The Instigator
Tinker4
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
freedomsquared
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

Brett Favre is the best quarterback of all time in the NFL.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/2/2011 Category: Technology
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,406 times Debate No: 17746
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (3)

 

Tinker4

Pro

Brett Favre is the best quarterback of all time in the NFL. Favre is an 11-timer Pro Bowler, a three-time NFL MVP, a Super Bowl Champion, and a five-time NFC Player of the Year.
freedomsquared

Con

I look forward to what should be a fun and interesting debate.

Here's a list of some other Favre records you may not be aware of:
-most interceptions thrown (336)
-most times sacked (525)
- most fumbles (166)
- most playoff losses (11)
- most playoff interceptions (30)
[1]
So my opponent believes that the Quarterback the excels at giving the other team the ball (whether through turnovers or failed 3rd down conversions on a sack) is the best quarterback ever.

C1: Favre is Inefficient

All of the "positive" records Brett Favre holds are more due to his longevity (20 seasons) rather than having consistently good games. The main NFL efficiency records and Brett Favre's rankings in them are[2]:
- passer rating (20th)
- passing yards/game (6th)
- yards/ pass att (61st)
- yards/ pass completion (194th)
- completion % (17th)
- pass TD% (53rd)

My opponent argues that Favre is the best because he thinks that Favre is the best-quality quarterback there has ever been. However, as I have just shown, quantity is much more a factor in Favre's stats than quantity. The only stat he was respectable in (passing yards/game) is only due to the fact that he has the most passing attempts of any quarterback. In fact, the main measurement of a good passer (passer rating a.k.a. QB Rating) shows that there are 19 better quarterbacks out there.

Favre does not have records from consistent, quality performance. Rather, he has records from overly prolonged, average performance.


C2: Favre is Selfish

Many, myself included, would've once argued that Favre is a prime example of a team player. However, the events of the last few years have shown Favre for what he really is, a selfish brat. He waffled for years over whether or not to retire, before finally breaking the news to the whole football world in a tear-jerking press conference. The Packers, accepting the inevitable, moved on and prepared for a season without Favre. But then those late July winds kicked up and Ol' Brett started feeling a bit nostalgiac and wanted to come back to his old team. The Packers were willing to allow him back on the team, so long as Brett would compete for a starting job. This is completely understandable considering that Favre had been degrading for years and that he was the sole reason they had lost an NFC championship game the previous year when they should've went to the Super Bowl (by, shockingly, throwing an interception). Favre wanted everything given to him though (after all, who were the Packers to ask that he actually compete to prove he was the best QB on the team), and so started his "journeyman" years.

Favre started off pretty well with the Jets, but then caved in at the end of the season. His last five games Favre threw for a dreadful 2 TD's, 9 Int's [3]. With yet another disappointing end to a season, Favre announced his retirement. However, this late July winds started kicking up again and Favre put himself back on the market to be courted by the Vikings. Still, Favre was a "legend", so naturally he waited for the arduous, difficult training camp to be almost completed before joining the Vikings. This season went much better Favre, climaxing in an NFC championship game. However, with the win in reach, Favre pulled out his whole "how can I lose this" mentality and found a way to end the Vikings' Super Bowl aspirations. With the win in reach (or at the very least overtime), Favre rolled out with less than a minute to go in the fourth quarter against the eventual Super Bowl Champion Saints. He then threw across the field (something even the least competent of college QB's could tell you not to do) towards his wide receiver. Shockingly, it was intercepted and the Saints won the game by scoring shortly after. He one again retired...yadda yadda yadda... late July winds... yadda yadda yadda... wait for training camp to be over because he's a "legend." Thus began the final (hopefully) and worst season of Favre's career, marked by interceptions, loss, injuries, and more losses and interceptions.

Favre's complete disregard for his teammates (skipping training camp, believing he was more important than the team) led to the destruction of two Vikings seasons, one Jets season, the firing of two head coaches (Erik Mangini and Brad Childress, who had the misfortune of trusting in Favre), and the loss of all the respect fans (especially Packers' fans) had gained for him over the years.


