The Instigator
JustCallMeTarzan
Pro (for)
Winning
95 Points
The Contender
SeekandDestroy
Con (against)
Losing
83 Points

By a Biblical Body Count, Satan is More Moral than God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/16/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 11,855 times Debate No: 6552
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (90)
Votes (28)

 

JustCallMeTarzan

Pro

The proposition on offer is that according to a body count derived from the time period over which the Bible gives a history, Satan has killed far fewer people and is thus more moral than God.

**************************

According to: ( http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com... ) God has killed some 2,301,427 people. According to a count here: ( http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com... ) Satan has killed only 10 people that God shares at least some responsibility for ( Job's 3 daughters and 7 sons).

Thus, it is plain to see that by a Biblical body count, Satan is more moral than God.

AFFIRMED.
SeekandDestroy

Con

Satan cannot be more moral than god because of his direct intentions to harm people. How can Satan be more moral than god when he directly is a creation of god! We are no better than those who create us! And Satan does not have the direct ability to harm us because god made it this way! If you'll recall in Job Satan tells god that Job is only faithful because he has not been physically hurt and then Satan asks god for the permission to harm him and god says yes but don't kill him. So Satan gives Job boils and such. But for your argument that god has killed more than Satan this is true but it is his right and those who are not right in the sight of the lord will be destroyed! Satan himself tried to fight god and that is how he wound up in hell. The bible also clearly states that Satan will try to deceive and and manipulate to get as many as he can in hell with him. God is more moral and just because that is his purpose. As for Job and his family they were all resurrected and Job healed and PROSPERED past his one hundreds in age!!!!
Debate Round No. 1
JustCallMeTarzan

Pro

>> "Satan cannot be more moral than god because of his direct intentions to harm people. "

Intentions are not the standard of review - a Biblical Body Count is.

>> "How can Satan be more moral than god when he directly is a creation of god! We are no better than those who create us! "

False - It is easy to conceive of a moral God that creates a moral being with free will (that subsequently becomes immoral), and then this moral God commits immoral acts. If I recall correctly, Satan fell from grace before the timeline of the Bible begins, so this is a perfectly plausible. Judging by the Bible's body count, God has committed more immoral acts than Satan.

>> "If you'll recall in Job Satan tells god that Job is only faithful because he has not been physically hurt and then Satan asks god for the permission to harm him and god says yes but don't kill him."

Our wonderfully moral God grants Satan permission to harm others so he can make a point. Great.

>> "Satan himself tried to fight god and that is how he wound up in hell. The bible also clearly states that Satan will try to deceive and and manipulate to get as many as he can in hell with him."

Wonderful. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about how many people God killed compared to how many Satan killed in the Bible.

>> "God is more moral and just because that is his purpose."

That's circular reasoning. God is moral because it is his purpose to be moral. Uncompelling. That's like saying "My coke can is a coke can because it's purpose is to be a coke can."

>> "As for Job and his family they were all resurrected and Job healed and PROSPERED past his one hundreds in age!!!!"

Wonderful - more ammunition for my argument. I shall apply this to the count.

*************************************

The current body count stands at:

God: 2,301,427
Satan: 0

According to my opponent, God raised the people Satan killed, making the contrast even clearer.

I'd also like to call attention to this point that my opponent makes:

>> "But for your argument that god has killed more than Satan this is true but it is his right and those who are not right in the sight of the lord will be destroyed!"

It seems he is of the opinion that an omnibenevolent God has the right to commit immoral acts. Furthermore, he has conceded the notion that the Biblical Body Count delivers God as having killed far more people than Satan.

If killing people is immoral, then God is more immoral than Satan by a Biblical Body Count.

AFFIRMED
SeekandDestroy

Con

I will start by giving the definition of moral
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

What you call circular reasoning is simply giving you a chance to use sarcasm to embarrass me with your coke can remark. God never says killing is wrong or immoral he says don't do it because VENGANCE is his. If god was immoral why would he threaten to punish those who commit murder in cold blood? Why would he threaten to punish thieves? Or rapists? Satan encourages the acts that will get them punished by god. Satan is the king of hell and god tells him one day he will throw Satan into the fire with all of Satan's followers. If Satan was so moral why would he sentence men to their doom to make them suffer for all eternity in a fiery prison? God however gives us hope of following his laws we will dwell and prosper in a place that we will forever be happy. Satan makes the corrupt and the corrupt punish the righteous opposed to god who destroys the corrupt to protect the just. If one man will kill a million but knowing this you commit murder and kill him have you not saved millions from death and emotional torment? God does what is right Satan is there to corrupt that which is good. I will tell you that your argument was solely based on death caused by the greater power but the main focus was that Satan was more moral than god. Which is clearly wrong Satan simply does not have the means to harm people physically or even more would be dead.
Debate Round No. 2
JustCallMeTarzan

Pro

I suppose my opponent's definition of moral will work... Again, we are back to the notion of whether or not killing people is right or wrong. It is clearly wrong, so my opponent cannot get off the hook by stating that killing people is moral only when God does it. That simply sounds silly.

Responses:

>> "What you call circular reasoning is simply giving you a chance to use sarcasm to embarrass me with your coke can remark."

