The Instigator
Strider223
Pro (for)
The Contender
dbox
Con (against)

Calvinism VS Open Theism

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Time Remaining
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/12/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 173 times Debate No: 118172
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

Strider223

Pro

I'm not going to put an argument here. I am here to defend Open Theism, And that is all.
dbox

Con

Pro,

The way this is set up is not a very good format as Pro presents a vastly broad and nebulous topic as his position. Really this is set up as if I were the one who started the debate, So I will just present a verse that shows that God is the one who directs the whole of history for HIs purpose and that His past actions had guaranteed future results that God foretold well before they happened. God is not bound by His own creation.

"To whom will you liken me and make me equal,
and compare me, That we may be alike?
6 Those who lavish gold from the purse,
and weigh out silver in the scales,
hire a goldsmith, And he makes it into a god;
then they fall down and worship!
7 They lift it to their shoulders, They carry it,
they set it in its place, And it stands there;
it cannot move from its place.
If one cries to it, It does not answer
or save him from his trouble.

8 "Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, You transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, And there is no other;
I am God, And there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, "My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose, "
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, And I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, And I will do it.

12 "Listen to me, You stubborn of heart,
you who are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off,
and my salvation will not delay;
I will put salvation in Zion,
for Israel my glory. "

The focus is on verses 8-11. God declares from the ancient times the things that have not yet come to pass. This is most highly exemplified in Christ, The Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world, Foreordained to die at the fullness of time for the sins of His Church.

Respectfully,
dbox
Debate Round No. 1
Strider223

Pro

Dear dbox,
I do apologize for my short first argument. I didn't realize that is how these debates work. Also, I can't figure out how to comment so I couldn't respond to your question.
The debate is on whether God pre-ordained all things before He created the universe. My school teaches a Calvinistic view on theology. One quote from "Streams of Civilization Volume 2" is
"The Christian student in enabled by the Word of God to make great progress in evaluating history in the light of Scripture. For example, He knows that the rise of Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, And other totalitarian states were not accidents but part of God's plan for the chastening of an impenitent West and for the purifying of a church that had become apostate in great measure. " I'm not saying you believe this passage, But it does show a sad part about Calvinism. Calvinists believe that all of the sin in the world was ordained by God for His purpose.
Calvinism also says that man is incapable of being good, Which contradicts Philippians 2:14-16 which says "Do everything without grumbling or arguing, So that you may become blameless and pure, Children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life. "
Also, It teaches about the elect. The elect are a group of people chosen by God to go to Heaven. There are only so many elect and no-one can break free of being elect, Or becoming elect. This contradicts mans free-will.
One last question I ask you, Do you believe that God pre-ordained sins? And if He did, Are we able to sin in another manner? For instance, Could Eve have chosen a different fruit from the tree of life, Or did God dictate the particular way in which she would sin? Finally, Could Eve have CHOSEN not to sin?
Respectfully, C Gerst
dbox

Con

Thank you,

We can do a follow up if you want.

Now, I never did see a response to this portion of my argument, Which was the majority of my last post.

"Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, You transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, And there is no other;
I am God, And there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, "My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose, "
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, And I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, And I will do it. "

As it pertains to the bolded portion, I think the greatest example of this can be found in the example of the crucifixion. In Genesis 3:15 we are told that the seed of the serpent shall bruise the heel of the seed of the woman, But the woman's seed shall bruise his head. This is called the protoevangelion, The first gospel. In Acts 2:23 we read this, ". . . This Man, Delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, You nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ", And again in Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, Whom You anointed, Both Herod and Pontius Pilate, Along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, To do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur". We see this extends to his burial and resurrection as well.

"And he made his grave with the wicked, And with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, Neither was any deceit in his mouth. " Isaiah 53:9

"When the even was come, There came a rich man of Arimathaea, Named Joseph, Who also himself was Jesus' disciple: He went to Pilate, And begged the Body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. And when Joseph had taken the body, He wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, Which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, And departed. " Matthew 27:57-60

"But God raised Him up again, Putting an end to the agony of death, Since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 For David says of Him,

"I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, So that I will not be shaken.
26 "Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. " Acts 2:24-28

We see that everything was foreordained. Christ was put to death by the hands of sinful men, As it was foreordained.
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by dbox 1 week ago
dbox
Strider,

You want to hit the restart? Lets give it another go.
Posted by dbox 1 week ago
dbox
I had issues getting this to post. I just wanted to say that there were some portions I ignored due to time. I had 30 seconds left when I posted this. The portion concerning modern world powers fall outside of the context of Scriptures interpretation. In other words, We can not find, 'Hitler rose to power because'. . . Or 'Stalin was raised up in order to'. . . In the same way that we can read of Pharaoh where God says, "But, Indeed, For this reason I have allowed you to remain, In order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth" (Ex 9:16).

Also, The matter of man's free will is a related topic, But it is not this topic. I would definitely be willing to debate that when it is the topic of debate. This debate is strictly about Gods foreordaining future events as you stated.

You did mention you are new to this so if I may offer this, When you make your opening argument, Make the topic very specific and make it explicitly clear in your thesis what you want to debate (I am arguing that God's does not mean such and such, Because if it did, This would contradict mans free will. . . ). This makes it easy to stay on topic and judge who made better arguments for the topic.
Posted by dbox 1 week ago
dbox
nevermind lol
Posted by dbox 1 week ago
dbox
Is it saying I forfeited the round? I am unable to post for some reason.
Posted by Strider223 1 week ago
Strider223
Just found out how to comment. I guess this would be about God's pre-ordainment. Whether God made all events, Past, Present, And future, According to a set list that no-one, Bot even Himself could break.
Posted by dbox 1 week ago
dbox
Pro,

There are many doctrines related to Open Theism. Could you please identify one since we only have three rounds? Might I suggest, God learns, God changes His mind, Or God does not know the future?
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