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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/24/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,411 times Debate No: 5524
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (3)




I know not too much about this topic... but I will try to get my point across...
Heres a possible effect that closing boarders might have.
We close the borders and keep more and more people out. Due to the lack of immagrent workers, farmers start having to pay more money, for generally less work. Due to the higher expense of labor, food prices increase, further affecting and weakening our countries economy.
Also, have you read the article on the one town that is split between Mexico and US? If we close off the boarders... Then that town, and probably many others, will be killed.... do we want that at this point???


To counter your arguments:
I am not in the USA, but because you appear to be, I shall assume you are referring to the US land borders.

1) The borders with both Canada and Mexico are NOT open to free movement at the moment.
I've been across both of them, they have toll-booth-like arrangements.
Foreigners must have both a passport and visa even for a temporary visit, and so are breaking the law if they enter without them.

2) Farmers are only likely to have to pay more money for labour if they are paying less than the legal minimum wage.
If they were - then they were breaking the law. Can't have that!

3) If food prices rise - in many ways this is actually a good thing!
Think about it.
a) The legal labourers will be better off - you wouldn't want them working themselves to death now would you?
b) People will value their food more - this will help them realise the true value of food and not waste it!
c) More of the USA's money will be spend within the country rather than on overseas goods - this will help counter the current huge trade imbalance the USA is suffering.

4) I haven't heard about the split town. However, nobody is likely to die if the border there is enforced.
If more than one town is on the border, perhaps it could be arranged with Mexico to have one in the US and the other in Mexico. No town need be harmed ;-)

Why borders are a good idea:
The reason countries have borders is because they are afraid that people from other countries may come in and do bad things.

What if terrorists decide that because they look like Mexicans that that will be an easy way to get into the USA and blow people up?
They could buy huge trucks full of explosives.
They might try to see if they could make skyscrapers fall down like dominos.
A big-rig parked next to the base of a big building downtown might be able to do that.
Unfortunately there are people who do this sort of thing.

Another problem with letting people cross the border is that they are not staying at home to make thing better there.
Fit young people leave and while they often do send money home, that is not improving the infrastructure back home.

Another problem is that if people have diseases, and they just enter your country anyway, your people could die.

Another problem is that people could escape the law. They could rob you then quickly rush across the border.
Your police couldn't follow them because their army would say "No!".
All the towns near the border could be robbed - people who own guns might start shooting, there could be a war!

These are just some the sorts of reasons that nearly every country in the World with neighbours has borders.
Debate Round No. 1


To respond to your argument , I will number my points also in regard to the arrangement which you have already stated .
1. In between the two cities that I mentioned , there's a lake that offers easy ferry rides between the two cities . Although even when I read it I was confused as to how free movement between the countries was accomplished . But moving past this confusion I state that this city does exist , as I had to study it in a recent school project . The sources from which I retained this information are valuable and reliable sources.
2.Although I'm not sure what prices the laborers or paid , I'm betting that the minimum wage requirement applies exclusively to American citizens , and that to pay any illegal immigrant to do this work is not a violation of the law .
3. You say that rising food prices are a good thing, and that with rising food prices we will waste less food . But what of the homeless people in our nation , the ones who waste little food and have little food . Is it good to make things harder for those who wish to survive with little ? Although I am not impoverished in any way , I cannot say that my family has extensive amounts of money . And although we do not suffer greatly from the rising prices of food , the prices to burden our wallets greatly . Is it not enough to have gas prices high as they are ? Pretty soon more and more people will rely on welfare. That will raise our country's debt to even higher than it already is . Do we want that to happen ?
A.I know I do not want laborers to work to death , but for illegal immigrants , who desperately need work , for either family back home or for funds required to become citizens of the United States, high paying and low labor jobs are nearly impossible to find.
C. You seem to have forgotten that most of our food does not come from overseas . Such shipping of items that are perishable would be unrealistic and very hard to accomplish . I remind you that most of our debt to overseas countries , as and China, Taiwan , and India are for or goods such as clothes, knickknack, and pretty much all things that we find in stores here in America , other than food. So I guess that rising food prices will not benefit this country in any way .
4. I did not say that the townspeople will die , although I may have by accident stated it that way haha..... I meant that the town's welfare will surely suffer . Jobs will be lost , goods will be no longer available and surely many friends will be separated . And although those friends may see each other again , they will not be able to share each others company as frequently as they had before. And that's sad.

