The Instigator
Jakeross6
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
DanielDate
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Both baptists and Catholics are going to heaven.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Jakeross6
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/4/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 592 times Debate No: 38497
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (2)

 

Jakeross6

Pro

I will be arguing that not only do both ends of the spectrum go to heaven, but both can work together to further Christianity. While I may be an Atheist now, I was once a devout Reformed Southern Baptist Christian and I know the ins and outs of Christianity. My disbelief in God now does not affect my knowledge or opinion of the details of Christian theology.

I challenge you to this debate because of a comment in which you said "Both the instigator and the Contender are going to burn like incense for rejecting the Catholic Dogma."

I challenge you to defend the idea that the Catholic church is the one true church and that the millions of Protestants are going to hell.

I would ask that my Atheism not be brought into this as this is a theological debate that I am well qualified to participate in.
DanielDate

Con

I hold that Protestant Denominations are invalid and only Catholics can enter Heaven. I have evidence for this in bible verses, fulfilled biblical prophesy, and writings of the early church. I will start with why Protestantism is invalid and bring forth why Catholicism is scriptural in the following arguments.

Protestantism Invalid. Point 1:

Philippians 2:2 >
"Fulfill ye my joy, that you may be of one mind, having the same charity, being of one accord."

Note: The true Christian faith is of one mind, one accord ... not 25,000.

Romans 15:6 >
"That with one mind, and with one mouth, you may glorify God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Note: The true Christian faith is of one mind, one mouth ... not 25,000.

1 Timothy 4:16 >
"Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee."

Note: There is only one set of doctrine.

Mark 11:22 >
"And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God."

Note: The words "the faith" show that there is only one ... by definition the heresies are not of Divine faith ... which is why they cost you your soul.

Protestantism Invalid. Point 2:

In Acts 15 we see that Paul and Barnabas, though guided by The Holy Spirit; could not determine if circumcision was necessary; the decision was left to Pope Peter at the Council of Jerusalem.

By this understanding, no Protestant Leader (and they all claim to have The Holy Spirit - and even if they did) can make any determination of what to do without putting themselves at higher authority than Paul and Barnabas. This in my logical opinion is the clear distinction of a False-Prophet.
Debate Round No. 1
Jakeross6

Pro

Now this is a good start. I will possibly bring in church history to help make my points, but that is beside the matter. I enjoy the fact that you first went to the bible. I happen to have the same version as you, so we shouldn't have any problems. Now, for the rebuttal.

Phillippians 2:2 does indeed state that phrase "being of one accord."

But what does this one solitary verse mean? To answer that question, I will look at the surrounding verses to Identify
A) Paul's meaning in this
B) and the intended message of this passage.

Philippians 1:28-2:4

1:28 And in nothing be terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; 30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me. 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

This passage is not speaking about the "one church" but unity among believers in the city to which Paul was writing about. This does not indicate in any way that the Catholic church or any church, for that matter, is the one true church.

Romans 15:4-7

For Whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. 5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

This passage does indeed agree with one mind, one mouth. But it says to glorify God. Once again, no reference to a single church.

1 Timothy 4: 11-16

11 These things I command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to the reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; That thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

This passage was giving advice to young Timothy. Child of two pagan parents, but a strong christian none the less. However, in the part where Paul states "Heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine..." What doctrine is he talking about. Is he talking about the doctrine of Christ, or the Catholic doctrine that had not even been conceived yet? I will come back to this passage later, but once again this passage is not talking about a church.

Mark 11:22-23

And Jesus answering them saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his hear, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

In your version of the bible, he says "Have the faith." Even translations disagree with you here. Jesus was speaking of faith in this passage and on until verse 26. Not that a specific interpretation of a yet unwritten bible was the correct way.

Finally, for the scriptures in Acts, I must say that first, Baptists live under the statement by Jesus that "All fall short of the glory of God." And that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the light. None may come to God except through me.

