The Instigator
deever
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
sakskidz
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Cal Ripken Jr. is not a top 50 all time MLB player

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
deever
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/4/2013 Category: Sports
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,192 times Debate No: 34503
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

deever

Pro

Cal Ripken Jr. is not a top 50 all time MLB player. I feel that Ripken is vastly over rated. Yes, he did play in 2,632 straight games and he did hit 431 home runs, but he is not a top 50 all time MLB player. In order to accept this debate, there must be a few requirements.

1) How do you define top 50?
I want this debate to be mainly over stats and not over how vital a player is to his team. So, while being "more valuable" counts, make your main argument about stats. Also, the all time list does not include Negro League Players and other countires besides the USA.

2) Please be civil.
No cursing please.

3) Actually know about this topic.
I want my opponent to actually know about this topic, so if you do not know about Cal Ripken Jr. or about baseball, please don't accept.

Thank You.
sakskidz

Con

Award / Honor

Time(s)

Date(s)

American League All-Star 19 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001
American League Silver Slugger Award (SS) 8 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994
American League Most Valuable Player 2 1983, 1991
MLB All-Star Game Most Valuable Player 2 1991, 2001
American League Gold Glove Award (SS) 2 1991, 1992
American League Rookie of the Year 1 1982
Roberto Clemente Award 1 1992
Lou Gehrig Memorial Award 1 1992
Sports Illustrated magazine's "Sportsman of the Year" 1 1995
Associated Press "Athlete of the Year" 1 1995
The Sporting News' "Sportsman of the Year" 1 1995
Commissioner's Historic Achievement Award 1 2001

Records and honors [edit]
1999: Ranked Number 78 on The Sporting News' list of the 100 Greatest Baseball Players[45]
1999: Elected to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.
Beat Lou Gehrig's Consecutive Games Streak
2001: Ranked third greatest shortstop all-time in the The New Bill James Historical Abstract.
2001: Uniform number (8) retired by the Baltimore Orioles
2007: Elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame by 98.53 percent of voters. The highest percentage of votes ever for a position player, as well as third highest overall.
2007: Inducted to the Baseball Hall of Fame on July 29 with the San Diego Padres' great Tony Gwynn in front of a record crowd of 75,000 people
Most consecutive games played at 2,632
Most consecutive innings played at 8,243 (World record until 2005, current MLB record)
Most grounded into double plays at 350
Most home runs by a shortstop at 345
Most double plays by a shortstop, American League, at 1,682
All-time leader in MLB All-Star fan balloting (36,123,483)[46]
Most American League, MLB All-Star team selections (19) " 1983"2001[47]
Most MLB All-Star Game appearances at shortstop (15) " 1983"1996, 2001
Most consecutive MLB All-Star Game starts (17)[48]
Most plate appearances by one player in one game at 15 (Triple-A game tied with Tom Eaton and Dallas Williams).[49]

Baltimore Oriole records [edit]
Games Played: 3,001
Consecutive games: 2,632
At bats: 11,551
Hits: 3,184
Runs: 1,647
RBI: 1,695
Extra Base Hits: 1,078
Doubles: 603
Home runs: 431 (Baltimore has had six members of the 500 home run club on its roster, but none have hit more with the Orioles than Ripken)
Total Bases: 5,168
Walks: 1,129
Strikeouts: 1,305
Assists: 8,212
Double Plays: 1,682
Debate Round No. 1
deever

Pro

First off, I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate and so quickly too.

My opponent's debate falls into two main caterogies, awards and stats. I would first deal with awards.

1) All-star: all star votings are conducted by fans. So, no professionals are involved and therefore this honor is not totally important and meangingful. Futhermore, fans are encouraged to vote as many times as possible. So, these votes are about popularity asmuch as skill.

2) Silver Slugger: Ripken is competing against shortstops. If you can hit 15 home runs, you will likely win the sliver slugger award. So, if Ripken can beat players offensively like Tony Fernandez, Omar Vizquel and Alan Trammell, he would win the Silver Slugger award. Fernandez hit 94 home runs, Vizquel hit 80 and Trammell hit 185. Heck, even Pee Wee Reese would provide a formidable challenge.

