The Instigator
MasterDZJ
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
Mikel
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Black people should support Hispanic immigration!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,559 times Debate No: 1230
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (8)

 

MasterDZJ

Pro

Black people, both men and women, should be in full support of Hispanic immigration. I believe that any person who is against immigration, we can only justifiably assume, is also pro-America in its current condition. With that being said, I believe it is completely absurd for any person of color to be in favor of a system that subjugates, tortures, and exploits not only their physical well-being, but also their mental and spiritual. So if Blacks are confined to a system of White supremacy and racism it would be in there best interest to form an alliance with any willing or possible participants which may result in their mental, physical, or spiritual liberation. It is insane for Black people to continuously hope in the same American system and the same American leaders for answers to their problems that will only come through self-determination, self-reliance and a coalition with people in the same social status.
Mikel

Con

There seems to be a flaw or two with your argument and that is that you assume that all black people are the subject of subjugation and torture in the United States, which I personally do not see, and you insinuate that the only people being treated like the blacks are fellow minorities, ignoring the fellow whites who are also destitute. I think you need to provide evidence that in contemporary America black people are being treated in the way you claim.

In my opinion, when you say subjugation I think of it being in terms of politically, economically, and socially. Politically speaking, look at Barack Obama. While he may be only half black, he is still considered a black man who has managed to gain such popularity and support that he is a contender for the Democratic Party's Presidential nomination. Also, last time I checked, the Jim Crow laws are no longer in effect, there are no laws restricting black people from voting, and affirmative action isn't exactly hurting black people. Both economically and socially, it is true that African Americans do occupy a large portion of the impoverished in America. However, with universities and colleges using affirmative action in their admissions decisions and businesses and jobs practically being forced to choose minority applicants over more qualified ones without minority status, it seems that the subjugation with which you speak of is more self imposed as it seems that many black people are being given equal opportunity with improved chances.

And let's assume that all black people did occupy solely the lowest socioeconomic rung of American society, then it only stands to further argue against your thesis. If black people were truly subjugated and tortured then the government would purely be run by WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants), who according to American history tend to control American government almost unchallenged. Now, once we have assumed that the black people are oppressed by the government and that the government is comprised of the highest socioeconomic rung of American society we can look at what would happened in theory if there were high rates of immigration, Hispanic or otherwise. Many people like to argue that immigrants come into the country and steal their jobs, but if this society is the way you insinuate then this would actually be true. The Hispanics would enter the country and begin receiving the jobs with the least amount of pay, for less than what the employer would have to provide to a black man. This is because the immigrants would be willing to work for whatever they could, and if the rich, white man was in control of government and cared little for the black man, then why wouldn't he allow immigrants to accept lower wages? Inevitably the black people of America would be out of their jobs and if they're truly oppressed or subjugated then they wouldn't have the social or economic ability they actually have in contemporary America. If they truly didn't have the ability to receive an education and a good job, then they would be subjugated.
Debate Round No. 1
MasterDZJ

Pro

First, let me begin by thanking you for accepting this debate and sharing your views which I believe are expressed by the majority of other Americans. However, I cannot say that the truth will ever be accepted or completely understood by the majority of any population whether Black, Brown, White, Red or Yellow. Now, in your opening paragraph you made two statements that I feel the need to respond to.
1. You stated, "...and you insinuate that the only people being treated like the blacks are fellow minorities, ignoring the fellow whites who are also destitute." I didn't fail to acknowledge that some whites are mistreated but as a population in general they cannot be subjugated by white supremacy because (just in case you didn't realize) they are the first word of the phrase "white supremacy"
2. In the last line of your first paragraph you stated you wanted evidence of the mistreatment of Blacks which I don't believe you really need but I will supply it anyway considering the fact that it should be easy since I can deal solely with the year 2007 (considering that 2007 is ancient history since we are now in 2008 ; ) )
a. The West Virginia torture case where six whites kidnapped a Black woman forcing her to undergo physical torture, drinking out of a toilet, eating her own feces, snatching her hair out, beating her continuously, and raping her.
b. A Chicago based police squad, called the skull cap boys are finally exposed and caught torturing Blacks and subjecting them to commit inhumane acts, such as forcing a young man in his mid 20's to physically beat his next door neighbor who just so happened to be a defenseless senior citizen WOMAN!
c. The numerous amounts of young Black males gunned down by police all over the nation with an overwhelming number of victims having no prior gang involvement but were alleged to have been carrying guns. (Its no conspiracy theory when a man as big and popular as Al Sharpton feels the need to fight against the Olympic bid of Mayor Daley until the misconduct ceases)
d. The countless instances of noose hanging and racial instigation, in a system that attempts to charge the retaliators and not the initiators.
e. The reality that Black males face year in and year out pertaining to the prison industrial complex. Blacks make up 13% of the population but 66% if the incarcerated population. The fact that more Black males between 18-25 go to prison than the ones who actually attempt to attend college.
f. The two instances of lynching that in South Carolina and Texas, although I am pretty sure there are more, but I am only dealing with the definitives in hopes to not go on a tangent thrash of sensationalism

Hopefully those details served your desire but also awakened you to the reality that Blacks in America face everyday.