Pastors are meant to be guides rather than leaders. There is no real structure to the Baptist church and Pastors are referred to as "reverend" or "brother". In the Baptist church, all believers are equal. They are free to help one another, including the pastor, along the journey to heaven. They believe in Faith rather than works and they believe in a personal relationship with God, which Jesus taught to the Apostles when he told them to pray to God on many occasions, namely the night before his arrest and betrayal by Judas (Mathew 26). All believers are believed to be filled with the Holy Spirit and it provides guilt when speaking against the lord and sinning, and it provides the believer of Christ with the ability to pray unto the Lord Father in heaven. In John 3:16, Jesus says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that Whosoever Believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This implies that the only requirement for reaching heaven is the belief that Jesus Christ died for our sins as the perfect Son of God, who had sinned but paid for our punishment in full and that we must follow his teachings. In this idea, no Christ believing and following person would ever be excluded, whether they be protestant or catholic.

Both Catholicism and Baptism can work together to spread the love of Jesus and the need for a personal relationship with God.

Even though Baptists don't need the priests or honor the authority of the pope, belief in Jesus is really the only requirement for their entrance into heaven. Both Doctrines believe that Christ is the key to heaven, so both can spread Christianity and fight out the details later. As Christ said, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not be damned (Mathew 16:15-16)."

So why Condemn the Protestants to hell when you have the same goal- to spread the love of Jesus to the four corners of the Earth (metaphorically on the corners).
DanielDate

Con

Yes, Point 1 refers to unity. You skipped Point 2 about how no one has jurisdiction to form a sect and break unity without the incredibly audacity of demeaning Paul and Barnabas' authority as beneath them.

I will now re-iterate the point of jurisdiction with the earliest known non-biblical christian writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (50-110AD), which also shows the Primacy of Rome in keeping this unity.

A chapter comparison of Ignatius' letters proves without a doubt that he was in submission to Rome, the Catholic Tradition. He also frequently warns of heretics, which is what a Protestant is by taking authority away from the succession of Pope Peter.

Letter to Rome: (Submissive Language)

CHAPTER III.--PRAY RATHER THAT I MAY ATTAIN' TO MARTYRDOM.
CHAPTER IV.--ALLOW ME TO FALL A PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS.
CHAPTER V.--I DESIRE TO DIE.
CHAPTER VIII.--BE YE FAVOURABLE TO ME.
CHAPTER IX.--PRAY FOR THE CHURCH IN SYRIA.

Letter to Trallians: (Authoritative Language)

CHAPTER II.--BE SUBJECT TO THE BISHOP, ETC.
CHAPTER VI.--ABSTAIN FROM THE POISON OF HERETICS.
CHAPTER VIII.--BE ON YOUR GUARD AGAINST THE SNARES OF THE DEVIL
CHAPTER XI.--AVOID THE DEADLY ERRORS OF THE DOCETAE.
CHAPTER XII.--CONTINUE IN UNITY AND LOVE.

Letter to Magnesians: (Authoritative Language)

CHAPTER III.--HONOUR YOUR YOUTHFUL BISHOP
CHAPTER VI.--PRESERVE HARMONY.
CHAPTER VII.--DO NOTHING WITHOUT THE BISHOP AND PRESBYTERS.
CHAPTER X.--BEWARE OF JUDAIZING.
CHAPTER XI.--I WRITE THESE THINGS TO WARN YOU.
CHAPTER XIII.--BE ESTABLISHED IN FAITH AND UNITY.

Letter to Ephesians: (Authoritative Language)

CHAPTER III.--EXHORTATIONS TO UNITY.
CHAPTER VI.--HAVE RESPECT TO THE BISHOP AS TO CHRIST HIMSELF.
CHAPTER VII.--BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS.
CHAPTER X.--EXHORTATIONS TO PRAYER, HUMILITY, ETC.
CHAPTER XI.--AN EXHORTATION TO FEAR GOD, ETC.
CHAPTER XIII.--EXHORTATION TO MEET TOGETHER FREQUENTLY FOR THE WORSHIP OF GOD.
CHAPTER XIV.--EXHORTATIONS TO FAITH AND LOVE.
CHAPTER XV.--EXHORTATION TO CONFESS CHRIST BY SILENCE AS WELL AS SPEECH.
CHAPTER XVI.--THE FATE OF FALSE TEACHERS.
CHAPTER XVII.--BEWARE OF FALSE DOCTRINES.

Letter to Philadelphians (Authoritative Language)

CHAPTER II.--MAINTAIN UNION WITH THE BISHOP.
CHAPTER III.--AVOID SCHISMATICS.
CHAPTER IV.--HAVE BUT ONE EUCHARIST, ETC.
CHAPTER VI.--DO NOT ACCEPT JUDAISM.
CHAPTER VII.--I HAVE EXHORTED YOU TO UNITY.

