The Instigator
Multi_Pyrocytophage
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
PeacefulChaos
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Bowser vs the Sonic the Hedgehog. Hopefully...

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
PeacefulChaos
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/8/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,894 times Debate No: 21813
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (44)
Votes (3)

 

Multi_Pyrocytophage

Pro

The first round is for acceptance only. In a one-on-one battle, Bowser from "Mario" could defeat Sonic the Hedgehog from "Sonic the Hedgehog."

The rules are as follows:

1. There will be no abuse of linguistics, semantics, or such in the debate.
2. Items are not allowed in this debate.
3. The setting of the fight is a square field that is ten miles on each side. This square can not be exited.
4. No allies are allowed in this battle. An ally in this debate is anything that can act on its own to aid the battler. Therefore, a robot that aids Sonic or a Koopa aiding Bowser is an ally.
5. Invincibility stars are not allowed in this debate (emphasis).

BOP: Pro, (I), must prove that Bowser could defeat Sonic the Hedgehog.
BOP: Con, (PeacefulChaos), must prove that Sonic the Hedgehog could defeat Bowser.
Neither side can argue for a tie.
I guess that's it. I hope my opponent enjoys this debate as I do.

Please disregard the other debate challenge, as I messed up there.
Well PeacefulChaos, I want to debate this topic, and since my other opponent has refused to accept after a long time, I will debate this with you!
PeacefulChaos

Con

I accept the terms that my opponent has set for this debate. We have also agreed in the comments section that Sonic will have his shoes, he arena will be made of stone, and that Sonic's rings will not play a factor in this fight. As a result, Sonic will be able to use all of his powers without the use of rings.

I hand over the next round to my opponent and eagerly look forward to his arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Multi_Pyrocytophage

Pro

I apologize to my opponent for posting my arguments somewhat late, since I was slightly busy. Nonetheless, let the debate commence!

Countering Sonic.

Neither side can go for a tie. Looking at Bowser and Sonic, it is likely Sonic will attack first, since his speed is what he needs to attack Bowser. Since Bowser doesn't have speed to match, the key to him winning in the debate relies on him countering Sonic's moves. I will show different ways Sonic can possibly attack, and how Bowser can counter this.

1) Straightforward Attack.

The most basic attack Sonic can go with is a straightforward attack: charging straight at Sonic. There are several ways Bowser can counter this. He can block an attack with the raw strength of his hands to block a speed assault, hide in his shell when Sonic comes about 20 meters near bowser. or breathe flurry fireballs to ensure Sonic doesn't use his reflexes to counter.

2) Dashing attack followed by spinning.

Sonic has the ability to run in tight circles despite going at very fast speeds. At such high speeds, Sonic can literally make a tornado of wind around Bowser. However, Bowser has ways of dealing with this also. Sonic will have to be relatively close to Bowser to make a high-concentration tornado. This means Bowser can shoot flurry of fireballs and hit Sonic (at least one will hit Sonic) which will make Sonic burn. While he could still keep running to make the tornado, he would start burning faster, and Bowser can hide in his shell to endure the attack, though he won't leave unscathed. Sonic will be hurt from the fire, allowing Bowser to deal a finishing move.

3) Speed Spinball.
Sonic will use his speed and try to attack Bowser. However, Bowser can counter this. He can breathe a continuous stream of fire which will stop Sonic's spinning and leave him burned. Sonic has the willpower to run away after being burned, but he will be permanently scarred for the fight and won't be able to fight Bowser as well, which will eventually lead to his demise in the fight.

4) Speed Homing Attack.

Sonic can also charge at Bowser and use his Homing Attack to fool Bowser. However, Bowser can counter this also. Bowser can hold his hands in defense to the initial attack, should it happen. When Sonic goes into the air to prepare for a Homing Attack, he can breathe fire at Bowser while Sonic is airborne. If Bowser is not quick enough on the draw, he can use the spikes on his shell to at least deal recoil to Sonic. Sonic will be permanently hurt if this happens, which will result in his lowered fighting capacity leading to his downfall.
5) Sonic Drift
This move implies Sonic charging at a fast speed and then turning, using his momentum to crash into the target. However, this move slows Sonic down, and when Bowser sees Sonic doing this he can counter with fire to burn Sonic. Should Sonic jump up or to the side, Bowser can instantaneously fire another fireball at Sonic to counter this strategy. Sonic can escape unscathed, but this technique won't work on Bowser.

6) Sonic Boost

Sonic charges himself in an aura and fires himself at the opponent at breakneck speeds. We all know Bowser can not dodge this easily, and know that Bowser will have difficulty blocking it. However, Bowser can use his fire breathing skills, since Sonic cannot turn so well using this move. Bowser can shoot blue flames that track the opponent. Bowser can aim these blue flames at Sonic's eyes to momentarily cloud his vision, since the blue flames will be easily dissipated by the blue Aura. Bowser can jump backwards slightly and let out a big fireball, and Sonic won't see this coming in his moment of confusion. While this won't hurt Sonic, it will effectively stop the Sonic Boost and change to a straightforward attack, which Bowser can counter.

7) Pure Speed and Intense Reflexes.

