The Instigator
Akhenaten
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
NothingSpecial99
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Brain surgeons get paid too much

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
NothingSpecial99
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/20/2015 Category: Health
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 671 times Debate No: 84148
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (1)

 

Akhenaten

Pro

Brain surgeons get paid $10,000 per hour. What the hell is that!

No amount of skill is worth that much money.

Note - Brain surgeons haven't got a clue as to how the brain actually works.
NothingSpecial99

Con

To begin with, you have no source to cite the $10,000 per hour claim. Typically a neurosurgeon's salary is $395,000 starting and will increase up to $589,500. The salary is a match to how much skill and effort is required to become a neurosurgeon. To become one, you have to get a bachelor's degree (4 years of college), followed by medical school (another 4 years), a one-year internship (another year), six to eight years of residency, and take an exam and apply to recieve Board Certification. Imagine all the debt that piles up during those years in college and medical school.

On top of that, neurosurgeons have to spend many hours keeping up with the research. If they wish to specialize in the field, then many more years must be put in to be qualified in this subfield. While performing surgery, some last up to 20 hours or more meaning that neurosurgeons have to have loads of energy meanwhile poking around someone's brain where if they make a mistake can end up killing the patient or disabling him/her for life. Because of such rigorous training and the amount of skill for the job, it seems reasonable to pay them a high salary considering how few of them exist in the United States. 1 in 65,580 people in the US are neurosurgeons which comes to around 4,000 in the US. In addition, there are still vacancies.

With your last comment about neurosureons having no clue as to how the brain works, I say this,

“That which can be
asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” R13; Christopher Hitchens.

http://study.com...
http://work.chron.com...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Debate Round No. 1
Akhenaten

Pro

A brain surgeon is just a glorified plumber who fixes leaks and faults in the brain. They drill holes in your skull and take out tumours without knowing how or why those tumours got there in the first place. Most of the training they receive is unnecessary nonsense which is not really required for what they do. They don't understand that tumours are the result of a bad diet and can mostly be fixed by adjustments to the patients diet. Blockages and brain inflammation can be caused by eating grain, dairy and concentrated sugars.

Doctors are not trained in nutrition, so they wouldn't have a clue what causes tumours and disease in general. They are just a bunch of arrogant monkeys that think they are clever because they got high marks in the Higher School Certificate ATR. Then, they can get into medical school and be cool doctors making bid mega-dollars at the expense of the ignorant public who are gullible enough to believe that doctors have some special knowledge that they don't have. But, alas, doctors haven't got a clue about what causes tumours or disease.

It is just a big game of bluff that doctors pretend to know what disease is and how to fix it. They wear white coats and carry stethoscopes around their necks. Note - Stethoscopes are totally useless devices which tells doctors nothing about a persons overall health and physical condition. If a person has an irregular heart beat it may be a dietary problem - (otherwise the person has been poisoned by some dangerous chemical which is contained in many chemical laden foods which are sold in supermarkets.)
NothingSpecial99

Con

Your plumber analogy is absurd. To more accurate analogy is a plumber who has to fix pipes while the water is running because patients are alive. He/she can't make any spills while doing the repairs analogous to potential blood loss in the brain. On top of that, there can be serious reprecusions if the plumber so much as even make a sratch in the wrong place much like how brain surgeons deal with the brain. Not to mention that repairs to pipes can take 20+ hours to do meanwhile the plumber is very limited in how much rest they can get while still having to be percise and careful with repairs. This is all just poking around the brain in general.

You make a ridiculous claim that brain cancer is caused by a bad diet yet you do not source anything even remotely scientific to back up your claims. Brain cancer happens when the brain cells' DNA is damaged as the result of mutations in the genome. While the sources of these mutations vary, even if a bad diet can be linked to mutations, there are so many other factors that trump what little diet contributes to mutations such as exposure to radiation or carcinogens.

You also claim that brain inflammation is caused by eating grain, dairy and concentrated sugars. You only need to hit yourself in the head really hard with a hammer to realize this is not the case.

If the field of brain surgery is all but a game of bluff, wouldn't there be countless reports of screw ups. Why would people spend all those years in medical school learning a craft which according to you is not supported by science and potentially kill a person and drown in lawsuits and potentially criminal charges?

Note - I highly doubt that neurosurgeons carry stethoscopes on them as its function is highly irrelevant to their profession. If the tool serves no purpose it would just get in the way. Imagine poking around a person's brain with something dangling from your neck swinging all around.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...;
Debate Round No. 2
Akhenaten

Pro

Quote - If the field of brain surgery is all but a game of bluff, wouldn't there be countless reports of screw ups. Why would people spend all those years in medical school learning a craft which according to you is not supported by science and potentially kill a person and drown in lawsuits and potentially criminal charges?

Reply - Doctors bury their mistakes. Dead people don't talk. Doctors are protected by the system. If you try to fight against the system, the system will make every step that you make as difficult as they possibly can. Thus, most people wouldn't even bother to take on the system, because they know that the system is corrupt and is protected by an impenetrable wall of bureaucracy.