C3: Multipe QB's are better than Favre (right now)


1. Peyton Manning (all of this done in 7 less seasons than Favre)[4]

-4 MVP's
-11 time Pro Bowl selection
- 2 Super Bowl Appearances, 1 Super Bowl Victory, 1 Super Bowl MVP award
- 3rd all-time passing yards
- 3rd all-time passing TD's

Efficiency-wise:[2]
- passer rating (6th)
- passing yards/game (1st)
- yards/ pass att (19th)
- completion % (4th)
- pass TD% (25th)

Manning is clearly superior in all efficiency rankings, and also very high in all-time rankings. The key fact here is that Manning has played 7 less seasons than Favre. According to my calculations (using an average TD's/season for Manning's career)[5], Manning will surpass Favre's TD record 3 and a half seasons from now, or in other words, almost 5 seasons faster than Favre did it! Manning would also only have around 250 Int's at this time, or in other words, over 100 less than Favre! It will also only take 4 seasons for Manning to surpass Favre in throwing yards.

To recap, Manning beats Favre in everything based on passing effiency, and all the (positive) records Favre does have due to his career longevity will be overcome by Manning in at least 4 less seasons than it took Favre. Did I also mention that Manning isn't a selfish brat and that he took less money than his team offered him in a contract so they could keep more people on the team.


2. Tom Brady (11 less seasons than Favre)[6]

-2 MVP's
-4 Super Bowl Appearances, 3 Super Bowl Victories, 2 Super Bowl MVP Awards
- 6 Pro-bowl selections

Efficiency-wise:[2]
- passer rating (5th)
- passing yards/game (5th)
- yards/ pass att (31st)
- completion % (10th)
- pass TD% (25th)

Other (excerpt): Brady holds numerous regular season and postseason records, including: most touchdown passes in a regular season (50); highest touchdown-to-interception ratio in a single season (9:1); highest single-game completion percentage, regular season or postseason (26/28, 92.9%); most consecutive pass attempts without an interception (339, still active); most consecutive regular-season home wins (28, still active); highest winning percentage of any quarterback ever during his first 100 starts (76 wins); most completions in one Super Bowl (32); and the longest streak of games with 3 or more touchdown passes (10 games). most career completions in Super Bowl history (100); Brady is the fourth-fastest player to reach 200 career passing touchdowns (116 games). He is the first quarterback in NFL history to have reached said mark with under 100 career interceptions (he had 88 interceptions).[6]


Throw in there 3 Super Bowl Rings with no weapons to throw to (aka horrible WR core), and Brady's stats only become more impressive. He also took less money early on in his career so the team could build around him.


Conclusion:

The stats alone speak for themselves on who is the greatest QB of all-time. In my contentions, I did not even bring up the all-time greats such as Dan Marino and Joe Montana because I believe that Favre was not even the best QB of his era. That said, I eagerly await my opponent's response and look forward to continuing this debate.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...;
[2] http://www.pro-football-reference.com...;
[3] http://www.nfl.com...;
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...;
[5] http://www.nfl.com...;
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org...;
Debate Round No. 1
Tinker4

Pro

Thank you for accepting my debate.

First off, I would like to point out that my opponent commented in the comments section, "Many years ago, before the dark times (Favre's disgraceful discharge from the Packers), I debated this same topic as PRO. I can't wait to do this debate on this opposite side." Favre is the same QB that he was before his "Disgraceful discharge from the Packers" so clearly you are just an upset, old fan.