There is a possibility that Sonic can run very far away from Bowser, and blast at near light speed towards Bowser. It is impossible for Bowser to dodge something like this. However, there is a way for Bowser to stop this. It will take Sonic 5-15 seconds to go backwards far enough that he will accelerate at Bowser and be blistering fast to literally blind Bowser. When Sonic is about 100 m off and Bowser sees the blur, he can use a full-power ground pound. This ground pound is strong enough to cause a massive shockwave. By that time Sonic will be very close to Bowser, and Sonic will be momentarily stopped by the shockwave. In this moment of shock, Bowser can use his strong roar to momentarily paralyze Sonic, and then give Sonic a big punch to the face. At this point, Bowser can breathe fire at Sonic, which will slowly lead to Bowser's win.

Sources for all arguments: http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://sonic.wikia.com...
http://sonic.wikia.com...
Conclusion.

I have shown various ways that Sonic will try and attack Bowser, and how Bowser can deal with each method of attacking. I have shown how Sonic will be the first one to try and attack Bowser, and how it is key for Bowser to counter's Sonic's attacks rather than initiate attackings.

I look forward to my opponent's arguments. Knowing my opponent personally, I know he will find a stellar away around this.

Nonetheless, with that, I hand over the next round to my opponent.
PeacefulChaos

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for providing such well thought out arguments; however, there are several recurring flaws within these arguments, and these flaws must be addressed.

Pro’s Case-

Countering Sonic

Here my opponent states that it is likely Sonic will attack Bowser first, and his reasoning behind this is, “. . . his speed is what he needs to attack Bowser.”

Simply because Sonic relies upon his speed does not mean he will be the one to make the first move. He will probably want to look at who he is facing before he attacks. When he sees Bowser’s ugly face, he will probably comment on it, since he has a rather sarcastic and joking attitude and, when in battle, he usually taunts his enemies [1]. Bowser will most likely be enraged by this comment and will probably blunder forward clumsily, leaving himself very vulnerable.

1) Straightforward Attack

My opponent lists three options that Bowser has to defend against Sonic, and these options are, to put it simply, rather useless. The first and foremost problem is that Bowser will not be able to react in time when Sonic attacks him. By the time Bowser even realizes that he has been hit, it will be too late. Even if Bowser somehow can react to something that goes faster than the speed of sound, these defensive options would still fail. Sonic has been seen to be able to run through robots composed of steel and metal numerous times with his hand or even his body without even being slightly fazed [1]. He has also been known to control the density of his quills, which enables him to tear through thick steel walls [1]. If that isn’t amazing enough, Sonic has been able to slice through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound [1]; thus, I believe that Bowser will not pose much of a problem if he attempts to block Sonic with his hands, because Sonic can literally rip through them. Bowser’s second option (which was hiding in his shell) is also useless for reasons stated above. Bowser’s third option (which was shooting fireballs at Sonic) is equally useless. Sonic’s intense and lightning fast reflexes will enable him to dodge any fireballs that Bowser shoots at him. Furthermore, since Sonic can break the sound barrier and move faster than sound itself, any projectiles that Bowser launches at him will seem to be moving extremely slowly from Sonic’s point of view. Even if one of these fireballs somehow manages to hit Sonic, I do not believe that they will harm him. After all, Sonic is capable of running faster than the speed of sound (and, in certain cases, at the speed of light), yet he does not catch on fire despite the fact that he has fur all over his body and that he is running so fast. Clearly, Sonic has an extremely high level of resistance to fire, and as a result, he will not be fazed by Bowser’s fireballs. Furthermore, Sonic has ridiculously high amounts of resilience to physical damage. He has been able to survive numerous free falls from space and merely shake them off as if nothing happened [1]. As a result, Bowser’s fireballs will most likely not harm Sonic.

Arguments 2)-5)

Bowser's tactics will not work for reasons explained above.

6) Sonic Boost

In the source you provided, I cannot find where it says Sonic cannot turn very well when using this move. As a result, he will easily be able to avoid any flames Bowser shoots at him. Alternatively, he could simply use his “Quick Step,” which enables him to dodge incoming objects despite their speed [1] [3]. Furthermore, Bowser will not be able to carry out these tactics because he cannot react to Sonic, who moves faster than sound. I find my opponent’s statement, “Bowser can aim these blue flames at Sonic's eyes to momentarily cloud his vision . . .” almost ridiculous. Bowser will only be able to see a short blur of movement at the very best, so he will not be able to precisely aim at Sonic’s eyes, if he can aim at all.

7) Pure Speed and Intense Reflexes

Pro states that it will take 10-15 seconds for Sonic to get far away enough to use his attack, when in reality he will be able to go far enough away in one or two seconds considering his amazing speed. Bowser will be greatly confused at the sudden disappearance of Sonic, and he will be unprepared for what comes next. In addition, my opponent claims that Bowser will, “see a blur,” but since Sonic is using one of his light speed attacks, he will be moving at the speed of light, and Bowser will not see anything whatsoever (at the very best, he might see a slight flicker). The only thing he will see is his own demise once Sonic hits him full force. If Bowser is somehow fast enough to react to Sonic, and he somehow manages to do a ground pound, Sonic can simply counter this by jumping into the air and he may then proceed to do an aerial attack.

Now that I have refuted my opponent’s arguments, I shall move on to my own.

1) You were hitting me this whole time? Oh, I didn’t notice!

