The Instigator
acvavra
Pro (for)
Tied
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The Contender
joneszj
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Calvinism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 787 times Debate No: 24756
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

acvavra

Pro

Calvinism is a cult and Calvin's TULIP is not in line with the Bible. Use the KJV bible. Rooted in biblical orthodoxy. No semantics. Argue the first 4 points. We both agree on the 5th point-Perseverance of the saints.
joneszj

Con

Thank you very much Acvavra for inviting me to my first official debate. Discussing Calvinism and Arminianism is one of my favorite topics. I hope that God will be glorified in our exchange and that we will leave satisfied.

I would like to note a few things:

1. You have allowed me to use other Bible translations (see comments)

2. The acronym TULIP was developed much after Calvin’s death and never actually belonged to him. It can be misleading to what Calvinists actually believe.

3. Cult tends to have ambiguous connotations associated with it and by it. Would you mind specifying exactly what you mean by "Calvinism is a cult"

4. I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that because you are the one making the claim that it is therefore your burden to substantiate the claim. So, what I will do is first give a simple explanation of the debate historically and will leave you with the burden of providing the verses initially to substantiate your claim, or make corrections at which I will then response to your verses/corrections to my defense. Would that be ok?

5. I understand that I need to cite anything I quote. Is it required to cite for demonstrating points or should that wait until one of us objects to that point? If you would be so kind as to let me know, thanks.

To the points!

1 Total Depravity

The first thing to note about Total Depravity is that neither side of the debate disagrees with it. Historically Arminianism has always upheld the doctrine of Total Depravity just as Calvinism has. Total depravity basically teaches that all of the human being is tainted with sin to the extent that without the grace of God man left to his own devices would never initiate faith from within himself. The only circles that reject Total Dipravity are Pelagianists and Semi-Pelagianists. Arminians (free-willers) are not semi-pelagianists.

The dividing point is actually a point between behind the TULIP as a whole. Its particular placement would not fit between any particular letter but it does fit with the whole. It is the issue of how God effectually remediates the fallen nature of man. This is called Prevenient Grace by both sides. To the Calvinist, Prevenient Grace is accomplished by Regeneration of the elect by the Holy Spirit which inevitably results is the saving of that person. For the Arminian, Prevenient Grace is in some manner bestowed to all of humanity that to some form and degree restrains the sinful fallen nature of man so that when presented with the gospel message they have the possibility of accepting or rejecting it. The scope, degree, and time of the Arminian mode of Prevenient Grace seems to differ person to person.

2 Unconditional Election

When discussing Election it is important to note that again neither side rejects electtion or predestining. The argument is whether God elects unconditionally as the Calvinists believe or if God predestines by foreknowing that man would first choose Him and then electing them based on that foreknowledge as the Arminians do.

3 Limited Atonement

Probably the most debated point. It is more of a logical necessity of the other points. Limited Atonement deals with the efficacy of the atonement. For whom was the atonement accomplished for. There are essentially only three possible results of the atonement scenario:

1 (Calvinism) The atonement was for the elect only and accomplished it for the elect definitely

2 (Arminianism) The atonement was for the whole of humanity and is only effectual for only those who believe

3 (Universalism) The atonement was for the whole of humanity and is effectual for all

The Calvinist view and Arminian view are extremely similar. The difference is in the defining and operations of the elect. Limited Atonement was established to simply state that if Christ had effectually atoned for all people then either he A) succeeded thus all people are saved or B) failed thus having its own theological implications of God failing to accomplish something. So, Limited Atonement is necessary to show that only the elect (Calvinism), or those who believe (Arminianism, also considered elect) receive the effect of the atonement as opposed to all of humanity.

4 Irresistible Grace

Irresistible Grace, like all of the point in the acronym can be misleading. It teaches that the elect cannot reject the call of salvation. This is accomplished because after regeneration the person is compelled not just by God but also by their changed nature and thus there is nothing resisting their confession. What is misleading about this point is that many people take it and erringly conclude that the God in all ways cannot be resisted. That is not what the point teaches. Calvinists very much do believe that God can be resisted. Calvinists see two modes of will in scripture with regard to God. A Decretive will and a Revealed will. The decretive will is that which cannot be resisted and must come to pass. Examples of Gods decretive will would be: Creation, the crucifixion of Christ, the predestining of the elect, Regeneration. Gods Revealed will can be resisted. Examples of Gods revealed will would be: the commandments (not just the ten), Gods desire that none should perish, etc. More often than not most Arminians also share the same view on the different wills of God that Calvinists do and may use different terms such as Permissive will and the such. Point being, when examined, Irresistible Grace differs from Arminianism in that Regeneration is not in Gods decretive will, and thus may be resisted.

5 Perseverance of the Saints

I will not go into detail on this point as you said we are debating the first four points. I would like to note that I find it inconsistent to believe in point 5 and yet not points 2, 3, and 4 along with the manner of which God accomplishes Prevenient Grace.

Thanks!

Debate Round No. 1
acvavra

Pro

I would like to tie this debate and start over. Let me answer your questions, and then we will restart. Define where TULIP is misleading and we'll go from there. Calvinism is a cult in that the first 4 points are heretical, at least as I understand them. Yes, the burden of proof is on me to substantiate the claim. I argue from the Bible that TULI is heretical, and you argue from the Bible that TULI is not heretical, but orthodox. You may cite anything you feel needs citing, its at your discretion. Since this debate deals with the Bible, providing verses should be enough reliable sources.
Understand? Let's tie. You set up the next debate so I can follow your rules. I will wait for you to issue me a challenge.
joneszj

Con

Ok that might take me some time. I will PM you with questions before I form the debate. How do we tie?
Debate Round No. 2
acvavra

Pro

Just accept the tie by saying, "I accept a tie."
Message me as much as you want.
joneszj

Con

kool, I accept a tie.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by joneszj 2 years ago
joneszj
Bummer, I should have read other debates first ><
Apparently the first round is for a formal acceptance. My apologies.
Posted by joneszj 2 years ago
joneszj
Well I guess I will just start. My apologies if I do something wrong.
Posted by joneszj 2 years ago
joneszj
Well thats interesting considering the Bible was not originally penned in English. Are you Arminian? I have never been in a debate before. Are there certain writing etiquete required and such? Will it focus entirely on Calvinism or do I have the liberty to demonstrate the holes in other soteriological ideaologies? Sorry for my noobness
Posted by acvavra 2 years ago
acvavra
I believe the KJV is the only tanslation that's the word of God. To explain would be a whole nother debate. But you may use another translation if you wish. I will stick to the KJV though.
Posted by joneszj 2 years ago
joneszj
Is there any specific reason your not allowing any other translation? I have always found it constructive to cross-reference verses with other translations. Also, the KJV is simply difficult to read at times. Would you be opposed to changing the rules in regards to this matter? Please let me know :)
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Chelicerae 2 years ago
Chelicerae
acvavrajoneszjTied
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Reasons for voting decision: =Tie Requested=