The Instigator
Stupidape
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
TheRealBatman
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Both Christanity and Islam encourage excessive cruelty to animals.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
TheRealBatman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 441 times Debate No: 94741
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (1)

 

Stupidape

Pro

More and more I am seeing little use for either of these religions in modern day. Perhaps in a past era these ideas were necessary to survive. Yet, with no evidence of God I am beginning to question a religion who claims a supreme being created these morals, yet is very cruel to animals.

I think it is well known about the Christian capitalistic factory farms. The old testament Kosher slaughtering of animals. That Christians can morally use animals for food, clothing, and experimentation.

Yet, what about the newcomer to the western world? Is Islam any better? No, in many ways Islam is just as bad if not worse.

I. Ritual slaughter


"Muslims are only allowed to eat meat that has been killed according to Sharia law. This method of killing is often attacked by animal rights activists as barbaric blood-thirsty ritual slaughter." [0]


II. Animal sacrifices

That's right, I think this would be hard for a western to swallow, Muslims perform animal sacrifices.

"This year, Eid al-Adha will occur around November 16 (the precise date will be determined by lunar observations). At Eid, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of sheep and goats will be sacrificed to celebrate the end of the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, making the timing of the article particularly significant." [1]


III. Discrimination against dogs.


"Muslim countries, in particular, are rife with unimaginable cruelty toward animals. Walid Shoebat has been chronicling horrific cases of Muslim animal abuse. Below are two recent examples:

#1: In Iran, government gets rid of stray dogs by injecting them with acid. Acid is chosen because it is the least expensive poison, but the method is cruel because it consigns the dog to a painful and slow death, as the acid slowly corrodes the dog’s guts." [2]


This is heart breaking for anyone who loves animals. I find it disturbing that these two religions have so many followers in this modern world. Thanks for reading.


0. http://www.bbc.co.uk...
1. http://www.animalliberationfront.com...
2. https://fellowshipoftheminds.com...
TheRealBatman

Con

Though I am extremely anti - Islam (due to the fact they encourage violence to all non believers rather than just non - innocent people), I can't find evidence relating to how they are cruel to animals. There are an excessive amount of quotes from the Quran that disprove curelty towards animals, for example:

"He who takes pity even on a sparrow and spares its life, God will be merciful to him on the Day of Judgement."

" The Qur"an

"A good deed done to an animal is as meritorious as a good deed done to a human being, while an act of cruelty to an animal is as bad as an act of cruelty to a human being."

" The Prophet Muhammad: Hadith

Same thing for Christianity, I cant find any quotes telling you to kill animals with no religious purpose. So for both religions (Keep in mind im anti islam), the mindless cruelty towards animals is not justified by either holy book.
However, if you it is taken into context about killing an animal just for a sacrifice, I get where you're coming from.
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Pro

One problem with religions is that on many topics, including this topic, is the contradictory nature of religious texts. You can make point A and then complete opposite from a different passage in the same religious texts. Which then leads to confirmation bias. A reader will then pick which side of the topic to follow based upon his/her person agenda and bias.

Therefore, we must judge how a religion treats animals based upon the actions of its followers. As already seen in r1, Christians an Muslims tend to treat animals horribly. Note this same train of thought could be made for violence.

That religion x states in part A of its religious texts peace and part B war. That means a person following the religion will pick whatever benefits him/her the most.

Finally, to really determine how a religion treats animals, we must compare the actions of followers of various religions. That way we can see how they stack up. Overall, Christianity and Islam treat animals much worse than Hinduism and Buddhism. Also, note many animal rights activist gravitate towards atheism, Hinduism and Buddhism. Which also shows that these religions have more respect for animals.

Thanks for debating.
TheRealBatman

Con

I fully know what you are trying to say, that to this day, christians and muslims are putting animal sacrifices into practice though it has been abolished for centuries. This may be the case for Islam, but what about Christianity? In your example, you didn't give any direct quotes from the bible, or any real life cases about the topic related to Christianity. The bible doesn't encourage EXCESSIVE cruelty to animals, it says to end them quickly. And animal sacrifices for Christianity have been long put out of practice, by the bible itself. And your comment on looking at the actions of people rather than the belief. Since in the title you are criticizing the ideology (christian / Islam) rather than the people (christian / muslim), the statement made about looking at the people's actions is irrelevant, considering this is a conversation about an ideology, rather than the people. By the looks of what your statement said, a more fitting title would be 'Muslims encourage excessive cruelty towards animals'.
Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Pro

"or any real life cases about the topic related to Christianity."


I've talked about factory farming in r1. It is well known that Christianity is around 70% in the USA and factory farming is rampant the USA. [3]

99% of animals are raised on factory farms in the USA. [4] The majority of USA citizens are Christian. 99% of animals raised in the USA are from factory farms. Factory farming is infamous for its terrible cruelty. Therefore there is a strong positive relationship between Christianity and factory farming. I can only come to the conclusion that Christianity causes animal cruelty.