Letter to Smyrnaeans (Authoritative Language)

CHAPTER IV.--BEWARE OF THESE HERETICS.
CHAPTER V.--THEIR DANGEROUS ERRORS,
CHAPTER VI--UNBELIEVERS IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SHALL BE CONDEMNED.
CHAPTER VII.--LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.
CHAPTER VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.
CHAPTER IX.--HONOUR THE BISHOP.

Letter to Polycarp (Authoritative Language)

CHAPTER I.-- COMMENDATION AND EXHORTATION.
CHAPTER V.--THE DUTIES OF HUSBANDS AND WIVES.
CHAPTER VI.--THE DUTIES OF THE CHRISTIAN FLOCK.
Debate Round No. 2
Jakeross6

Pro

Con, I am largely impressed by your knowledge of this theological debate and I shall now congratulate you on your win. I did not know that many of those letters even existed! It appears that I am not qualified to debate this aspect as I know little of the Catholic Dogma. Any further arguments on my part would be based on ignorance and make me look like a fool.

It appears that all I am able to do is regurgitate the teachings I renounced so long ago. You know things I do not and are therefore above me in any debate. I will forfeit the subsequent rounds. It seems that the biology that I love so much is where I need to stay.

If I actually believed in Christianity, I probably would have researched these further letters. But since I do not, and I reject the idea that all religion is based on in the first place, it is better for me to Forfeit this debate and declare you winner. If I can, I will even vote for you to assure your victory is shown by numbers.

Congratulations. Maybe another theologian could debate with you about such matters but I do not understand the details of the Catholic Dogma.

Have a good day.
DanielDate

Con

DanielDate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Jakeross6

Pro

So, apparently there's restrictions to argument size!
DanielDate

Con

DanielDate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Jakeross6

Pro

Enjoyed the Forfeit!
DanielDate

Con

DanielDate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
Con drops Pros round 2 arguments from the established New Testament cannon that both Protestants and Catholics accept as the authority over extra biblical dogma. Con attempts to baffle with BS in round 3. He does not establish that Peter was an authority vs an important contributor to early church ideas or even attempt to prove that he was the ultimate authority with successors.

He did not establish that these letters were an authority superior to the cannon. If they were the only relevant claim is that they encourage the church to avoid heresy, respect authority and avoid division. Pro simply asserted that Protestantism is heresy and the cause of division without evidence. Even if this were true there is no reason to suspect that Protestants and Catholics could not both be forgiven and go to heaven. Since Pro did not explicitly concede and Con forfeited and dropped arguments both arguments and conduct go to Pro.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
DanielDate
On Creationism Vs. Evolution:

The bible is clear that Humans were created separate from "Others", demonstrated by the Mark of Cain to protect him (even though he was one few 'humans' in existence).

One of the greatest frauds of our time is the notion that neanderthals are extinct. The xoelacanth fish was thought to be exist for 25 million years until someone caught one alive 10 years ago.

A brief examination of Larry King and Mao Zedong's skull shape shows those guys ain't even human.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
DanielDate
note on my last round my source for chapter description was http://www.earlychristianwritings.com... "Roberts-Donaldson English Translation"
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
DanielDate
MrMoves, every aspect of Catholicism is biblical; but it takes a real scholar to understand it.

Start a debate with me with your proposed non-biblical aspects of Catholicism.
Posted by Jakeross6 3 years ago
Jakeross6
I misspoke on that reference to mathew 16. I meant Mark
Posted by Jakeross6 3 years ago
Jakeross6
Mr. Moves, I would like to challenge you on a debate of creationism VS Evolution. I will begin preparing the debate.
Posted by Mr.Moves3 3 years ago
Mr.Moves3
Oh, I want to debate this guy too. I remembered his comment on that one debate.
Posted by Mr.Moves3 3 years ago
Mr.Moves3
There are many invalid points in Catholicsm. Also, they don't follow the Bible. And that's the primary commandment in Christianity. Follow God's words (Bible) and have faith in Jesus.. (Author of Christianity)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by NiqashMotawadi3 3 years ago
NiqashMotawadi3
Jakeross6DanielDateTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF.
Vote Placed by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
Jakeross6DanielDateTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments, Pro won without realizing it.