. Pro must prove that the IQ test gives true answers before he speculates over the reason for different IQ scores between different races.
Posted by feverish 5 years ago
feverish
"No proof for the fallibility of the IQ test = no proof for differences in IQ scores."

Does not follow. Why does a test need to be infallible in order to discuss it's results? If you said "No proof for the [in]fallibility of the IQ test = no proof for differences in actual intelligence" you would have a point.

If Pro is interested in another debate on this issue then I would like to take him up on it in the future, although I don't have much time to devote to debate right now.
Posted by jimtimmy 5 years ago
jimtimmy
OMG is right. If you wanted to debate the importance of IQ, then that is an interesting, but different, debate...
Posted by OMGJustinBieber 5 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
No, "This is a debate about Black White IQ differences" first line of the text. Pro did not claim a black-white divide in some unmeasurable "general" intelligence. Saying that Pro "can't prove the infallibility of the IQ test" doesn't mean anything, and not what the debate was about.
Posted by LogicalThinker 5 years ago
LogicalThinker
And those differences that you are talking about are in IQ. So; if you can't prove the infallibility of the IQ test then you have no argument.
Posted by jimtimmy 5 years ago
jimtimmy
This debate had nothing to do with the importance of IQ... only why differences between blacks and whites exist...
Posted by LogicalThinker 5 years ago
LogicalThinker
As I have the last say I won't write anything that my opponent would want to respond to. I will simply say that my opponent, after three rounds of debating, has not provided any evidence to suggest that there is an 'all round' intelligence and that this can be measured accurately using the IQ test. Therefore any differences in the IQ of different races might as well be non-existent. No proof for the fallibility of the IQ test = no proof for differences in IQ scores.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by feverish 5 years ago
feverish
jimtimmyLogicalThinkerTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Although I agree with the Con position, I have to give the points here to Pro. The resolution is specifically about IQ test results, but Con tried to flip this to being a debate about "all round intelligence" Pro made arguments that Con didn't respond to.
Vote Placed by OMGJustinBieber 5 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
jimtimmyLogicalThinkerTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: "I can't really argue your other points because to argue these points you have to assume the IQ test to be infallible." No, and the issue of the relative validity of the IQ test repeatedly brought up by Con is a red herring. Pro provided arguments, Con had no genuine response but to divert the debate.