3) Gold Glove: Ripken won two. That is all right, but the professionals who vote for these awards judge defense by how many plays the player make that look hard. This doesn't show range factor, how many plays the player can make. Sure, Ripken was an all right defensive shortstop but he wasn't a great one.

All of the other awards: Lots of them are kinda useless. They literally don't show anything. Sports Illustrated, Associated Press, it is all about fanfare. They look at who has the bigger name and who made the largest splash, they don't care about who is better.

So, most of those awards Ripken won are because he played against bad offensive shortstops.

-Ripken was listed as number 78 on the The Sporting News and I do remebered that I would not bring in Negro League players, but I do not imagined there would be 33 Negro League Players ahead of Ripken. So, The Sporting News agrees with me that Ripken is not a top 50 all time MLB player.
-Ripken was named to the All-Century Team. So? There are a lot of players on the All-Century Team. Most of them are better than Ripken.
-Beat Gehrig's streak. Once again, so? Ripken hurt his team a lot because he was so selfish and that he would not remove himself even when he was doing so poorly. Ripken isn't a better baseball player because he played in 2632 straight games.
-Ranked third best Shortstop by Bill James. Third best shortstop =/= top 50 all time.
-Number 8 uniform retired by Orioles. LOTS of players have their uniform numbers retired.
-Elected to Hall Of Fame with 95.3% of votes. Doesn't prove anything. Cobb had a higher percentage than Babe Ruth. So Cobb is better than Ruth? No. Ripken ended up higher than Ruth and Cobb. So Ripken is the best postion player? No where close. Ripken was elected with 98.53% because he was popular and because of the streak. Neither should count much.
-Tony Gwynn was there when he was elected. Well, he was there out of respect. If no major league player appeared, that would be damaging to Gwynn's image.\ Besides, Gwynn isn't that good. He isn't top 50 material himself.
-Most grounded into double plays at 350. Um, that isn't a good thing. The more double plays you ground into, the more outs you created and the more you harm your team. In fact double plays are called "pitcher's best friends". So, Ripken is helping the opposing pitcher.
-Most home runs by a shortstop. Shortstops can't hit home runs, not an advantage.
-All time leader in All- Star Voting. Voted by FANS, useless.
-Most American League All-Star Selections. Voted by fans, played 21 years. Immensly popular. Useless.
-Oriole records are useless. I'm talking about top 50 all time in the whole MLB. Just because you're the best Oriole does not land you on the list.

Now, let's look at Ripken's stats.
By far, the most impressive are his RBIs and Runs. If however, if you measured his (runs+rbis-home runs)/plate appearances, to get his runs+rbis per plate appearance, you get .226. That is rather low, too low for a top 50 all time player. Ripken's career batting average is .276. In history, normal is about .260. So Ripken is better than normal, but not by much. His career On base percentage is .340. Normal is .330. Once again, not better by much. His career slugging is .447. For his career, the league slugging went everywhere. It started early inhis career at around .370 went up to .408, dip back down to .385, then soared to .445. It didn't fall back down to .410 until Ripken retired. So, Ripken was playing in a hopped league where the average slugging was .400 or more(usually). And the fact that Ripken had "only" .447 is not impressive.

Sources:
1) http://www.baseball-reference.com...
sakskidz

Con

Career Stats: .276/.340/.447, 3184 H, 431 HR, 1695 RBI

Cal Ripken Jr. is one of the greatest infielders to ever play the game of baseball. He is most well known for the fact that he holds the record for consecutive games played with 2,632.