As for other religions, this may also be true, but is a red herring. If religion x causes cruelty to animals, this won't change the fact that Christianity causes cruelty to animals.

As for judging a religion by its religious texts, I've already gone over this in this debate any many others. Religious texts have many contradictory passages. Since people are self motivated they often select the passage that benefits them the most, using conformation bias to ignore the contradictory passage.


"Gee, God says animals don't have souls, gave us souls, gave us dominion over animals, Jesus ate fish, and Jesus said it was moral to eat meat." Completely overlooking the anti-cruelty passages. If I had to point to one event that turned me from a Christian to an agnostic it is this.


Nevermind that the body is a temple of the holy spirit. That if you defile your body God will destroy you. Oh no, Jesus ate one fish so then we can rationalize every single misdeed we perform to animals based upon this.

I just found it was impossible to convince Christians to turn vegetarian. I honestly lost my faith arguing vegan issues with Christians on this debate site. I couldn't help but see my opponent's as heartless, ruthless, merciless, self interested, ignorant, self destructive, and just plain old evil. Thanks for debating.

Sources
3. http://www.answers.com...
4. http://www.aspca.org...
TheRealBatman

Con

What you're arguing about is completely off what the title suggests
'Both Christianity and Islam encourage excessive cruelty to animals' means that the ideology that the person follows encourages the follower to torture animals, and be excessively cruel towards them. Thus far, all you've proven is how many farms are owned by Christians / Muslims, and statistics shown about how much meat is consumed by people who follow Christianity / Islam. You haven't proven how each ideology promotes excessive amounts of cruelty to animals, you've only shown how much meat is eaten and how many farms are owned by people who follow each religion. There has been no evidence about the Bible or the Quran, no criticism of the ideology, and nothing about excessive cruelty. You've only criticized the people, of the religion and not the religion itself. Needless to say, your statements have only been promoting veganism, and only proves about the excessive amount of meat eaten, which is an entirely different topic from this, and not a single word about how each religion promotes animal cruelty.

Christians work in factories + Factories are cruel to animals = Christianity promotes cruelty. This is your logic and reasoning behind it as far as I can tell, which only adresses the people, but not the ideology.

You also mentioned how the factory farming industry is cruel. Yet, this doesn't equate at all to how Christianity or Islam promotes excessive cruelty towards animals, and have strayed completely off topic. You said that referring to the text for each religion would result in bias. That means that you haven't argued the topic AT ALL. For the part about turning Christians into vegetarians / vegans, you're doing nothing more than forcing your own ideals onto other people, which obviously doesn't work, and losing your faith over such a thing. Like how people complain about Christians shoving Christianity down their throats, you have been doing the same with veganism. In summary, throughout this entire debate, you haven't argued the point at all. I would be willing to continue this, but if we are going to, please change the title to something more appropriate and fitting for what you've argued thus far.

Thanks for debating.
Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Stupidape 9 months ago
Stupidape
"Stating that most factory farms are own by Christians is not causal to animal cruelty since Christianity is the prominent faith of the country."

I have to admit proving causality is a very hard feat. There could be any number of confounding factors and reverse causality. Nevertheless, we can't perform an experiment where we force people to change religions, that would be immoral.

Therefore, due to reverse causality and confounding factors it is impossible to determine whether or not Christianity causes animal cruelty or if animal cruelty causes Christianity. Same with meat, it is impossible to determine whether or not meat eating causes Christianity or if Christianity causes meat eating.

If my opponent would have stated the above, I would have accepted defeat. Yet, my opponent didn't thus Peepette is being overactive as a voter.
Posted by Peepette 9 months ago
Peepette
If you made a significant link between religious text and animal cruelty the debate would have turned out differently. Stating that most factory farms are own by Christians is not causal to animal cruelty since Christianity is the prominent faith of the country. It's akin to saying all Somali goat herders are cruel; there are only Somali's in Somalia.
Posted by Stupidape 9 months ago
Stupidape
Btw, my opponent hasn't swayed me. I contend that my argument was on topic. I ask how else are you supposed to know what a religion teaches? By the religious texts is the answer I always get. I think my way of understanding a religion is more accurate.

Think about it, if you want to connect two points, lets say CO2 and global temperatures. Do you consult religious texts? No, instead you find empirical evidence to back up your point. The same goes for health, if you want to connect cigarettes with lung cancer, you bring in a bunch of smokers and non-smokers interview them and take tissue samples.

Same for crime, you try to find correlations between demographics, guns, and crimes. So, how is religion any different? You sample the populations and ask how much meat they eat and so forth.

You look at the crimes per religion, cigarette smoking per religion and so forth. I fail to understand why you insist on understanding religion solely via religious texts.

Sure, the religion can have a passage that states "we are totally awesome and peaceful." Yet, if the actions of the followers are abnormally violent and warlike, you know you are missing something.