Now as far as your second paragraph you used Barack Obama as a measure of how great Blacks must have it in America. You also used an idea which is common which is that Blacks have the right to vote and there are no laws restricting them. This brings me to my next point, which I hinted to in my opening statement. Blacks are not only physically subjugated but also mentally subjugated. There are two tools used in this system of oppression that I feel you need to be aware of. The first is that you cannot be deceived by a few token individuals who are only thrown to the forefront for the sole purpose of saying, "look how far we have come." It definately looks good on paper but the reality is Black people are in the very same predicament and they face the harsh reality everyday they wake up. Secondly, if you destroy a peoples mind or way of thinking you can control their very existence. Like the quote states in my profile, "He who gives the diameter of your knowledge prescribes the circumference of your activity." So in essence I am saying Black skin does not define a Black mind. Blacks as a nation are so lost mentally that they can be given the right to vote because it will only serve the interest of those who are deceiving them but will never result in the liberation of themselves.

Lastly we don't have to assume that Blacks are the lowest socioeconomic rung of society, like you stated, because to assume means to deal with the uncertainty. Every person with eyes to see and ears to hear knows that is a factual statement so there is no need to assume. Finally, to deal with the issue of immigrants stealing our jobs. Although it is definately a fact, I would prefer to use a different term, rather than stealing, but my logic is why fight over penny enny jobs when the alternative is much more beneficial and drastic. Blacks and Browns are from the same social background so why fight with someone who is also attempting to feed hungry mouths? Instead fight the person or people who have basic necessities in ample but out of greed refuse to help people who actually need it. Instead, it would be better to get ahead by creating a coalition great enough in size to actually have a real political influence which will be the result of Blacks and Browns unifying!
Mikel

Con

I apologize for having taken so long; I had some personal commitments and issues. Nonetheless, I appreciate the examples, now I am better able to see what you meant.

1.When you say that even the destitute whites in America cannot be subject to subjugation because they're white, I do see many issues with this. First off, in the wake of the Civil War, the WASPs leading the country used the Grandfather Clause and literacy tests for voting rights not only to subjugate blacks but also the poor. These WASPs are not merely all white people; the group historically in charge of government is primarily the rich. So I think you need to rethink who you don't lump into the category "Subjugated."
2.While I admit that black people do face adversity, I would like to remind you that those are mere examples of certain people and certain ill-favored groups, not the white population as a whole. I personally read that list and am disgusted, as I'm sure you are, but I don't think you have any right to look at these and then say that ALL white people are responsible indirectly.
3.I never said that blacks had it so great in America, I merely used Barack as an example that social advancement is not entirely impossible.
4.On another note, in the comments you claim that the white man has not done anything for the black man in 500 years to help him overcome his adversity. Might I remind you that the people back in the 60s fighting for the very civil rights that you now enjoy as a black man were both black and white. While you claim that there are a few breaks to your theory of white supremacy, I think you are personally stereotyping whites based on "a few bad seeds." I am white, and I would never commit atrocities of the like that you listed, as I am sure that most if not all the people on this site would never even think about doing something so horrific.
5.After the Civil War, immediately after, black people received rights and opportunities that they would not enjoy until only recently. In fact, during the post Civil War years there were two black senators. What I mean by this example is to show you that black people have the ability to rise to even the highest socioeconomic run of society. If there is any reason why they do not, I feel it wouldn't solely be the white man's fault. The very system of affirmative action allows high school students of minority status to score lower on the SAT and receive lower grades than a white student and be accepted over the white. I personally do not agree with that system, but the black people are being given a large helping hand by the educational systems, which are run by, believe it or not, some white people. Then when they actually leave college they can get a job easier than a white man, just because they're black.
6.You mention that there are mental tactics, and I know what you mean already by that. If the white man creates a black stereotype and projects in the media, there is no reason why the black man cannot rise above, yes it will be difficult, but it can and has been done. I have actually read, by a black author, in "Why are all the Black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?" that the reason why black students do not do well in school is because many of them choose to dumb themselves down to fit in with the other black kids who have conformed to the black stereotype. No offense, but the choice to dumb oneself down is not the fault of the white man, it is the fault of the black man as he chooses to fall in and conform and accepts the subjugation.
7.If black people were really only given the vote because it would further and supposedly still furthers the white man's interests, then why don't they rise above this form of subjugation, not that I wholly believe in, and demand more from their elected representatives?
8."Instead fight the person or people who have basic necessities in ample but out of greed refuse to help people who actually need it."

