The Instigator
RaveScratch
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
IX
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Bronies Need To Stop Saying That Cloppers Are th "Bad Part" of The Fandom

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/15/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,758 times Debate No: 32520
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

RaveScratch

Pro

Structure: Round 1 will be me and my opponent stating our facts and supporting ideas. Round 2 will be us bickering about each others points finding problems with each others ideas stated in Round 1. Round 3 will be us giving our final argument.

Note: I'm making this because I want to see the mind-set behind bronies that say cloppers are the "bad part" of the fandom.

Our Motto:
Bronies' motto is to "love and tolerate" this means no matter what someone does or who they are we will accept them. This means that we shouldn't exclude cloppers from the rest of us simply because they do something that supposedly makes us look bad.

Think About Our Problems:
Bronies are constantly struck down because of deviation, and we don't like this. So why should we do this to our fellow brony. It's like what Babs Seed did in "One Bad Apple." We don't want to be picked on about the aspect of clopping so we turn around and say it's bad. It's just us being weak.

Strength in Numbers:
Haters have done something smart. They've made us split the brony fandom into different parts, including the bronies that clop. If we are in parts then we can be easily discouraged because of lack of support from our fellow bronies, if we stay together and stop fighting then we can stand tall and be proud.
IX

Con

Introduction

Many thanks to RaveScratch for starting this debate. As an occasional lurker on My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic-themed websites, I have noticed many references to the act of "clopping," which I trust a simple google search will suffice to elucidate for nearly everyone. As it is not direcly relevant to the resolution (which implicitly assumes prior knowledge of the group known as "cloppers") in that it is of no great importance which specific groups are included under the definition, due to the fact that the resolution is merely dealing with the relative aspects of referring to a specific group as "bad." If my opponent wishes to clarify during their next round, they may do so, or in the comments section.

As an additional point of clarification: I have never identified myself with the term "brony," but as I can genuinely appreciate (and do admire) certain aspects of the show My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (hereafter abbreviated to MLP:FiM, MLP, or FiM), so I personally consider myself qualified to debate this. Now without further ado, my outline and brief refutations! (It was noted in the comments that responses were allowed in this speech. Apologies if RaveScratch's comment was not meant in such a way)

Responses

"Our Motto:
Bronies' motto is to 'love and tolerate' this means no matter what someone does or who they are we will accept them . . ."

I challenge my opponents' citations (or lack thereof) on this. There is no "official Brony motto," (apologies in advance for intermittent capitalization of "Brony"), and thus my opponent cannot lay claim to whatever the "official motto" says, or especially means. As counterevidence, I would introduce a blog post [1], in which the author notes "You’d think, from all the play that “love and tolerance” gets among fans trying to explain the appeal, that it’s a catchphrase that shows up everywhere, in episode after episode, . . . . The word tolerance never even occurs anywhere in any episode script." I could cite chapter and verse from this blog. It basically writes my entire debate for me, with several well-reasoned arguments. I encourage everyone to read it. For the sake of character limits, additional responses will be constrained to the following rounds.

"Think About Our Problems:
Bronies are constantly struck down because of deviation . . . . So why should we do this to our fellow brony. . . .
"

Once again, my opponent is providing reasoning without a shred of evidence; rhetoric without any justification. I'll admit, my opponent's taglines are very snappy (one might say glib, but I must remain civil now...), and the show reference was well-played. But my opponent hardly speaks for all fans of FiM when he/she argues that "we don't want to be picked on about the aspect of clopping." As counterevidence I introduce this study, entitled Survey of the Brony Subculture [2], which found that only 13.14% of "bronies" surveyed identified themselves as sexually attracted to characters in the show. Only about 19.05% of the study's respondents said they enjoyed sexually explicit MLP materials because they found it "sexually stimulating." In contrast, nearly 40% of the population "does not think it is right." It's not a question of "beating down" on members of the "brony" subculture. It is merely a question of expressing one's own beliefs--the method, however "mean" or negative, is irrelevant.

I'd like to call quick attention to the semantics of the resolution: it uses the word "need" instead of "should" or a similar word. Thus, my opponent needs to provide an overriding reason (such as suicides, trauma, etc.) to suspend members of the subculture's right to protest what they feel is immoral and wrong.

"Strength in Numbers:
Haters have done something smart. They've made us split the brony fandom into different parts . . . . if we are in parts then we can be easily discouraged . . . ."

This is not an overriding reason to force people not to say that "cloppers" are "the bad part" of the MLP fandom. Furthermore, this statement is factually incorrect. Based on previous evidence from [2], we can see that there are several sub-subcultures, if I may, within the "Brony" community. For example, there is the "clopper"/"non-clopper" divide my opponent mentioned. This issue has been noted to be "the most polarizing issue within the brony fandom," but "it should be noted that the statistics of [Pornographic Content] opinions do not differ greatly from those of grimdark." I challenge my opponent's rationale in this case, as it does not provide any reasoning why sub-subcultures should not exist (aside from "we can be easily discouraged," which carries no real value to this debate). Furthermore, just as a minor issue: according to the study, approximately 50% of respondents "would volunteer the info that they are a brony offline, given the correct conditions. A further 42% would admit to being a brony offline, but would not volunteer the info." As we can see, "Bronies" are perfectly "tall and proud" about their position already, further degrading the purported value of my opponent's point.

