The Instigator
Valkrin
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points
The Contender
cagystorm
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Brawl is a better game than Melee.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Valkrin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/14/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 931 times Debate No: 68334
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (2)

 

Valkrin

Con

I wish to debate this topic.

Rules are simple: no trolling, first round is acceptance, rest are for arguing.

Breaking any of these rules results in a full forfeit from the one responsible.
cagystorm

Pro

I accept your debate and I am prepared to convince the readers that Melee was a better game than Brawl
Debate Round No. 1
Valkrin

Con

It seems opponent is unaware of the positions and who is covering which side.
I instigated this debate on the side of Con, meaning that I believed Brawl was NOT a better game than Melee (or Melee was better than Brawl, but the BoP would have been on Pro anyways).

Seeing he has accepted and intends to debate for my side I see no further reason to argue as this could be taken as a concession.

If opponent wishes to have this debate again with the proper roles fulfilled (me as Con and him as Pro), I would be more than happy to have a new one. However, for this debate opponent has conceded and I thank him for his time.
cagystorm

Pro

I will defend Brawl.
Brawl is an amazing game with many more updates to it's gameplay modes. I enjoy the many more maps that Brawl puts out. I also find it nice that you can play with Wii controllers or GameCube controllers.
Debate Round No. 2
Valkrin

Con

I thank opponent for his willingness to continue on! This will just be a 2 round debate, then, removing R1-2 from the debating area.



To start off I'd like to address the style of the debate:
I. "Better"
In a situation like this, "better" would be considered somewhat subjective. As these two games both have good elements and are both individualized in their fighting styles and tastes (i.e. Melee faster than Brawl), and some prefer one game over the over, believing it to be "better". Good games, essentially, have a larger amount of better elements than poor ones, and that's why a majority of the people believe the game to be good. A game could be rated a 10/10 on IGN, have all the critics praising it, whatever, however an individual could say "I don't like this game". As the BoP is implied to be on Pro (as he is trying to prove Brawl is better than Melee and myself that Brawl is not better), we shall keep the word "better" in mind.

Now, let's head straight into the arguments.

1. Much Faster Gameplay
Melee has been renowned for its fast gameplay, and it's part of the reason why it's still popular today. Many people feel more joy in watching/playing a fast-paced, immersing game than watching/playing a game where the majority of it is camping and abusing certain abilities (I'm looking at you, Pit and Meta Knight).

It's a lot more fun for both parties playing the game to be landing equal blows rather than have a single party camp, while the other is on the receiving end. Melee, being faster and more balanced, doesn't have the degree of camping as Brawl (not even close, in fact). Even the faster fall rate contributes to this. With the faster gameplay, Brawl prevents camping and allows for faster, more fun gameplay.

II. Better Competitive Scene
Brawl is essentially overlooked in the competitive community of Smash. In fact, the only reason it's still known is because it's the main force behind Project M, which was community-made. The Melee community is extremely dedicated, seeing as the game itself was created in 2001 and is still going strong. In the meantime, Brawl is really only known due to the community made mod Project M, which is extremely fun and is a hugely improved version of Brawl, taking elements from Melee and implementing it into Brawl characters and maps. They even create some of their own models and skins. But now I'm going off topic.

III. Advanced Mechanics
Some of the advanced mechanics present in Melee were removed from Brawl. Examples of this are wave-dashing (making your character glide for a short time) and L-cancelling (reducing the lag of an aerial landing, such as Link's down air). With these mechanics removed from Brawl, playing competitively has become a huge challenge for previous Melee players, and this topic is one of the main reasons you don't see competitive Brawl.

IV. Characters Returning
Many of the Melee characters such as Mewtwo and Roy have been requested to return in future iterations in the Smash series. Mewtwo is already coming out for SSB4, but Roy, however, is not. Many people have wanted characters such as this to return, and characters in Melee spark the release of many future characters (Marth for Lucina, Marth, Robin, and Ike, Ness for Lucas, Young Link for Toon Link, etc.). Many characters take inspiration from Melee, but the mechanics do not. Overall, even if the cast of characters is improved, many of them take inspiration from Melee characters, and some are simply not fun due to their campy playstyle.

Overall, Melee is superior due to:
Better characters
Advanced mechanics
Better competitive scene
and Character Ideas/Characters Returning

Now over to my opponent.
cagystorm

Pro

Thank you for continuing with the debates!

1. To address your first point I would like to say that the majority of Brawl and Melee gameplay is family gameplay. As much as they are fun games I have not been over to a friends house and played Brawl or Melee. These games have always been played as family game night. This is the case in my family and other families I have played with. I understand that the game Brawl might be annoying because of some of the drag that you might experience, but most families don't notice it. Brawl tends to be 2 seconds slower than Melee on a 30 second timer. That is almost unnoticeable for most families. Another reason that Brawl is slightly slower is because there are so many more additions to Brawl!!! (maps, easier character movement, ect.) I personally played Brawl and Melee quite a bit and I noticed almost no speed difference!!! Is Brawl slower? Yes maybe so, but most people won't notice if they are just having fun.