Bowser’s attacks will be virtually useless against Sonic. As I have previously stated, Sonic can endure extreme amounts of physical damage, as is shown when he was caught in crossfire from all angels by Eggman’s robots and is only knocked out briefly by this. He is also capable of running through extremely hard objects such as robots or walls with his fists or body without even being fazed or hurt. Not to mention that he has survived numerous freefalls from space only to get up and shake it off like nothing happened [1]. I believe that a freefall from space would cause much greater damage than a swipe from Bowser or a fireball. If that isn’t bad enough for poor old Bowser, Sonic can heal himself by vibrating his molecules very quickly [1]. So even if Bowser somehow manages to deal a life threatening blow, Sonic could run away, heal himself, and come back to fight Bowser again.

2) Pfft, I’ve face people way more powerful than you!

Sonic has faced enemies far more powerful than Bowser. One of the most prominent enemies that Sonic has been able to defeat through sheer will and skills was Ultimate Emerl. Emerl had the abilities of every character, all seven chaos emeralds, and the power of a star-busting system cannon, yet Sonic was able to defeat him [1]. As a result, it is evident that Sonic will be able to overcome Bowser and defeat him since he was able to defeat what you could call a “mini-god.”

3) Time to attack!

I thank my opponent for providing me with attacks that Sonic could use against Bowser, but I would like to add several extra attacks that he did not mention. For example, Sonic is capable of releasing shockwaves by spinning at very high speeds [1]. He is also capable of making an, “Insta-shield,” which allows Sonic to encompass himself in a shield of bluish-white energy protecting him from harm for a split second and allowing him to strike through enemy weaknesses [3]. Sonic also has several ways of making a tornado other than running at extremely high speeds. One way is called “Sonic Wind,” where he is able to conjure a powerful whirl wind of swirling blue blades of energy that will damage all opponents caught within it [3].

4) Strategy time!

Sonic could easily run away from the very beginning of the fight. Bowser will probably try to look around for Sonic. Sonic could allow Bowser to see him for several moments, causing Bowser to charge at him at full speed. Then Sonic could run away again. If he repeats this process, Bowser will become very tired quickly, leaving him very vulnerable and easy to attack.

Conclusion-

In the end, Bowser just doesn’t have what it takes to take down Sonic. Sonic is just too fast and too resiliant for Bowser. Besides, “You can’t hit what you can’t catch.”

I wish my opponent luck in his arguments and hope he is enjoying this debate as much as I am.

Sources- (check the "personality" and "abilities")

[1] http://sonic.wikia.com...

[2] www.mariowiki.com/Bowser

[3] http://concept-mobius.technoguild.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Multi_Pyrocytophage

Pro

As expected, my opponent has provided excellent rebuttals, enough that I consider forfeiting. Nonetheless, I will do my best against him. Nonetheless, I thank my opponent for providing such a challenge.

I will do my best against my skilled opponent.

Countring Sonic

My opponent states that instead Bowser will be the one to attack first. However, should Sonic taunt Bowser and he blunders forwardly, Sonic will not attack. Why? Because of his joking and sarcastic attitude, as my opponent has stated, and his cockiness [2]. Anyhow, Sonic will allow Bowser to attack, which means Sonic will counter and start attacking Bowser with reflex moves. However, given Bowser's incredible physical resistance and durability, these attacks won't do much. Eventually, Bowser will get his arms up, leaving Sonic momentarily dazed, and will either go for another attack or flee. Should Sonic go for another attack, Bowser can dodge, as he will eventually understand the pattern behind Sonic's move. Then Bowser can grab Sonic. Once Sonic is grabbed, it is over for him, since his strength is far from Bowser's, where Bowser could proceed to burn Sonic to death, something Sonic can not resist.

1) Straightforward Attack

Looking at Bowser's agility, he is actually as fast as Mario [1]. While this is nothing compared to Sonic, it gives him some merit. Although I did not state this before, Bowser has the ability to use dark magic quite proficiently [1], albeit the fact that he is rarely seen using them. Bowser's dark magic abilities allow him to do things such as use lightning bolts and even teleport. My opponent has effectively rebutted my other arguments, but Bowser can counter by shooting lightning-fast lightning. Even with Sonic's reflexes, it is hard to dodge lightning, and should Sonic get to close and Bowser can't use his other defensive options, he can teleport away, failing this attacking manuever.

2) - 5)

My opponent has not rebutted these arguments, therefore, I will allow him to do so in the next round.

6) Sonic Drift

I apologize for this, and this is a fail on my part. However, I will adress the topic at hand. However, given Sonic uses quickstep, Bowser can shoot tracking blue flames. Sonic will dodge them, but the flames will come back at him. Perhaps my opponent will find this statement more suitable than my other statement. Therefore, Bowser won't have to aim at Sonic's eyes, but his blurs instead.

7) Pure Speed and Intense Reflexes

My opponent's statement is flawed. Here, I am stating that Sonic will be moving at light speed. Even Sonic, with his speed capabilities, can not initiate light speed in a matter of two seconds. He will have to move back a fair distance to accelerate to the point of light speed, and then charge at Bowser, taking around 10-15 seconds. Bowser will not sit idly when Sonic does this. Even if Bowser is confused and an idiot, he is at least smart enough to know by now that Sonic takes advantage of his speed. If he sees Sonic go backwards, he is at least smart enough to know Sonic is preparing a massive attack. As shown, Bowser can proceed to use very fast lightning strikes to try and hit Sonic, and should that fail, Bowser can teleport or try again. This does not guarantee a hit on Sonic, but will prevent him from using this move against Bowser.