Your comment about God being moral because his purpose is to be moral does not need my help with a coke can to be embarrassing.

>> "God never says killing is wrong or immoral he says don't do it because VENGANCE is his."

Was there some part of "Thou shalt not kill" that you didn't understand? And if vengeance is God's alone, doesn't that indicate that it's morally wrong according to God for man to take revenge on man? Furthermore, most of God's killings are not revenge - they are simply wanton murder and disregard for human life.

>> "If Satan was so moral why would he sentence men to their doom to make them suffer for all eternity in a fiery prison?"

Two problems here - first, I never said that Satan was moral - just that he was more moral than God. And furthermore, it is not Satan that condemns people to hell - judgment is reserved for God. GOD sends people to hell, not Satan.

>> "God however gives us hope of following his laws we will dwell and prosper in a place that we will forever be happy."

Considering some of God's laws include taking the women of conquered nations for your harem, keeping slaves, and killing homosexuals, this doesn't seem like such a moral God...

>> "If one man will kill a million but knowing this you commit murder and kill him have you not saved millions from death and emotional torment?"

Well this would definitely be an example of a moral action. However, God spends a good deal of time smiting babies... who are fairly unlikely to go kill a million people. God smites with wanton disregard, not just the evil ones.

>> "I will tell you that your argument was solely based on death caused by the greater power but the main focus was that Satan was more moral than god. Which is clearly wrong Satan simply does not have the means to harm people physically or even more would be dead."

My opponent contends that my argument is incorrect because Satan doesn't have the means to physically harm people, even though he is capable of possessing them with demons, and in the book of Job, kills 10 people. Seems to me there is a problem with his line of reasoning.

**********************************************************

The body count still stands:

God: 2,301,427
Satan: 0

If killing people is immoral, then God is more immoral than Satan by a Biblical Body Count.

AFFIRMED
SeekandDestroy

Con

The argument is not solely based upon the body count but the morality of God and Satan. God is not some evil dictator like you believe Satan started up in heaven and cast down for betraying God. God allowed Satan to betray him BECAUSE OF THE FREE WILL given to Satan. As with your argument with the baby, what has the baby done significant in the world? I know you're thinking ohhh the baby so harmless so helpless but that baby hasn't done anything wrong and gets to go to heaven without living through the world that is torment. How many people has Satan created? NONE so where does Satan get the right to corrupt innocent men? Again free will for all men and creatures. Satan would not want to kill any of his human servants anyway because with one corrupted man he can corrupt even MORE!!! He wants to create as much evil as possible and thus the more evil of man the more inhabited of hell. The path to heaven narrow and that gates of hell broad. How many people do you think were killed by the corrupted human servants of Satan? It is beyond counting the sinners of Satan. You are right Satan has killed fewer of man instead he tried to kill angels and God and rule over men who are weak and easily corrupted. Satan has lied and poisoned was it not Satan who lied to Eve as the snake? Was it not through Eve that Adam was cast out from his paradise? Satan knows the difference between right and wrong here you are correct but Satan deliberately chooses wrong.

Great debate by the way.
Debate Round No. 3
90 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Lexicaholic 7 years ago
Lexicaholic
An unusual RFD (for me):

All points to Pro. What the heck, Con? The whole resolution is that, considering biblical body count (alone), Satan is more moral. Who cares about the why of that body count? You need to present evidence that Satan has killed more people, or that God's kills were really Satan's, not that God had a better reason for his *massive* kill list whereas Satan had no excuse for his paltry kills.

And seriously ... I would not thank God if he killed my family and gave me a new one. I would curse such an unholy B****** with my last breath. Job was never given his old family back. He was given a new one. Because back then, a family was treated like property, and wouldn't you know it, property can be replaced.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
This tie needs to be broken.
Posted by Justinisthecrazy 7 years ago
Justinisthecrazy
Indeed
Posted by Lunar_Daze 7 years ago
Lunar_Daze
Yeah, I've always been confused by the 'benevolent' God, but he brings a sword.....and causes harm and inflicts pain in his followers.
Posted by SeekandDestroy 7 years ago
SeekandDestroy
Give in to the dark side? Im already there and its not so bad.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Listen to the video, my good SeekAndDestroy. Listen to the video.
Posted by jason_hendirx 8 years ago
jason_hendirx
>I think you believe in him but something happened to make you angry and lose faith i have very little faith in god also

Give IN to the dark side, SeekandDestroy
Posted by SeekandDestroy 8 years ago
SeekandDestroy
hmm.... I may not be as old as you two or expierienced what you guys have but what i do know that a time comes when you hate something so much you have no desire to believe in it. What happened to you tarzan? This hate is consuming you. I have seen your arguments and you struggle to believe in god but more you are angry at him and it seems like you wish to challange him. I think you believe in him but something happened to make you angry and lose faith i have very little faith in god also but i believe that when the day comes i will understand why the things that have happened to me occured and i will forgive him. But what about you?
Posted by jason_hendirx 8 years ago
jason_hendirx
F <-> Fox News.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 8 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
>> "Correct. Suddenly you start thinking correctly about life. (((X->A)<->D)v~F)"

Care to explain?
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