2. Like I said in my last point is that the competitive scene for and off the smash games is almost non-existent. I have never watched or participated at all in online on Smash bros. Neither has most players (if I am wrong please show me so as I am going off of personal experience).

3. Agreed, but please show the market for competitive online Nintendo games.

4. I played brawl for a long time and never played with either character for quite a while. Not to many people dying over the loss of two when there is a gain of many.

Thank You and if seems I am being subjective I apologize.
Debate Round No. 3
Valkrin

Con

I thank Pro for his responses. And debates are naturally subjective; one is trying to get their side to win. I accept nonetheless :)

Onto the refutations.

Speed.

Overall, I agree. Both games are fun. But overall, Brawl appeals to a more casual audience, and Melee to a more competitive, which is why I think it's the better game. Melee is naturally a LOT faster paced than Brawl. Fox, for instance, has a hard time shine dashing and shine spiking in Brawl, as well as maneuvering quickly throughout the map with his short hops, and pressuring with double lasers. The good thing about the faster paced Melee games as opposed to the slower, seemingly sluggish in comparison Brawl game. Melee promotes fast, close-quarters combat, while the opposite favors range. The problem with this is that the tendency to camp removes fun from the game. Many characters have camping potential include Pit, Samus (only somewhat though), Link (and TL), ZSS, Wolf (Fox and Falco not as much as they're faster and their projectiles do less damage), and Snake. Unfortunately, many of these characters are considered good for their camp potential. This is the difference between Melee and Brawl. In Melee, there are hardly any campy characters (Link, Samus and somewhat Peach are the only ones I can think of), and if they are they're hardly used (Esam's Samus and Armada's Peach are exceptions) due to just that: the camp factor. Faster characters, such as Fox, Captain Falcon, and Shiek perform much better, as they're able to close the gap quickly and highly punish the rest. In Brawl, these characters aren't able to do so as well, as there are more campy characters, which have received buffs. While the slower gameplay may appeal to the more casual people, or the family as a whole, the faster-paced gameplay tends to be more fun, and appeals for those looking for a challenge.

Competitive Scene.

http://smashboards.com...
The above is a link to a SmashBoards forum section, dedicated entirely to tournaments. If you look, you will see there are many Melee tournaments present, even with cash prizes. As well, VGBootcamp regularly streams Melee, PM, and SSB4. In fact, a stream of Melee they did just yesterday received over 30k viewers. this proves that more people love Melee and want to see the competitive scene in action.

Competitive Online Nintendo Games.

Pokemon X and Y had a World Championship a few months ago. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
In fact, many of the Pokemon games have had competitive online tournaments.
As well, the new SSB4 has an online mode, with a For Glory option, which is a competitive match-ranking system.

Characters.

We can assume this point is dropped, seeing as both sides have valid points.

Overall, I believe Pro has failed to uphold his BoP.
I thank Pro for his time and I hope everyone votes wisely.

Thanks :)
cagystorm

Pro

cagystorm forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by UndeniableReality 2 years ago
UndeniableReality
Looking forward to trying the new smash, but I'm skeptical about it living up to melee. We'll see.
How's the online feature? It wasn't worth playing at all on Brawl due to the delay.
Posted by Lulzy 2 years ago
Lulzy
Also, I'll enlighten you on Smash 4. As far as gameplay goes, it's a mix between Melee and Brawl. Falco can now short hop double laser, instead of short hop triple laser. Dash dancing is still available, but it's pretty hard. Moves can combo into other moves. (Fox is a great example.) The game favors defensive play slightly, but overall it can be aggressive. Falling speed is more Meleeesque then Brawlesque. Marth still has the tipper. For Glory mode is a godsend.
Posted by Lulzy 2 years ago
Lulzy
I have an interesting bit of information that could help the Con, but since it benefits one side, I'll just mention it at the end of the debate of it isn't brought up here.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
From what I've heard it is relatively good, but somewhat slower, but fortunately not as slow and campy as Brawl.
Posted by UndeniableReality 2 years ago
UndeniableReality
At least you both agree melee is better. I haven't tried the new one. I hope it's as good as melee.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
Good enthusiasm, I like that :)
Posted by cagystorm 2 years ago
cagystorm
let us continue then!!!
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
If you wish to defend Brawl I'll continue.
Posted by cagystorm 2 years ago
cagystorm
Ok yes go ahead with another debate.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
I shall do another debate then. Would you be willing to accept?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Hylian_3000 2 years ago
Hylian_3000
ValkrincagystormTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 2 years ago
Paleophyte
ValkrincagystormTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con made good arguments. Pro forfeited the final round.