That makes me feel insulted and very aggravated. First off, you insinuate that all white people could care less about the black and brown people, completely ignoring the work of all those civil rights activists who happened to be white. Or even of the abolitionists who believed in racial equality and fought politically and literally in the war that earned black people freedom. On another note, you make it sound like whites are all enjoying the high life while the minorities are all at the bottom being denied basic necessities.
Debate Round No. 2
MasterDZJ

Pro

Ok, evidently I don't believe that I explained myself well enough in the last round because you still seem to spin my words to fit your agenda. So for one more time I will say it again in order to appease you and the several people who commented on our debate. All white people are not against Black people and all white people are not wealthy and have control over the lives of Blacks! With that being said I continue to feel that you are missing my point. Although there are some whites who are ok I am speaking in terms of a nation. For example, when the issue of abortion was a sensitive and very fragile current issue there was a loud, dramatic, emotional outcry on the behalf of many whites who felt that it should be outlawed! My question to you is, "Where is that outcry from whites when it comes to issues of racism, poverty, freedom, equality and justice?" It simply doesn't exist. There are no protests, picketers, marches, and frequent dialogue about those issues and that simply means that it isn't that important of an issue which makes the rest of white americans just as guilty as the blatant white supremacists. Let me ask you another question. If you see a crime taking place such as an old lady being mugged for her purse are you not just as guilty if you sit back and grab a bucket of popcorn instead of calling the police or doing something about it? Yes, you are just as guilty as the thief and I believe that is the issue that influences my ideas. We as a people are tired of being mistreated and people just stand by and watch from the comfortability of their homes. So as an answer to the problem of being sick and tired of being sick and tired I feel that we need population numbers great enough in size to either make an impact by taking it to the streets or by an overwhelming number of votes, and that takes me back to the real issue at hand. Blacks should be in favor of immigration both legal and allegedly illegal due to the fact that it provides a possible solution to issues of extreme importance through the power of numbers.

Last but not least notice that towards the end of my last paragraph I used the term allegedly illegal when referring to Hispanic immigration which brings me to my next point. Say for instance you own a supermarket and business isn't superb but its good. A mob then comes into your supermarket, picks a fight with you and throws you out of your own store. Due to the fact that you are outnumbered and outpowered you say nothing about it for a period of time. But come to find out a few years down the road those mobsters turned your supermarket into a billion dollar industry. Do you not feel the need to be compensated? Do you not feel the need to go to trial and file a lawsuit? Of course you do and any honest person would say the same. This is the very same predicament that Hispanics find themselves in right now in 21st century America. So Hispanics can just as much benefit from our help as we can from theirs, and to form a coalition is not only a great idea but it is a necessary idea that needs to be brought into fruition. If Blacks and Browns can unify and achieve that goal we can then work toward a better America hand in hand with our fellow whites because then we will all be on a level playing field! Thanks for taking the time to listen and respond to this discussion.
Mikel

Con

First off, there was such a loud outcry regarding abortion (and I'd argue that there still in some ways is) was because the issue was at the forefront of politics and media. During the Civil Rights Movement the issue of race and racism, especially towards the African-American community was at the forefront of both politics and media. Therefore there was a loud outcry from many people, including white people just like the ones who cried against abortion. In today's America there are many people who don't think racism is alive and well, which I personally think it is as do many of my peers I assure you. Yet I can't remember hearing about any acts of deliberate and unimaginable cruelty being perpetrated based on race on the news or even in school. In fact, I have only heard about such things through chain e-mails on very rare occasions. Those same white people who you said were crying out against abortion would more than likely be crying out against white supremacy if the issue was presented as often as let's say abortion, the war in Iraq, or even healthcare.

I would like to say that I resent the parallel you draw between a bystander watching a thievery and white people. My biggest issue is that you insinuate that white people know what's going on and choose apathy, however of your six examples of white supremacy and black subjugation I have heard of only one of them and the discussion of it was very brief. Now, if I happened to see white aggression in my city and walk away saying, "Not my problem," then yes I would be guilty, but this is not the case. Regardless of our many mediums of media, there are very few reports of blatant racism that I have seen, read, or even heard about. If I do not know that there is a problem then it is not apathy, it is being misinformed.