Why there should NOT be increased borders...

You say that if we do not increase borders that terrorists will come in and blow us up. I ask you , have you seen this happen today? This month? This year? This debate was meant to be about the increasing of borders, not the eradication there of. If terrorists are not doing these things now, what makes you think that they will do this unless we increased the borders ?

Many countries are having huge problems and its people need to escape. So a benefit of having borders to make the people help their country is not really a great approach. though I see what your getting at...

Once again, for your last argument, I comment that I am speaking of not increasing borders not eliminating them.

Well boy y'all just got schooled by a 14 year old... haha jk... I think you might have an edge....
And if there are any mistakes I apoligize, I am using a mic because I am very sick and My hands are shaking too much to type... too da loo... can't wait for your next points!


I'm very sorry to hear you're sick.
I hope you get better soon, a good sign you're in such good spirits.
Sorry we have to be at odds like this, but this is the nature of debate.

1) My first point reduces to: the borders aren't open, so anyone going crossing them without passport and approved visa is breaking the law. So, do we uphold the law or don't we?

2) The law will assume only legal workers - unless I'm very much mistaken.
So, effectively: "all workers must be paid at least: $X/hour."

3) If minimum wages must be paid, then why would a farmer not employ legal American workers?
This will mean fewer homeless people.
If there are no jobs for illegal workers... will the bother to risk jail crossing the border when they know it's illegal?
You may not know this, but gas prices are much cheaper in the USA than the rest of the first world. Here in NZ 50% of the price of petrol is tax. I believe petrol (gasoline) is actually subsidised (made cheaper) in the USA.
If lots of people who work on farms are paid more, they will in turn have more money to buy other goods and services - this is good for the rest of the economy.
If this happens, surely fewer and fewer people will be on welfare.
Because more money is being spent on food within the country, less money will be spent on goods outside the country, this will reduces debt.

a) Mexico has a rapidly growing population. This is unsustainable. This is not the USA's fault. They really should do something about this, but it is not our place to say.
b) (You don't say anything)
c) Oh, we've already covered this. Yes I know the US grows most her own food. I meant less money is available for overseas goods (e.g. bits of Chinese plastic) so the US will become less indebted. This is good.

4) The town will probably get quite a bit of attention (at least for a while) while increased border security is put in place. Cross-border trading will still happen thanks to NAFTA. I don't think any jobs will be lost.
Friends will find a way. They can get visas or they can emmigrate. It's very easy for Americans to visit Mexico.

5) Terrorist could blow you up, yes. No it hasn't happend recently, but you do remember what happend on the 11th of September 2001 in New York City don't you? People got very upset by that.
If the baddies can't get across the border, how do they do nasty things like that?

6) In South Africa, they had open borders for many years. Lots of people from poor countries came to their country.
At first, the people there liked having lots of cheap workers, it made them rich!
However, the cheap workers decided that they would rule the country - and now, they do.

All the best, Derek
Debate Round No. 2


Im just too dang lazy to write responses to all that, so I will argue to a few and make some new points.... Thank you for the well wishes to... and I don't care if we are debating... haha its what I do... and I love it...
To one of the parts I noted in your arguement that you said that if farmers did not have immagrent workers, than the rate of homeless people would go down because of the fact that more people would have jobs. So now I reference a News show that went on the streets and offered 20 dollars to about ten homeless people to mow a lawn. One showed up. So many homeless people make more on the streets than they would even at minumum wage. They are gennerally just lazy. So I do not think that that would help the homeless situation. And that is a top thing that many people, my grandpa for one, complain about, that immagrents take work from hard working Americans, when in genneral, Americans are too dang lazy to work that hard for that little amount of money. And I am exausted so that is my argument.


You say only 1 in 10 homeless people are willing to mow a (presumably small) lawn for 20 dollars.
That could mean 10% of the homeless get jobs. This is a good thing.

I don't think homeless people are all lazy. Many can't read, many have mental illnesses.

In most other parts of the economy, the law of supply and demand applies.
If nobody is willing to work for a particular wage, then the price (wage) must go up.
What is on offer increases until people think "Dang! There's good money to be made out there!".