Ripken is a Baltimore Orioles legend and spent all 21 years of his career with the team. The powerful shortstop and third baseman was an All-Star 19 times during his career and is also a member of the 3,000-hit club
Debate Round No. 2
deever

Pro

One of the greatest infielders to play the game? Defensively, not quite. Offensively, no where close. The best defensive shortstop ever is Ozzie Smith. Ripken is not even on the same level as Derek Jeter, who is a good defensive player but not the best. Other great defensive infielders include Bill Mazeroski, Brooks Robinson, Ryne Sandberg and Mike Schmidt. All of them are far better than Ripken. On offense, lots of players are ahead of Ripken. There is Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Honus Wagner, Yogi Berra, Ernie Banks, Johnny Bench and George Brett. So, tell me, how is Ripken one of the greatest infielders ever if he isn't the best offensive or defensive player? Remember, we are talking about all time. So, there are still many outfielders and pitchers. Ripken does not belong on this list. His .276 average is not good enough, his .340 on base percentage isn't good enough and his .447 slugging average cannot make up for the rest. Ripken is not top 50 material.
sakskidz

Con

sakskidz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
deever

Pro

All right, then, time for our last debate for both of us.

RBIs+Runs:
Personally I feel that Ripken's greatest strength is his Rbis and his runs. Ripken has over 1600 Rbis and Runs. When we look at it in its raw form, Ripken has top 50 numbers. However, we cannot simply look at rbis and runs. First of all, it must be rbis+runs. This shows up how many runs the player put up on the scoreboard for his team. Then we subtract the amount of home runs from rbis and runs. So it would be (rbis+runs)-home runs. It is simple why we are subtracting home runs. It is because a solo home run gives the player one rbi and one run, but only put one run on the scoreboard. So every time a player hits a home run, his rbis+runs would gain one too much. So, we subtract the amount of home runs they hit. Lastly, we divide the whole thing by plate appearances in order to get the average. Ripken's (rbis+runs-home runs)/plate appearances is .226. There are a lot of players with higher numbers. For example, Dave Parker is at .238, Del Ennis .249, Dwight Evan .234, Jim Rice .256, Steve Garvey .230 and Paul O' Neill at .244. Granted, these players do not have vastly better (rbis+runs-home runs)/plate appearances, but these players are not legends. Only Jim Rice is currently in the Hall Of Fame. None of these players were listed among The Sporting New's Top 100 list. Yet, they beated Ripken. If players of this quality can beat Ripken, he is no where near the top 50 mark in MLB history.

OPS+:
OPS+ is an important advanced stat. I remember listing Ripken's On base percentage and his slugging percentage aganist the league slugging and on base percentage. Well, OPS+ is exactly that. It measures the player's on base and slugging percentage against the league and it also takes into account the ballpark the player plays in. Ripken's career OPS+ is just 112. The players I listed above ALL have HIGHER OPS+.
Dave Parker: 121
Del Ennis: 117
Dwight Evans: 127
Jim Rice: 128
Steve Garvey: 117
Paul O' Neill: 120
So, these players are better than Ripken in both OPS+ and (rbis+runs-home runs)/plate appearances? None of them are considered a top 50 player, so neither should Ripken.

Sources:
1) http://www.baseball-reference.com...'neipa01.shtml
2) http://www.baseball-reference.com...
3) http://www.baseball-reference.com...
4) http://www.baseball-reference.com...
5) http://www.baseball-reference.com...
6) http://www.baseball-reference.com...

Anyway, thank you for reading my debate. I hope for a good last round b ymy opponent. May you vote for me.
sakskidz

Con

Hall of Fame
2007 BBWAA (98.5%)
Selected to HOF in 2007 by BBWAA

All-Star Games
1983 *
1984 (SS)
1985 (SS)
1986 (SS)
1987 (SS)
1988 (SS)
1989 (SS)
1990 (SS)
1991 (SS)
1992 (SS)
1993 (SS)
1994 (SS)
1995 (SS)
1996 (SS)
1997 (3B)
1998 (3B)
1999 (3B)
2000
2001 (SS)

Awards (yr lg award)
1982 AL Rookie of the Year
1983 ML Major League Player of the Year
1983 AL MVP
1991 ML AS MVP
1991 ML Major League Player of the Year
1991 AL MVP
1992 ML Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
1992 ML Roberto Clemente Award
2001 ML AS MVP