Now I understand that you think that by bringing more Hispanics into the population will help the black man's struggles, but I think that it may do opposite. Especially when it comes to illegal immigration, there are many modern day Nativists amongst ourselves who would be livid if there was a group of people advocating all forms of immigration, legal or otherwise. Assuming that the black man is as subjugated as you claim, which I am not saying he is not, then it would be a detriment to his cause for him to advocate Hispanics to immigrate to America as this would only anger his opponents, the aforementioned Nativist WASPs. The cause would be seen as aggressive and racist as they would see it as an almost black supremacist like movement. If met with severe legislative opposition, or political subjugation, the black man could only hurt his cause by giving his oppressors incentive and motive to further their own cause, keeping him down at the bottom of society with the newly subjugated Hispanic immigrants. To surmise: What you are proposing would be considered almost revolutionary and the course of history shows that government, yes even ours, doesn't like revolutions when they don't benefit them.

The answer to being on an equal playing field with fellow whites is not by endorsing immigration and a political movement based on race. If the issue of racism and of the continued subjugation were to be brought back to the public eye then I can almost guarantee there would be a serious group of people who would emerge to fight it. And I can almost guarantee that there would be representatives of all colors, creeds, and heritages. While I am not saying that that is the best course of action, I am saying that there are alternatives to your original plan if your description of America were truly accurate. I may not believe everything you say to be true; however I am not denying the fact that we're not perfect as a country.
Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Couldn't fit.
Just a few examples, you are blaming white people on whole for not doing anything , not protesting. I know many black people who don't think racism is that bad anymore, are they guilty of not stopping it too? What about affirmative action , that in no way helps white people, actually it hurts, yet it was created and put into effect by those My own husband has had 7 people pass him on the police list although he is in the military and had a higher score because a group of minorities (black and latino) sued and won because they claim the test was harder for them to pass than for a white person to pass. I'd love to know how a person's skin color affects them taking a test.My husband group up in the projects of Scotland with a different English than the English used in this country , with no HS diploma , he got his GED here in the army. Yet he passed with a 98 % ... so how does a person not pass based on skin color. So I am not sure what you mean when you state that the Gov't is white supremacist and only helps white people.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
I have told you what you have said that is racist , so many of your comments are racist. You actually blame white people for all of the problems a black person may have.
Here some examples:
"Blacks will better themselves when they look past the bull crap and see that both Republicans and Democrats are under that same ribbon of White Supremacy and that neither title can nor will assist them in their true liberation"
"Have Whites as a nation failed Blacks? Yes! " (Generalizes and put whites into one category, blaming all white people for any wrong doing to black people)
"You guys have had 500 years to come forward and lend a helping hand but you have continuously failed over and over again."
"The question really is what happened from the time whites took us from the shores of Africa all the way to the current day that makes some Blacks say whites are to blame for their current situation." (Again the White people who took slaves not you as I am assuming you were not alive , nor was I so again you are blaming a group of people that have died for something done to a group of people who have died. )
"Whites use 3 times larger a variety of drugs but for some reason they are not being caught or simply not being charged." (Again you are generalizing, there are many whites that are sent to jail for drugs)
Posted by MasterDZJ 9 years ago
MasterDZJ
No Kels, you are simply indenial of your history. There is nothing I stated that was based on emotion. Every last historical fact that I used was not out of my mouth but out of some of the greatest historians both White and Black. I don't know how many times I can say this or how many different ways I can put it but for the thirtieth and last time I am not blaming all white people. I am simply pointing out a historical event and giving what I believe is the best resolution for Black improvement. If you feel you are an exception to the title then I applaud you as long as it is true, but if you don't speak out about the injustices or do anything about them then you are guilty whether you like it or not. You don't necessarily have to agree with how someone arrives at their conclusion but you can agree with the conclusion. If you don't feel that Blacks need to achieve self-reliance, independence, and mental and spiritual liberation then fine go be a racist. But if you agree then why are you arguing about the route instead lets discuss ways to bring about the solution. Your entire comments have been based on nothing but emotion and name calling with no basis of belief, no statistics, no facts, and no evidence. Please, if I am racist let me know what I said that makes me that way, other than stating history!
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Masterd , You seriously have issues as far as racism. You come across as a racist in everything you say , yet you are blaming a whole group of people based on them being white. You are right , I do not feel any responsibility for racism. I am not racist , so why should I take responsibility. I didn't take any people from the shores of Africa, In fact neither did my ancestors as the Irish ones were to busy being persecuted by the English and then coming here and being treated worse than dogs and Black people for that matter. However I certainly am not blaming anyone for what my grandparents once went through. In fact they never blamed anyone either. If you let go of the hatred and the blaming game you will see that anyone can make something of themselves regardless of color. I think all people that commit a crime should be in prison. Funny I know alot of white people that have been in jail due to drugs. I myself have never been in prison , because I do not break laws. If you do not want to be in prison , don't break the law. End of story. I feel no sympathy for anyone who breaks a law and ends up in jail regardless of color. I am sick of your comments about how white people persecute the Black man , white people are responsible because white people took them from the shores of Africa. If you can find a slave that is alive and you can find a white man who took part in slavery and took the Blacks from Africa, I am with you , hold the white person responsible , blame them. However to blame people today because they are white , because of what some white guys (rich and no relation to many white people today) is so racist and biased. You need to take a hard look at yourself and your racist views. You can say what you want , but you are just as racist against whites as the so called white racists you talk about. You lump all white people into one category.
Posted by MasterDZJ 9 years ago
MasterDZJ
Kels, in response to your comment about the prison industrial complex I need you to look at the numbers for a sec. Blacks make up 13% of the entire population of the United States according to your census reports. Now, Blacks also make up 66% of the prison population like you already know. Out of that 66% 80% are there for not violent crimes, such as getting charged with selling or using drugs. So if 80% of the Black prison population are in prison solely for either the use of drugs or selling of drugs then where is the white population who should be in prison. Whites use 3 times larger a variety of drugs but for some reason they are not being caught or simply not being charged. So my logic is no one should be charged with drug charges until everyone is treated equally. When they police white communities for drugs just as hard as Black communities then we can talk. When whites are shipped off to jail with more accurate numbers then its fair but at that point Blacks wont make up 66% because once whites are sought just as hard 66% will probably turn into 25%
Posted by MasterDZJ 9 years ago
MasterDZJ
Yes we know Capt. herp! All white people are so innocent and you guys can do nothing wrong. Every issue that non-whites have is solely their fault and if they would only pull themselves by their boot straps then they can change their situation for the better. Come on man, give me a break. If you think for one sec that a group of people from the richest continent on earth just somehow became lazy and complacent and their economic status is their fault you are crazy. The question really is what happened from the time whites took us from the shores of Africa all the way to the current day that makes some Blacks say whites are to blame for their current situation. And if you read my argument a little closer then I believe you would understand that my comments about whites with power comes out of a stance of stating history not to simply point the finger. My solution is for Blacks to forget about seeking help from whites and depend on themselves. However if any other race, such as the Hispanics, would like to form a coalition then I believe it is in the best interest for us to unify so we both can improve ourselves. As in response to your example of Asian immigrants I think you know the real issue at hand. Asians come from homelands such as China, Korea, Japan and etc which have good economies. Americans and Europeans will always befriend you as long as they need you, but you when have nothing to offer them because they already raped everything from your soil then we get the reality for Blacks and Browns.
Posted by Capt.Herp 9 years ago
Capt.Herp
While it seems that whites are always told that the only ones capable of racism are whites, I think you should think about something here. Let's take Asian immigrants as a good example:

We have case after case of Asians coming to the US who end up doing well in school and starting businesses. How can this be, if Whitey keeps oppressing people who aren't white?

Did it ever occur to you, MasterD, that Asians aren't "represented" by "Asian leaders" who constantly tell them from birth to grave that Whitey is keeping them down, as "Black leaders" like Sharpton and Jackson do to blacks? With an attitude like that, blacks have a much easier time believing that there isn't a thing they can do to end their "oppression," and therefore -- "what's the use of trying to get ahead?"

You want to blame someone -- I'd start at those "Black leaders," rather than blaming ol' Whitey, who is so terrified of being called a racist these days that whites would do almost ANYTHING to avoid that label, which is why the race card is constantly pulled out of the hat. You want to get ahead? Dump Jackson, Sharpton, and the rest of those "leaders" and represent yourselves.
Posted by JackBauerPower 9 years ago
JackBauerPower
Black people should support whatever they personally feel like supporting because in the end, they are still people; with different concerns and preferences, just like any other person of any other race. Just like it is unfair to generalize and entire people group (in this case as being criminal) it is unfair to generalize what they should (or should not) believe in.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Also you state in your argument that black make up 66% of the population of prisons, okay explain to em how that is the fault of white people in any way? If a person commits a crime whether they are white or black , it is there own fault that they are in prison. There may be some people that go to prison for a crime they don't commit. But the majority of people in the prison system no matter what the color of their skin is did the crime , you do the crime , you pay the price.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
masterd , keep on believing what you are saying is not racist, you are blaming white people as a whole for white supremacy. If you seriously believe that then you are a racist , yet you are claiming you are not.
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