With my opponent's rebuttals rebutted, I will go ahead and move on to his arguments.

1) You were hitting me this whole time? Oh, I didn't notice!

Sonic can resist extreme amount of pain, but Bowser can get around this. Once Bowser grabs Sonic by countering Sonic, shown in the beginning, Sonic is powerless; his strength isn't enough to get out of Bowser's grip, Bowser can proceed to smash Sonic on the ground. Bowser can then burn Sonic with his fire, and since Sonic is facing Bowser up, his quills won't help him, and he can't sink in to the ground, given it is made of stone, as in the comments section. If fire isn't enough to work on poor old Sonic, Bowser can proceed to stab Sonic with his spikes and make him bleed on his belly. This situation would allow Sonic to get up and escape, but the wounds he would endure on the weak part of his body would leave him crippled. Sonic can heal himself by vibrating molecules very quickly, but when his is on fire, vibrating molecules will just amp up the fire, making it worse for him.

2) Pfft, I've face people way more powerful than you!

While my opponent is in no way incorrect, this does not uphold his BOP stated in round one. Though Sonic defeated Emerl, this does not necessarily guarantee a win against Bowser, though my opponent presents an excellent case by doing so.

3) Time to Attack

I welcome my opponent for his thanks, though I have rebutted those attacks I provided for him. Sonic can indeed release shockwaves at very high speeds. My opponent makes no mention at how fast they are, implying Bowser can use his relative agility to dodge a few, or counter with his lightning. Bowser can teleport away from the line of attack using his Dark Magic teleportation. Sonic wind makes swirling blades of energy, which can be countered by Bowser's lightning abilities.

4) Startegy Time!

I know Sonic can run away. However, as stated in the Pure Speed and Intense Reflexes argument, Bowser is smart enough to know that Sonic is preparing an attack. Bowser is not dumb enough to charge at nothing when there is no target in zone. Repeating this process really won't help.

---

Now that my opponents arguments have been rebutted as best as I can, I will now conjure some new arguments to use.

1) Size Transformation

According to source [1], Bowser needs no item to perform his dark magic. He can shrink Sonic when he is momentarily stopped in the above arguments, and then make him small. Additionally, he could turn Sonic into a frog [1], at which point Sonic will lose his speed, making him easily destroyed by Bowser.

2) Andrenaline Rush

Should all above options be exhausted, Bowser has an internal mechanism in his Rump Command [3] that allow him to become massive in size, big enough to parallel his own castle [1]. Sonic will likely try to run away from such a sight, but Bowser can quickly stoop down and use his arms to make a circular ring that traps Sonic, given Bowser's colosall size. Do not forget Bowser can still use his magic if necessary. At this point, Bowser can use anything to finish off Bowser, who is effectively trapped by Bowser. (Not Bowser Bones).

Conclusion

My opponent has definitely brought up good cases, but I have shown that my entire case does not consider flaws.

Sources

1. http://www.mariowiki.com...
2. http://sonic.wikia.com...
3. http://www.mariowiki.com...

PeacefulChaos

Con

Countering Sonic

Pro says Sonic will not attack Bowser as he is charging forward, and his reasoning is that Sonic has a joking attitude. Just because Sonic has a sarcastic attitude doesn’t make him stupid enough to miss such a great opportunity to attack Bowser.

Then he says Sonic’s attacks won't do much to Bowser. Sonic is capable of ripping through a battleship when traveling less than the speed of sound (768 miles per hour) [1]. If he were to go at his top speed at Bowser (3,840 miles per hour), Sonic would literally rip right through him.

Pro also says that Bowser will understand the pattern behind Sonic’s attacks; however, when I last checked, Bowser lacked a large amount of common sense [2]. While he may be intelligent in designing machines or coming up with extravagant plans, he is extremely stupid when in the heat or midst of things, as shown when he breathed fire on a Superbombomb because it would not blow up. He also did not realize that he could not rule the world if it was destroyed until Mario explained this to him. Clearly, Bowser will not be capable of understanding Sonic’s pattern. Even if Bowser somehow did get Sonic’s pattern, he would be helpless to stop it. Bowser is just too slow for Sonic.

Pro also says Bowser can burn Sonic to death; however, I have already showed that Sonic is capable of running at light speed without even catching on fire. Clearly, he is extremely resistant to fire, and as a result, Bowser’s fireballs will not work on Sonic.

1) Straight Forward Attack

In the source Pro provides, it says that Bowser’s speed is inconsistent, and he is usually slower than Mario; therefore, he is most likely going to be his usual slow self in this fight.

Pro says Bowser can summon lightning. In the first video, it is shown that it takes time for Bowser to summon the lightning. His hands begin to glow for approximately two or three seconds, and then he has to aim at where he wants to fire the lightning (happens at 0050 to 1:10) [3]. In the time that Bowser has to charge up his powers and aim at Sonic, Sonic will already be attacking Bowser. Bowser will also have a very difficult time aiming at Sonic, since Sonic can move at 3,840 miles per hour. While Bowser is raising his hands in Sonic’s direction, Sonic can go behind Bowser or move to another spot. Bowser will be too slow to aim correctly at Sonic, so he will not be able to hit him.