Favre ,without a doubt, has the most impressive achievements out of any other quarterback in history. He holds every single volume passing number in NFL history: completions, attempts, yards, TDs and even INTs. Just a mere few of those achievements are: ^ "Favre throws TD No. 500 / Favre hits 70,000 yards". NFL.com. October 11, 2010. Retrieved
^ "Most Pro Bowls, By Position". Packers.com. December 20, 2006. Archived from the original on June 25, 2007. Retrieved December 20, 2006. ^ "All-Time Leaders QB Pass Yards". Pro Football Reference. Retrieved September 30, 2010.
^ "All-Time Leaders QB Pass Touchdowns". Pro Football Reference. Retrieved September 30, 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org... You may say I'm forgetting some of those, but maybe you're forgetting some of these. Also Favre has been ranked #1 QB of all time on many sites including http://bleacherreport.com...
freedomsquared

Con

I appreciate your timely response.

While I may be an old fan, I am in no way "upset" with Favre. Favre's departure from the Packers was the best thing for the team (as evidenced by our recent Super Bowl victory). What I meant by my comment was that because I was such a huge Packer fan, I saw Favre through a veiled gaze. Now that the veil has been removed, I can see him completely and without my previous bias. Did I mention that I lost that debate?

<<Favre ,without a doubt, has the most impressive achievements out of any other quarterback in history. He holds every single volume passing number in NFL history: completions, attempts, yards, TDs and even INTs.>>

I know we've been over this, but volume does not equal quantity. If Favre throws 50 passes and Peyton Manning throws 10, I'd be willing to bet Favre would be able to get more completions than Manning. However, 11 out of 50 is in no way better than 10 out of 10. As I have already said, just because someone has played for a long time does not make them the best QB of all-time. To illustrate that quantity does not equal greatness:

Quarterback A:
-2509 yards
-11 TD's

Quarterback B:
-2478 yards
-16 TD's

At first glance, these QB's seem pretty equal. You may think B is a little better than A because of the extra TD passes. However, if you add in the fact that A also threw for 19 Int's and that A played 13 games while B only played 8, the decision gets a bit easier. Quarterback A is Brett Favre[1], Quarterback B is the first half of the season for Peyton Manning [2].


<<You may say I'm forgetting some of those, but maybe you're forgetting some of these. Also Favre has been ranked #1 QB of all time on many sites including http://bleacherreport.com...;

Using my opponent's own website, they have Peyton Manning ranked at #2 but with the qualitative "for now"[3].


My opponent hasn't refuted any of my previous contentions and has simply restated the same statistics in a more elaborate form. In addition to my previous contentions, I would like to add one more.

C4: QBR Rating

The Total Quarterback Rating (QBR) came out with great fanfare on ESPN just last Friday night. It is a more complete and comprehensive ranking system for QB's. This list here has the rankings of QB's for the last 3 years: http://espn.go.com.... Even Favre's 2009 season, what many called a career season for him, only has him ranked as 31st. That is behind the 3 Peyton Manning seasons, the 2 Tom Brady seasons (injured '08 season), and multiple other QB's such as Vince Young, Jay Cutler, and Chad Pennington. If you throw in Favre's last season, well, the only starting QB to rank worse was the Panther's Jimmy Clausen [4].


My opponent has not brought up any new arguments nor attempted to refute any of mine, so there is nothing left to debate in this round. I hope that PRO will respond to my contentions in the next round.

[1] http://www.nfl.com...
[2] http://www.nfl.com...;
[3] http://bleacherreport.com...;
[4] http://jockpost.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
Tinker4

Pro

Tinker4 forfeited this round.
freedomsquared

Con

Well, it is unfortunate that my opponent was not able to post this round. Seeing that he has left many of my contentions unrefuted, and I have refuted all of his contentinos, I strongly urge you to vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by freedomsquared 5 years ago
freedomsquared
Many years ago, before the dark times (Favre's disgraceful discharge from the Packers), I debated this same topic as PRO. I can't wait to do this debate on this opposite side.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Tinker4freedomsquaredTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by mongoose 5 years ago
mongoose
Tinker4freedomsquaredTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit
Vote Placed by mongeese 5 years ago
mongeese
Tinker4freedomsquaredTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Overwhelming stats in favor of Con, plus a forfeit.