Farming is important work - no food, no people. Somehow we seem to have forgotten this.
It would be a good thing for primary producers to get more recognition for their efforts.

In a nutshell, borders allow a country to maintain their policies and protect their people from foreign interests.
Borders are good and should be maintained.

Thanks for the debate.
Get well soon.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by magpie 7 years ago
I braved almost intolerable pain to vote for Derek -BUT I DID IT! Good job, Derek
Posted by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
Thanks for that Bthr... it's a bit like reading about the financial turmoil.
Amazing to think that beef supply could be so low. Clearly there is a lot of interaction within primary production (a fancy way of saying "farming"!)

Posted by bthr004 8 years ago
Increase in corn prices have alot to do with ethanol,.. but mostly foreign demand. China is huge. Soybean prices are high as well, dont get me wrong, but from a production standpoint, better profit margins are in corn planting.

The corn and soybean farmers are currently doing well,... most commodities are doing pretty well in terms of commodity prices and market demand,.. but fertilizer, fuel, etc prices are at an all time high, yet money is still to be had for the crops. Good money. Livestock producers, well,.. they are hurting because of feed and fuel costs. Not much money in raising livestock right now. We will see a shortage in meat as final liquidation of herd numbers through out the winter months occur. Lowest overall beef supply since the 1950s. Pork producers require more protien in the finish diets, a common "cheap" feed is soy meal,.. a by product of soy ethanol. It is high in protien and cheaper alternative than feeding higher levels of corn,... however, this price has gone obviously as well and the cost for one pound of weight gain has gone up way over the price of pork per pound,... they are below the break even point,.. Producers that have hog feeding facilities payed off of debt, will choose not to feed hogs this year due to high production cost eating potential profits.
Posted by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
I didn't realise there had been such a swing in production.
Is the move to corn entirely due to ethanol production, or are there other reasons for the demand?
The Chinese are very keen on both pork and soy - I'm surprised they aren't doing well.

Here in NZ many farms have converted from sheep to dairy - milk prices are very high.
The dairy farmers got together and formed a country-wide cooperative - and they've done very well out of it. The meat producers were on the verge of doing the same thing last week when financial things in the US caused it to fall over for some reason. However, I can only think that they will sort themselves out and do it.

It'll be expensive for us consumers, but we're paying more for our food anyway - going more and more organic and free-range etc like the Europeans. Any of that in the USA?
The end result must surely be better-off farmers and that's got to be good for any country.
Posted by bthr004 8 years ago
Do you mean from the private sector?

Several "cooperatives" have been formed,.. or farmer owned businesses. This does nothing to control inputs of course, but does offer a little more control in the retail sector.

What it comes down to is basic supply and demand,.. several retailers really don't sell cheaper because they have the choice in a competive market, but because they have the ability due to consistent supply in an otherwise volatile commodity supply chain.

The problem is pretty diverse. Corn and soybean producers are seeing incredible record high prices for the crop, followed behind record high inputs; fuel, seed, fertilizer, etc. The most profitable crop to grow is corn. So naturally the farmer will plant corn. The problem with this is, they arent planting cotton, soy, wheat, ect. With the high corn prices, livestock producers are just simply NOT going to raise pork and beef. They can not make money currently raising beef or pork. Does NOT matter if you raise 20 or 20,000,... it costs the same to produce one as it does one hundered. In a competitive free market, the packer will select based on supply and demand.

Soooo,... currently, we are facing this,... No soybean, beef, pork,. Soy + Beef+ Pork = worlds most readily available sources of protein. Also, dairy, poultry.

Wheat, cotton, and other products are taking a huge hit due to competing crop ground.

Basically, we are running out of food. At least for the short term.
Posted by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
Has there ever been a move in the US for farmers to form an association to avoid the withering effects of prices being continually driven down by those willing to sell cheaply?
Posted by bthr004 8 years ago
Do people think farmers put price tags on the crops and livestock they raise? Farmers sell their product based on market bids which is controlled by demand. Food costs going up has NOTHING to do with higher input costs on the farmers side,... Good farmers understand its not how much you make its how much you dont lose that makes money.
Posted by Rezzealaux 8 years ago
I like Borders.
They're better than Barnes N Noble.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
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