Pro also says Bowser can teleport. In the second video, it shows Bowser teleporting by fading very slowly and after several seconds, he appears somewhere else (happens at 7:55 to 8:25) [4]. In addition, when Bowser “teleports,” you can see a circular shadow move to where he will teleport. This shadow moves very slowly, so Sonic will be able to follow the shadow to where Bowser appears and continue to attack him. Moreover, he can only use this move every ten seconds or so, which leaves Sonic with plenty of time to continue hitting Bowser. You will also notice how Bowser moves slower than walking speed in the fight. Clearly, using his teleportation drains Bowser’s speed, and this will make it very easy for Sonic to attack him.

2)-5)

Bowser’s abilities will not work for reasons stated above.

6) Sonic Drift

Pro says the blue flames will follow Sonic; however, they will not be able to keep up with him, and from his perspective, they will seem to be moving extremely slowly. Sonic can also attack Bowser at very high speeds and then run away again so the flames will not hit him. Sonic is also resistant to flames, as I have already shown.

7) Pure Speed and Intense Reflexes

I didn't say Sonic could go at light speed in two seconds. I said it would take him two seconds to get far enough away, and then he could charge at Bowser using the light speed attack. That takes about four seconds. In total, it would take about six seconds.

In addition, Bowser, as I have previously mentioned, lacks large amounts of common sense. I do not think he will understand what Sonic is doing, and he will probably believe he will have won the fight, since Sonic just ran away from him. If that is not enough to fool him, Sonic could always shout out, “Oh, no. Bowser is too powerful. I’m so scared,” and run away.

Bowser's teleportation will not work against Sonic's light speed attack. His lightning would not work either because it takes several seconds to charge, and in that time Sonic could have run around the arena and hit Bowser multiple times.

My Case-

1) You were hitting me this whole time? Oh, I didn’t notice!

When Sonic runs, he usually runs forward. Since he can run forward at light speed and does not catch on fire, it is clear that Bowser’s fire will not work on Sonic regardless of which way he is facing. My opponent also believes that Bowser’s spikes will hurt Sonic; however, he completely disregards what I said earlier about Sonic enduring very heavy blows. Also, since Sonic won't be affected by the fire, he can use his healing abilities. Let us not forget that as Bowser turns around to stab Sonic, he is giving Sonic a chance to run away, so this attack won't work anyways.

2) Pfft, I’ve faced people way more powerful than you!

This argument was to show that Sonic's willpower will allow him to win any fight, no matter what situation he is presented with. Pro has made no attempt to show that Bowser is as powerful as Emerl; therefore, if Sonic can beat someone way more powerful than Bowser, then it is logical to conclude he can beat Bowser himself.

3) Time to attack!

Shockwaves travel faster than the speed of sound [5]. Bowser will not be able to dodge this. Lightning does not affect shockwaves or wind, so it will be a useless defense. Also, shockwaves become stronger as the medium they are traveling along becomes hotter; therefore, the lightning will simply strengthen the shockwave [5]. Pro also drops the “Insta-shield,” argument.

4) Strategy time!

As I said before, Bowser is not very smart, and he will be pretty angry at Sonic, making him think irrationally; thus, it is likely this tactic will work.

Now I will refute my opponent’s additional arguments.

1) Size Transformation

In the third video that I have provided, Bowser can only turn Koopa Troopa into a frog using his wand (happens at 6:10 to 6:20) [7]. My opponent said no items were to be allowed within this debate; thus, he is breaking his own rules.

Pro also says that Bowser can make Sonic small (according to his source, it happens in Mario Party 4); however, looking into the game, it turns out that characters only turn small when they land on a certain square and obtain a mini-mushroom [8]. Again, no items are allowed in this debate, so this will not work.

2) Adrenaline Rush

Bowser can only grow big when he is in mortal danger. He also needs someone to actually go inside his body and shoot orbs of adrenaline at his heart [9]. No outside help is allowed, so this won't work.

Before ending this round, I would like to make an additional argument.

5) Sonic’s Shoes

My opponent said Sonic will be allowed to have his shoes; thus, Sonic will be capable of summoning a thunder shield, since he has a yellow gem within his shoes given to him by Mr. Roberto [10]. This will block any lightning and/or fire attacks Bowser throws at him and can also be used to harm Bowser. Sonic can also slow time down around him using the red gem in his shoes [10].

Well, I have exhausted my character limit, and I thank my opponent for posing such a challenge. This debate has been much harder than I expected.

Sources-

[1] http://sonic.wikia.com...

[2] http://www.mariowiki.com...

[5] http://www.britannica.com...

[7] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[8] http://www.mariowiki.com...

[9] http://concept-mobius.technoguild.com...

Debate Round No. 3
Multi_Pyrocytophage

Pro



Countering Sonic

Sonic's joking attitude is not the only reason I provide. I have stated that Sonic's cockiness and overconfidence [2] will mean Sonic won't attack Bowser. As the source states, Sonic won't be willing to use all of his power. Thus, Sonic won't attack Bowser until Bowser gets close to Sonic, as Sonic will consider Bowser a weak enemy.


My opponent says that Sonic can rip through battleships when traveling close to 768 mph. However, when Sonic has no back up speed, I fail to see how this would apply.