MVP (yr lg (rk, shr))
1982 AL (30, 1%)
1983 AL (1, 82%)
1984 AL (27, 0%)
1985 AL (17, 2%)
1989 AL (3, 55%)
1990 AL (24, 1%)
1991 AL (1, 81%)
1993 AL (19, 2%)
1994 AL (12, 6%)
1995 AL (19, 1%)
2 MVPs
2.31 Career Shares (70th)

Gold Gloves
1991 AL (SS)
1992 AL (SS)
All multiple winners

Silver Sluggers
1983 AL (SS)
1984 AL (SS)
1985 AL (SS)
1986 AL (SS)
1989 AL (SS)
1991 AL (SS)
1993 AL (SS)
1994 AL (SS)
All multiple winners

Wins Above Replacement" s c a p y
1983 AL 8.2 (1st)
1984 AL 9.9 (1st)
1986 AL 6.6 (7th)
1989 AL 6.6 (5th)
1990 AL 7.5 (4th)
1991 AL 11.5 (1st)
Career 95.6 (36th)

WAR Position Players" s c a p y
1983 AL 8.2 (1st)
1984 AL 9.9 (1st)
1985 AL 5.6 (7th)
1986 AL 6.6 (4th)
1988 AL 5.7 (9th)
1989 AL 6.6 (4th)
1990 AL 7.5 (2nd)
1991 AL 11.5 (1st)
1994 AL 4.0 (10th)
Career 95.6 (24th)

Offensive WAR" s c a p y
1983 AL 7.0 (3rd)
1984 AL 7.5 (1st)
1985 AL 5.6 (5th)
1986 AL 5.0 (7th)
1988 AL 6.3 (5th)
1990 AL 5.3 (6th)
1991 AL 9.2 (1st)
Career 77.3 (42nd)

Defensive WAR" s c a p y
1983 AL 2.3 (3rd)
1984 AL 3.6 (1st)
1986 AL 2.7 (2nd)
1989 AL 3.4 (1st)
1990 AL 3.4 (1st)
1991 AL 3.4 (1st)
1992 AL 2.4 (2nd)
1993 AL 2.1 (7th)
1994 AL 2.2 (1st)
1995 AL 2.9 (2nd)
Career 34.6 (4th)

Batting Average s c a p y
1983 AL .318 (5th)
1984 AL .304 (9th)
1991 AL .323 (6th)

Slugging % s c a p y
1983 AL .517 (5th)
1984 AL .510 (9th)
1991 AL .566 (2nd)

On-Base Plus Slugging s c a p y
1983 AL .888 (5th)
1984 AL .884 (9th)
1991 AL .940 (3rd)

Games Played s c a p y
1982 AL 160 (6th)
1983 AL 162 (1st)
1984 AL 162 (1st)
1985 AL 161 (4th)
1986 AL 162 (2nd)
1987 AL 162 (1st)
1988 AL 161 (2nd)
1989 AL 162 (1st)
1990 AL 161 (2nd)
1991 AL 162 (1st)
1992 AL 162 (1st)
1993 AL 162 (1st)
1994 AL 112 (8th)
1995 AL 144 (3rd)
1996 AL 163 (1st)
1997 AL 162 (1st)
1998 AL 161 (4th)
Career 3,001 (8th)

At Bats s c a p y
1983 AL 663 (1st)
1984 AL 641 (3rd)
1985 AL 642 (5th)
1986 AL 627 (8th)
1987 AL 624 (6th)
1989 AL 646 (3rd)
1991 AL 650 (4th)
1992 AL 637 (7th)
1993 AL 641 (1st)
1994 AL 444 (7th)
1996 AL 640 (3rd)
1997 AL 615 (7th)
Career 11,551 (4th)

Plate Appearances s c a p y
1983 AL 726 (1st)
1984 AL 716 (4th)
1985 AL 718 (6th)
1986 AL 707 (6th)
1987 AL 717 (3rd)
1988 AL 689 (8th)
1989 AL 712 (4th)
1990 AL 695 (5th)
1991 AL 717 (5th)
1992 AL 715 (5th)
1993 AL 718 (2nd)
1996 AL 707 (7th)
Career 12,883 (6th)