Medicine has never been supported by science. Pharmaceutical companies may supply their equipment, but that doesn't mean that the equipment will produce a better outcome than what nature can provide.

Diet can influence the performance and condition of the brain.

http://thepaleodiet.com...
NothingSpecial99

Con

You claim that the "system" makes neurosurgeons above the law, yet you have not provided a case that proves your baseless assertion. If one just googles neurosurgeon lawsuits, he/she can easily find results. Take for example this case below where a person sues a neurosurgeon for operating in the wrong area of the brain.

http://www.stltoday.com...

"Medicine has never been supported by science"
I said it once and I'll say it again:

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens.

While your link proves that diets can affect the brain, you have not proven that bad diets lead to brain cancer and inflammation.

Vote Con!!!!!
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Sam7411// Mod action:Removed<

6 points to Con (Conduct, Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: Totally agree with Con that Pro's argument is made of "baseless assertions" and "arrogant monkeys" doesn't get you conduct points.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The voter doesn't explain sources. (2) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter needs to directly assess specific arguments made by both debaters to come to a decision, and not merely quote 2 words as explanation. (3) Conduct is insufficiently explained. The voter needs to do more than simply quote 2 words as explanation.
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Posted by TheFlyingPham 1 year ago
TheFlyingPham
"Medicine is not backed with science" "MEDICINE IS NOT BACKED WITH SCIENCE" go home people it's over, MEDICINE IS A TYPE OF SCIENCE, for thousands of years people practiced and tested out on not only other people but animals as well to be able to have the medicine we fm have today.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: mc9// Mod action: Removed<

5 points to Pro (Sources, Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: No grammar mistakes or poor conduct. Pro only backed up his claim that diets can effect the brain and did not provide anything else to back up his claims whereas con did and con was the only one to back up the actual resolution with sources and in the first round adequately shows that a neurosurgeons job is actually worth the money they get payed.

[*Reason for removal*] The voter appears to have allocated points to the wrong side, as compared with his RFD.
************************************************************************
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Alright that's better, Ak.
Posted by Akhenaten 1 year ago
Akhenaten
Brain surgery really does costs $10,000 per hour. The surgeon may not get the whole $10,000. It would be divided up to the brain surgeon, occupational therapist, anaesthetist, nurses, assistants, administration and insurance. Reference - http://health.costhelper.com...
Posted by govitz147 1 year ago
govitz147
Oh, and vote for con
Posted by govitz147 1 year ago
govitz147
"A brain surgeon is just a glorified plumber who fixes leaks and faults in the brain. They drill holes in your skull and take out tumours without knowing how or why those tumours got there in the first place. Most of the training they receive is unnecessary nonsense which is not really required for what they do. They don't understand that tumours are the result of a bad diet and can mostly be fixed by adjustments to the patients diet. Blockages and brain inflammation can be caused by eating grain, dairy and concentrated sugars.

Doctors are not trained in nutrition, so they wouldn't have a clue what causes tumours and disease in general. They are just a bunch of arrogant monkeys that think they are clever because they got high marks in the Higher School Certificate ATR. Then, they can get into medical school and be cool doctors making bid mega-dollars at the expense of the ignorant public who are gullible enough to believe that doctors have some special knowledge that they don't have. But, alas, doctors haven't got a clue about what causes tumours or disease.

It is just a big game of bluff that doctors pretend to know what disease is and how to fix it. They wear white coats and carry stethoscopes around their necks. Note - Stethoscopes are totally useless devices which tells doctors nothing about a persons overall health and physical condition. If a person has an irregular heart beat it may be a dietary problem - (otherwise the person has been poisoned by some dangerous chemical which is contained in many chemical laden foods which are sold in supermarkets.)"

@akhetan, Why are you so arrogant. You think the ONLY way to cure a disease is through dieting? No. Maybe if you actually went to a science class and did some research, you would know that that is not the case.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Basically con nailed it.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Considering they have a job with very high skill level and low replaceability, plus all the lives they save, plus the fact that the still have tens of thousands of debt to pay off from medical school, plus the fact that ther pay isn't hourly, it's a salary (which has a 400,000 difference between the start of surgeons and experienced ones, making your number flawed entirely), the salary makes sense.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
AkhenatenNothingSpecial99Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro never meets his BoP. He's required to show that brain surgeons get paid too much, but never even establishes a real amount that these surgeons earn, much less what they should be earning. At best, he introduces doubt in the view that brain surgeons are very important, but that only suggests that they are valued higher by society than they should be, rather than assessing whether or not their monetary value is accurate. Con gives me reason to believe that they need those funds in order to pay back student loans, and that their work is so careful and precise as to warrant a high income. Pro's rebuttals simply assert the opposite, and those ignore Con's far more reliable, explained and quoted sources, not to mention ignoring the fact that Pro carries the BoP. Thus, as Pro failed in his burdens and failed to sufficiently address Con's rebuttals, Con wins on arguments. Sources also go to Con for the above reasons, particularly when Pro's only source is irrelevant to the debate.