Now, since I've blown nearly all my characters on my refutations, I'll probably only challenge my opponent with one contention and one overriding challenge:

Contention One: Bronies, on a whole, do NOT call "cloppers" the "bad part" of the MLP fandom

*Please note: Pro has the Burden of Proof, so this argument is not strictly necessary*

According to [2], only 15.78% of "Bronies" agreed with the statment: "I do not enjoy [Pornographic Content], I do not think it is right, and I do not tolerate its existence." Every single other statment included the implication, therefore, that the respondent tolerated its existence. Thus, almost 85% of "Bronies" do not believe that pornographic content created as part of the fandom is "the bad part." There is no requirement for them to. Nor do they have any requirement not to, however.

UNLESS PRO CAN PROVE THAT (a) Bronies on a whole DO refer to "cloppers" as "the bad part" of the MLP fandom AND THAT (b) Bronies have an overriding requirement to NOT do so, THEN MY OPPONENT WILL HAVE NOT SUSTAINED AND FULFILLED THE BURDEN OF PROOF, AND YOU, THE AUDIENCE, MUST THEN VOTE CON.

Some notes about evidence
:

Due to the fact that there are few documented "Brony Studies" (besides the aforementioned one and "The Brony Study," which may be cited later), it is extremely difficult to obtain evidence for this debate. Please grant my opponent some leeway in this (and I too, should I need it), but remember that at least SOME evidence should be obtainable, and therefore no statement without proper justification merits much of anything in this round.

Some notes about responses:

I trust my opponent will make logic- or evidence-based responses to each and every one of my points in their second round. I will endeavor to do the same. Please note, points that aren't responded to by the third round are effectively "dropped arguments" (as it is unfair for me to respond ONLY in the third round, for obvious reasons).

Some notes about timing:

I apologize in advance if I take a long time to type my responses/arguments. I place a lot of effort in ensuring accuracy, and am (almost) constantly bogged down with work. Feel free to give the Conduct point to my opponent if you believe that my (potentially) long pauses are uncivil.

Some notes about notes:

Thanks, once again, to RaveScratch for creating this. I know personally that InfinityXanadu, Arcanist Ascendant, and IncoherentOrange of FIMFiction [dot] net will be paying especial attention to this (props if you can guess which is meeee!), and I wish for a wonderful, intelligent debate.

Citations:
[1]: http://www.roundstable.com...
[2]: http://www.scribd.com...;

Thanks once more!
~IX
Debate Round No. 1
RaveScratch

Pro

Introduction:

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this argument and for giving quite intelligible responses. I would like to apologize for my lack of evidence and short responses. Lastly, my opponent says, "feel free to give the Conduct point to my opponent if you believe that my (potentially) long pauses are uncivil." I would like the audience to disregard this because debaters should be given all the time they need and not be penalized for it.

Our Motto:


My opponent says that the work "tolerance" is not in the show, this is true, but do we not learn to accept people for who they are and what they do in many of the episodes, such as "Look Before You Sleep." The term "love and tolerate" basically means to do just that. Also, "love and tolerate" is one of the first and most common memes. For these reasons, I would think that the term would have some ground as a motto of the bronies.

Think About Our Problems:

When I said, "we don't want to be picked on about the aspect of clopping," I was saying that haters/anti-bronies usually pick on the entire brony community because a few of us clop. I have seen bronies talk down to other bronies also being rude about "clopping." [1] Also, I didn't mean to say that the entirety, or even most of it, were mean. I was simply targeting the few that do.

As for the part about needing to provide reasons that we should "suspend members of the subculture's right to protest what they feel is immoral and wrong." I would think that constant hate about something we do would be bullying which, as we should all know, does cause suicides, trauma, et cetera.

Strength in Numbers:

As I said in earlier, being mean towards someone for the fact of being a clopper should be considered as cyber bullying, this is a serious issue that I believe should suffice for reasoning to stop. Also, my opponent says that in total 92% percent of people would admit that they're a brony offline, but what about that 8%. This may not be a lot, but it's still there and we should, in my opinion, try and make this percentage fell comfortable. I'd like to add though that there may be a huge percentage of people that would say they're a brony, but what percent of cloppers would admit to clopping?

"Bronies, on a whole, do NOT call "cloppers" the "bad part" of the MLP fandom"

As I said earlier in this response, I didn't mean to make my opponent or anyone else believe that all bronies do, just some of them.

Note:
My opponent says that I had to prove two things: "(a) Bronies on a whole DO refer to "cloppers" as "the bad part" of the MLPfindium AND THAT (b) Bronies have an overriding requirement to NOT do so," which I think I have explained (a) enough and have given reasoning behind (b).

Citations:
[1] http://thedangerousideas.blogspot.com...
IX

Con

IX forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
RaveScratch

Pro

RaveScratch forfeited this round.
IX

Con

IX forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by RaveScratch 4 years ago
RaveScratch
I will be forfeiting round 3 because my opponent seems to have disappeared. If he comes back on round 3 and wants to continue I will create a new debate so we can continue.
Posted by RaveScratch 4 years ago
RaveScratch
Anyone know where my opponent went? :/
Posted by Beginner 4 years ago
Beginner
http://www.debate.org...

:)

Another indication of your being InfinityXanadu (and the reason I chose this option) is your DDO avatar's initials:
IX - Infinity Xanadu
Posted by IX 4 years ago
IX
@Beginner

No, I'm OBVIOUSLY IncoherentOrange (because he and Arc. Asc. OBVIOUSLY don't have accounts on here yet)
Posted by Beginner 4 years ago
Beginner
InfinityXanadu
Posted by RaveScratch 4 years ago
RaveScratch
yep
Posted by MassiveDump 4 years ago
MassiveDump
If I accepted this, could I also refute your arguments first round?
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