I content for finding facts about religion that the scientific method is the best answer. We can measure the amount of violent crimes, eating habits, and so forth. My opponent insists on using religious texts while ignoring empirical evidence.

Think about this, if a new "religion" expected you to trust them based purely on their texts, would you trust them? Probably not. So, why trust that Christianity and Islam are anti-animal suffering based solely on the religious texts? Thanks for reading.

Btw, I had the same evasive answer by a different opponent in other debates.

" To claim that actions speak for itself, negates the premise of the debate that it is their religious belief system is what encourages animal abuse."

I completely disagree.
Posted by Peepette 9 months ago
Peepette
RFD: PRO contends that Christians with their factory farms along with Jews and Muslims with their slaughtering rites are cruel to animals. He cites the annual Eid al-Adha and disposition of stray dogs in Iran as examples. CON point out that the Quran and Hadith specifically prohibits cruelty to animals and the bible does not condone non-sacrificial cruelty. PRO defends his stance that religious text is contradictory, people select advantageously toward the bias and actions of these religious groups speak for themselves. CON rebuts that animal sacrificial practices has ceased to exist in Christianity. There are no Biblical quotes that condone excessive cruelty to animals. To claim that actions speak for itself, negates the premise of the debate that it is their religious belief system is what encourages animal abuse. PRO rebuts that factory farms are predominantly owned by Christians which are known for their animal cruelty. This results in Christianity equaling cruelty and PRO again reaffirms that biblical writings are cheery picked to suit justification for this. CON again points that PRO has not proven that religious ideology is causal to animal cruelty just merely stated that it"s contradictory and bias without providing actual proof of such. Debate to CON, with point that PRO did not meet the BoP based on the title of the debate. PRO failed to prove that religious dogma is contributory to animal cruelty.
Posted by Megatronimus_prime 9 months ago
Megatronimus_prime
I'm Christian and that is not at all what we believe in. I don't know what you have agents Christian's but that is a vary arrogant and frankly stupid thing to say. the Christian religion is agents the acts you described below and praying to God for forgiveness is meant as a last resort. If you do acts like that over and over again it defeats the purpose of praying to God and it won't work. Any true Christian knows this. However you allowed to believe and think whatever you want. Have a nice day and enjoy your debate.
Posted by Stupidape 9 months ago
Stupidape
"Christian people follow this religion because they believe in God and Jesus not because they want to harm animals. " Megatroniums-prime

I disagree, I think people follow Christianity because they want carte blanche. Jesus died for my sins, so therefore I can be a gluttonous, sloth, arrogant, lustful, envious, greedy, and wrathful person. I go to heaven no matter how much I use curse words and perform vile deeds.

All that matters is that I pray to God from time to time and stop in at church a few times. Christianity is about giving carte blanche and absolute freedom.
Posted by Megatronimus_prime 9 months ago
Megatronimus_prime
Is this a opinion of yours or a fact. Just because farms factory's and Christianity are in the same part of the world dose not mean that that the religion is based off of it. There are many meat facilities were around the world were Christianity is not the abundant religion. I'm a Christian and I know other Christian people who are vegetarians. Christian people follow this religion because they believe in God and Jesus not because they want to harm animals. I know people who own a farm that treat chickens horribly before they are killed and sent to a factory, but these people are just following the government regulations. Also these people happen to be athletes. However you are allowed to believe whatever you want.
Posted by Megatronimus_prime 9 months ago
Megatronimus_prime
Is this a opinion of yours or a fact. Just because farms factorys and Christianity are in the same part of the world dose not mean that that the religion is based off of it. There are many meat facilities were around the world were Christianity is not the abundant religion. I'm a Cristian and I know other Cristian people who are vegetarians. Cristian people follow this religion because they believe in God and Jesus not because they want to harm animals. I know people who own a farm that treat chickens horribly before they are killed and sent to a factory, but these people are just following the government regulations. Also these people happen to be athletes. However you are allowed to believe whatever you want.
Posted by Stupidape 9 months ago
Stupidape
"Killing animals for food is needed for survival. Many non religious people abuse animals. It is very uneducated to say that certain religions encourages animal suffering when many people outside of these 2 religions Acceps it. There was a time that animals ate humans just as much as humans ate animals, however because we advanced the threat of a animal attack is less of a issue. While people from Many religions May Accept animal suffering that dose not mean the entire religion is built up on this idea."

The best way to judge a religion the actions of its followers in my opinion. Christianity and factory farming are rampant in the western world. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that Christianity encourages excessive cruelty against animals.
Posted by Stupidape 9 months ago
Stupidape
""Plenty of Christians are just fine with vaccines."

Uhm..anyone who's not an idiot is fine with vaccines."

I'm an idiot then.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Peepette 9 months ago
Peepette
StupidapeTheRealBatmanTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in Comments