Now, let us consider what happens in a close-up fight. I doubt Sonic will run away due to his cockiness. The only thing Sonic can do is use some quick kicks and other reflexive attacks. Bowser might be stupid, but even he will raise his arms up if he realizes he is being attacked. Sonic will be momentarily dazed in the air since he lacks his foothold, and Bowser, now enraged, will use his arms to grab Sonic and pin him down on the floor. My opponent has not challenged the fact that Sonic will be unable to escape due to Bowser's raw strength.

Now, Bowser has Sonic pinned to the ground. Bowser has many oppurtunities, which I will further explain.

------

If Sonic does in fact attack Bowser first, we move into the below arguments.

1) Straightforward Attack

My opponent is correct. However, Bowser can be as agile as Mario, therefore, I do not see how this rebuttal can work.


Looking at my opponent's video, Bowser does take time to use the lightning. However, I see Bowsersummoning a battleship, which would obviously take more time. If Bowser did not summon the battleship, we can cut out 1:00 to 1:07 from the time it takes. Thus, it would probably take four to six seconds total for Bowser to use his lightning attack. Of course, this won't be fast enough to counter Sonic's 1-2 second straightforward attack, so I will show how teleportation can be used instead.

Looking at teleportation, my opponent is definitely correct. When Sonic charges in at Bowser, Bowser can simply teleport towards the direction Sonic is coming at. Bowser will pass right through Sonic. If Sonic hopes to hit Bowser, he'll have to make a sharp u-turn, cutting some of his speed. Since Bowser moves slowly in the teleportation, Sonic will have to skid, cutting even more of his speed. Sonic now does not have so much speed to back up his attack, giving Bowser time to react with hitting Sonic with lightning, or protecting himself against Sonic's weakened attacks. In addition, now that Sonic won't be able to rip Bowser apart, Bowser can use his shell, which if Sonic tries to punch will result in bleeding his arms, or if Sonic tries to kick, he will damage his shoes and the gems inside of them, which I will refer back to later.

2)-5) Sonic's attacks will not work, looking at the above statements.

6) Sonic Drift

My opponent has countered my blue flame argument, so I will use the teleportation and lightning arguments I used in the last round. Sonic Drift will take longer for Sonic to execute, because it involves Sonic turning and using his momentum against Sonic. Drifting will slightly slow down Sonic, causing the move to take about four-to-fight seconds. Bowser can teleport in the direction Sonic comes in, which I have shown is effective against Sonic's speed in the 1st rebuttal. Bowser will take about four to five seconds for his lightning attack, as shown above. Bowser does not have to aim at Sonic. He can aim near himself. Though Sonic has some degree of lightning resistance, the rocks that will fly around from the lightning strike will prevent him from successfully executing the Sonic Drift attack.

7) Pure Speed and Intense Reflexes

My opponent states it will take six seconds to initiate the light speed attack. As I showed, lightning from Bowser will take about 4-5 seconds. Bowser does not have to aim this lightning straight at Sonic. Though Bowser is indeed dumb, I will show how Bowser's counter will still work. As Sonic runs away, Bowser will get angry, and use his already summoned lightning from the above arguments to attack Sonic. This will take Bowser about 1-2 seconds. Of course, Bowser will miss, but when Sonic comes back at light speed, the flying rocks from the lightning strike will cause trouble for Sonic. He will be forced to slightly dodge or use his quills to smash through the rocks. Because of this, Sonic will lose some of his speed. Bowser can then proceed to teleport from a slowed attack, and as shown above, Sonic will have to make a sharp u-turn and cut more of his speed if he wishes to get Bowser with this move.

Of course, my opponent then says that Sonic will say "Oh, no. Bowser is too powerful. I'm so scared." and run away. However, Bowser will still get angry, since Bowser likes to finish off his opponents rather than let them live, due to his lack of empathy [1].

Con's Case:

1) You were hitting me this whole time? Oh, I didn't notice!

As promised, I will show how Bowser can then defeat Sonic. Shown above, Bowser will have Sonic pinned to the ground, with Sonic powerless to escape. His quills will be useless since Sonic is facing up towards Bowser. I have shown two different ways Bowser can opt to finish Sonic in previous rounds: Raw strength through sharp objects and horrid fire. Sonic may be resistant to damage and have healing abilities, but that by no way means Bowser can't amputate Sonic. Bowser can dig his sharp claws into Sonic's neck. Sonic can't heal as fast as Bowser pries, eventually leading to Sonic's downfall. Even if Sonic can endure heavy blows, he can't endure having his neck pried at. Bowser will have decapitated Sonic's head, leaving Sonic dead. My opponent showed how using another spiked alternative, the spikes on Bowser's back won't work, so I give that to Pro. Now I will move on to fire.

Con says that Sonic is resistant to fire because he does not catch from fire at lightspeed. However, I believe this is only shows that Sonic is resistant to catching on fire that comes from friction. However, this does not prove a resistance to real fire, not the fire that can come from friction. Additionally, my opponent says Sonic does not catch on fire, which means there is no showing of actual resistance to fire when Sonic is burning. So, this means Sonic can in fact catch on fire. Now, as Bowser pries through his neck and Bowser uses very strong Blue flames on Sonic's head, he will be unconscious from having his neck partially destroyed: this means Sonic really cannot vibrate his molecules as a defense, giving Bowser the win here.

2) Pfft, I've faced people way more powerful than you!