Runs Scored s c a p y
1983 AL 121 (1st)
1984 AL 103 (8th)
1985 AL 116 (2nd)
1986 AL 98 (10th)
Career 1,647 (35th)

Hits s c a p y
1983 AL 211 (1st)
1984 AL 195 (3rd)
1986 AL 177 (10th)
1991 AL 210 (2nd)
1994 AL 140 (5th)
Career 3,184 (15th)

Total Bases s c a p y
1983 AL 343 (2nd)
1984 AL 327 (3rd)
1985 AL 301 (6th)
1986 AL 289 (9th)
1991 AL 368 (1st)
Career 5,168 (15th)

Doubles s c a p y
1983 AL 47 (1st)
1984 AL 37 (4th)
1986 AL 35 (10th)
1991 AL 46 (2nd)
1995 AL 33 (8th)
1996 AL 40 (10th)
Career 603 (13th)

Triples s c a p y
1984 AL 7 (10th)

Home Runs s c a p y
1983 AL 27 (9th)
1991 AL 34 (3rd)
Career 431 (43rd)

Runs Batted In s c a p y
1983 AL 102 (9th)
1985 AL 110 (6th)
1991 AL 114 (4th)
Career 1,695 (25th)

Bases on Balls s c a p y
1987 AL 81 (10th)
1988 AL 102 (3rd)
1990 AL 82 (10th)
Career 1,129 (72nd)

Strikeouts s c a p y
Career 1,305 (114th)

Singles s c a p y
1983 AL 135 (4th)
1994 AL 105 (3rd)
1997 AL 119 (10th)
Career 2,106 (35th)

Adjusted OPS+ s c a p y
1983 AL 144 (5th)
1984 AL 146 (6th)
1991 AL 162 (3rd)

Runs Created s c a p y
1983 AL 120 (3rd)
1984 AL 122 (3rd)
1986 AL 102 (9th)
1991 AL 134 (2nd)
Career 1,729 (45th)

Adj. Batting Runs s c a p y
1983 AL 40 (4th)
1984 AL 40 (6th)
1991 AL 53 (2nd)

Adj. Batting Wins s c a p y
1983 AL 3.9 (4th)
1984 AL 3.9 (6th)
1991 AL 5.2 (2nd)

Extra Base Hits s c a p y
1983 AL 76 (1st)
1984 AL 71 (3rd)
1991 AL 85 (1st)
Career 1,078 (21st)

Times On Base s c a p y
1983 AL 269 (3rd)
1984 AL 268 (4th)
1985 AL 249 (10th)
1986 AL 251 (5th)
1988 AL 256 (7th)
1991 AL 268 (6th)
Career 4,379 (24th)

Offensive Win % s c a p y
1983 AL .666 (9th)
1984 AL .692 (10th)
1991 AL .724 (5th)

Hit By Pitch s c a p y
Career 66 (236th)

Sacrifice Flies s c a p y
1987 AL 11 (2nd)
1988 AL 10 (1st)
1991 AL 9 (3rd)
1995 AL 8 (10th)
1997 AL 10 (7th)
2001 AL 9 (6th)
Career 127 (2nd)

Intentional Bases on Balls s c a p y
1990 AL 18 (2nd)
1991 AL 15 (5th)
1992 AL 14 (4th)
1993 AL 19 (6th)
Career 107 (102nd)

Double Plays Grounded Into s c a p y
1983 AL 24 (4th)
1985 AL 32 (2nd)
1986 AL 19 (6th)
1987 AL 19 (7th)
1989 AL 22 (3rd)
1994 AL 17 (3rd)
1996 AL 28 (1st)
1997 AL 19 (7th)
Career 350 (1st)

AB per SO s c a p y
1986 AL 10.5 (10th)
1991 AL 14.1 (6th)
1992 AL 12.7 (7th)
1993 AL 11.1 (10th)
1994 AL 10.8 (8th)
1997 AL 8.4 (8th)

Outs Made s c a p y
1982 AL 467 (7th)
1983 AL 485 (3rd)
1984 AL 465 (9th)
1985 AL 504 (3rd)
1986 AL 477 (10th)
1987 AL 502 (3rd)
1989 AL 510 (3rd)
1990 AL 471 (9th)
1992 AL 500 (4th)
1993 AL 503 (2nd)
1995 AL 431 (7th)
1996 AL 496 (1st)
1997 AL 478 (8th)
Career 8,893 (4th)

Base-Out Runs Added (RE24)" s c a p y
1983 AL 32.22 (7th)
1984 AL 41.11 (5th)
1991 AL 50.03 (2nd)

Win Probability Added (WPA)" s c a p y
1984 AL 3.5 (9th)
1988 AL 3.3 (10th)
1991 AL 4.4 (2nd)
Career 15.5 (244th)

Situ. Wins Added (WPA/LI)" s c a p y
1983 AL 3.0 (9th)
1985 AL 2.7 (10th)
1991 AL 4.8 (2nd)

Base-Out Wins Added (REW)" s c a p y
1983 AL 3.2 (7th)
1984 AL 4.1 (6th)
1991 AL 5.0 (2nd)

Assists" s c a p y
1983 AL 534 (1st)
1984 AL 583 (1st)
1985 AL 474 (4th)
1986 AL 482 (1st)
1987 AL 480 (2nd)
1988 AL 480 (3rd)
1989 AL 531 (1st)
1991 AL 528 (1st)
1993 AL 495 (1st)
1995 AL 409 (5th)
1996 AL 483 (1st)
Career 8,214 (3rd)

Errors Committed" s c a p y
1984 AL 26 (5th)
1985 AL 26 (4th)
1997 AL 22 (3rd)

Total Zone Runs" s c a p y
1984 AL 23 (2nd)
1989 AL 21 (3rd)
1990 AL 22 (2nd)
1991 AL 23 (1st)
1994 AL 17 (1st)
1995 AL 22 (2nd)
Career 181 (8th)

Def. Games as 3B s c a p y
1997 AL 162 (1st)
1998 AL 161 (1st)

Putouts as 3B s c a p y
1998 AL 101 (5th)
2001 AL 97 (4th)

Assists as 3B s c a p y
1997 AL 314 (2nd)
1998 AL 265 (4th)

Errors Committed as 3B s c a p y
1997 AL 22 (2nd)

Double Plays Turned as 3B s c a p y
1997 AL 25 (2nd)
1998 AL 22 (5th)
2001 AL 23 (4th)

Def. Games as SS s c a p y
1983 AL 162 (1st)
1984 AL 162 (1st)
1985 AL 161 (2nd)
1986 AL 162 (2nd)
1987 AL 162 (1st)
1988 AL 161 (1st)
1989 AL 162 (1st)
1990 AL 161 (1st)
1991 AL 162 (1st)
1992 AL 162 (1st)
1993 AL 162 (1st)
1994 AL 112 (1st)
1995 AL 144 (1st)
1996 AL 158 (1st)
Career 2,302 (5th)

Putouts as SS s c a p y
1983 AL 272 (2nd)
1984 AL 297 (1st)
1985 AL 286 (1st)
1987 AL 240 (5th)
1988 AL 284 (1st)
1989 AL 276 (1st)
1990 AL 242 (4th)
1991 AL 267 (1st)
1992 AL 287 (1st)
1993 AL 226 (5th)
1995 AL 206 (5th)
Career 3,651 (22nd)

Assists as SS s c a p y
1983 AL 534 (1st)
1984 AL 583 (1st)
1985 AL 474 (2nd)
1986 AL 482 (1st)
1987 AL 480 (1st)
1988 AL 480 (3rd)
1989 AL 531 (1st)
1990 AL 435 (4th)
1991 AL 528 (1st)
1992 AL 445 (3rd)
1993 AL 495 (1st)
1994 AL 321 (3rd)
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by utahjoker 3 years ago
utahjoker
deeversakskidzTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: FF