I do believe that Con is missing the point of my argument here. A win against Emerl does not guarantee a win against Bowser; this argument does not uphold the BOP. Nonetheless, since Pro asks me to show how Bowser is as strong as Emerl, I will do so for him.

3) Time to attack!

My opponent has now showed me how fast these shockwaves are. Bowser does not have to dodge, and teleportation can be the alternative. Bowser can teleport towards the shockwave's direction. Sonic will likely charge in after Bowser does this. However, Sonic will be somewhat close to Bowser. If he wasn't, Bowser would have had more time to react to the shockwave. Nonetheless, Sonic won't have so much speed to help him, allowing Bowser to counter with his shell. If Sonic kicks, he will damage his shoes, breaking the gems inside him.

1) + 2)

My opponent has rebutted these arguments, and I can't do anything to counter here.

5) Sonic's shoes

Sonic's shoes can help, but Bowser has a way to deal with them. As showed above, Sonic will damage his shoes by kicking Bowser, breaking these gems. If Bowser has pinned down Sonic and the shoes are not broken, Bowser can use his arms to prevent Sonic from escaping, take off the shoes, and then finish Sonic off.

Sorry for the lack of sources: I felt they weren't so necessary in the last round. Thanks for a great debate, PeacefulChaos.

1. http://www.mariowiki.com...
2. http://sonic.wikia.com...

PeacefulChaos

Con


(All sources posted in this round have already been posted before.)


Countering Sonic


Sonic’s quills let him sense danger; thus, he will realize Bowser is a powerful opponent [1]. This will make him more serious than usual and will allow him to use his more powerful attacks. Sonic can also use “Sonic Boost,” which implies he travels at blistering speeds in a dash, meaning he can do this instantaneously [2]. This means Sonic can still attack Bowser at speeds higher than the speed of sound, and this will replace his backup speed; thus, he will still be capable of ripping through Bowser.


Also, how Bowser will be able to react in time to Sonic’s speed? Even without any backup speed, Sonic can still move surprisingly fast, so it is unlikely Bowser will be able to block Sonic’s attacks. Alternatively, Sonic could just slow down time and kill Bowser.


Pro then says that Sonic will be dazed if Bowser brings his arms up to block Sonic, because Sonic will lack a foothold; however, lacking a foot hold will not stop him, since he can use the Sonic Boost in midair [1]. This will let him tear straight through Bowser.


If all of the above rebuttals don’t work and Bowser somehow manages to grab Sonic, Sonic can activate the yellow gem in his shoes and use the thunder shield to shock Bowser, allowing Sonic to get away. Remember, Sonic doesn’t actually have to spin or move for this to work; he can simply do it whenever he wants [3]. Pro says Sonic will be unwilling to use the power, but since Bowser is about to cut Sonic’s head off and burn him to ashes, I would say that Sonic would be panicked enough to use his yellow gem. After he gets away, he will become much more serious with Bowser and use his full power against him, such as slowing down time. Once he does that, Bowser has essentially lost.


1) Straightforward Attack


It doesn’t really matter if Bowser is as fast and agile as Mario, since Sonic can still move at blistering speeds far above Mario and Bowser combined.


Pro says Bowser can teleport through Sonic and that it will take time for Sonic to turn. However, Sonic can easily turn in very tight circles without trouble, so it is unlikely that this will slow him down much [1]. Also, he can keep his eyes on the shadow of where Bowser is moving, and while he is watching, he can charge up his attack. By the time Bowser appears, Sonic will have fully charged his attack, and he will run straight at Bowser. Bowser will have absolutely no way of dodging this, since I already have shown how teleportation drains him of his speed and he can only use it every 10 seconds. After that, it’s all over for Bowser, since I already have shown how Sonic can rip through battleships without even traveling at the speed of sound.


Furthermore, Pro says if Sonic kicks Bowser’s shell, his shoes and gems will break; however, since Sonic can run at the speed of light with his shoes pounding on the floor, and also since he has been seen kicking enemies with his shoes multiple times without his gems and/or shoes breaking, it is unlikely that the gems within Sonic’s shoes will break.


2)-5)


Bowser’s tactics will not work for reasons stated above.


6) Sonic Drift


Again, Sonic can turn in very tight circles extremely quickly, so the Sonic Drift will not slow him down very much. Bowser’s teleportation abilities will not work for reasons stated above. Also, if Bowser aims his lightning near himself, it is possible that the rocks that go flying will hit Bowser instead of Sonic. Sonic’s intense and ridiculously amazing reflexes will allow him to dodge any incoming projectiles and still hit Bowser. Bowser, on the other hand, is much too slow and clumsy to dodge much of anything, so it is likely that the rocks will hit him.


7) Pure Speed and Intense Reflexes


Pro says that if Bowser hits the ground with lightning, rocks will fly into the air. Sonic is moving at light speed. Unless you can somehow prove that flying rocks are capable of moving faster than light, then Sonic can easily dodge them without trouble and hit Bowser. At best, these projectiles will slow Sonic by 100-200 mph. He will still be moving faster than the naked eye can see, so Bowser will be too slow to use his teleportation.


Pro’s Additional Arguments-


1) + 2)


Pro agrees that Bowser’s abilities will not work because of the rules of this debate.


My Case-


1) You were hitting me this whole time? Oh, I didn’t notice!


I have already shown why Bowser grabbing Sonic will not work, and even if he does how the thunder shield will protect him and harm Bowser. I'd also like to address his argument about Sonic's resistance to fire, even though I don't have to since Sonic's thunder shield would protect him.


Sonic has survived free falls from space. Things falling from space burn because of earth's atmosphere, but since Sonic was able to get up after the fall from space as if nothing had happened, it is clear that the fire did not affect him. Also, if Sonic vibrates his molecules to heal himself, he will not amp the fire, since Pro agreed that Sonic is resistant to catching on fire from friction. It will simply heal him.


2) Pfft, I’ve faced people way more powerful than you!


Pro says he will show how Bowser is more powerful than Emerl, but he fails to do so. The purpose of this argument was not to show that Sonic will be guaranteed a win, but rather that it is likely he will win. Since he can beat someone more powerful than Bowser, it is extremely likely he will win against Bowser himself. This argument also shows that Sonic is most likely more experienced than Bowser and is unlikely to give up in the fight.


3) Time to attack!


It is unlikely Bowser will be fast enough to react to something moving at the speed of sound, so he probably will not teleport in time. Even if he does, Sonic can continue to release the shockwaves until Bowser reappears and continue to hit him until Bowser is able to teleport again. I have already shown how Sonic kicking Bowser’s shell will not damage the shoes or the gems. He drops Sonic’s ability to summon an “Insta-shield," and Sonic’s ability to summon blue blades of energy.


4) Strategy time!


Pro completely concedes to this point.


5) Sonic’s Shoes


Again, Sonic’s gems and/or shoes will not break for reasons stated above. Also, how would Bowser know about Sonic’s shoes? The only way he could know is if Sonic utilized his shoes, and by that time Bowser would already be dead, since Sonic is capable of summoning a thunder shield and slowing down time.


Even if Bowser somehow survived Sonic’s powers, how would he know that the source of the power is the shoes themselves?


And even if he somehow did figure out where the thunder shield and slowing down time abilities came from, he still would not be able to take Sonic’s shoes off. As he reaches down to pull Sonic’s shoes off, Sonic could easily utilize his thunder shield before he does so, causing Bowser to be shocked and allowing him to run away.


Conclusion-


Pro has dropped two of his own arguments, one of my own arguments, and two of Sonic’s abilities (Insta-shield and Sonic Wind). He has also pretty much dropped Bowser’s physical capabilities and is relying heavily upon his lightning and teleportation, but I have already shown how both of these abilities are virtually useless. The only argument that does not include Bowser’s magical abilities is when he says Bowser can grab Sonic. However, remember that if Bowser does this, then Sonic will utilize his yellow gem and call upon his thunder shield. After that, Sonic will become much more serious in the fight and use his full abilities after having such a close call with death, which will ensure him a win, since he can simply bend time to his will.


Well, I’d like to thank my opponent for an excellent debate. I had a lot of fun and hope he did as well.


[1] http://sonic.wikia.com...


[2] http://sonic.wikia.com...


[3] http://concept-mobius.technoguild.com...


Debate Round No. 4
44 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PeacefulChaos 5 years ago
PeacefulChaos
"Con was kinder"

That's not a reason for conduct . . .
Posted by Multi_Pyrocytophage 5 years ago
Multi_Pyrocytophage
Not sure how not using full abilities in the beginning is a conduct point, but ok.
Posted by PeacefulChaos 5 years ago
PeacefulChaos
Well, I can understand that. Sometimes I myself have a hard time voting on debates because both sides did very well.
Posted by Greyparrot 5 years ago
Greyparrot
I just wanted to award one point on a small matter in a close debate.
Posted by Multi_Pyrocytophage 5 years ago
Multi_Pyrocytophage
Although, I suggest people vote on who made the better arguments, although it was probably PeacefulChaos since I had to drop some of my arguments.
Posted by Multi_Pyrocytophage 5 years ago
Multi_Pyrocytophage
Yeah I know. I always knew that when I started this debate, but just wanted to see how hard it is to debate something that I disbelieve in.
Posted by OberHerr 5 years ago
OberHerr
Well, clearly Sonic would win, merely because of his extreme speed.
Posted by Multi_Pyrocytophage 5 years ago
Multi_Pyrocytophage
I must agree. It is his opinion, so we can't do much about it.
Posted by PeacefulChaos 5 years ago
PeacefulChaos
Yes, that's what we are discussing. But then, it is GreyParrot's decision, so we have to wait for him to elaborate further, if he decides to elaborate at all.
Posted by renji_abarai 5 years ago
renji_abarai
Actually, the conuct vote is not right in my opinion.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by renji_abarai 5 years ago
renji_abarai
Multi_PyrocytophagePeacefulChaosTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Sonics speed is very decisive in this battle although bowser had magic. Con was kinder in the beginning of his debates and didn't take full advantage of Sonic's abilitys and still provided a good case. Con obviously had more sources and the quality was goo as well.
Vote Placed by SarcasticIndeed 5 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
Multi_PyrocytophagePeacefulChaosTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con made it clear why Pro's cases are wrong and pointed out many fallacies in his logic. I really enjoyed this debate.
Vote Placed by Greyparrot 5 years ago
Greyparrot
Multi_PyrocytophagePeacefulChaosTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Very close debate, however I will have to deduct a point from Con for assuming the higher speed Sonic would not attempt to outflank or suprise the slower Bowser. This waste of a tactical advantage is not good generalmanship.