The Instigator
dporeil
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
RoyLatham
Pro (for)
Winning
33 Points

Can Bruce lee beat 6 20 year old males in a fight?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
RoyLatham
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/19/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,778 times Debate No: 25157
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (5)

 

dporeil

Con

I will not provide an argument to begin with as I don't think it is necessary. The scenario is:

Open flat plane of grass with nowhere else to go. Bruce lee vs 6 average 20yr old males. If you think Bruce Lee would win, please justify clearly why you think so with sources.

Male demographics (each male has same demographics for purpose of argument)

Age - 20
Weight - 75kg
Height - 6 foot
Fighting experience - none
Fitness level - reasonably fit

Bruce Lee is alive for this argument and at the prime of his martial arts career. The fight is spur of the moment so no planning can be made by either party. No weapons available.
RoyLatham

Pro

I bid you welcome, Grasshopper.

There is no serious question of Master Lee defeating the six attackers. The only question is whether he would chose to let them live. Master Lee was kind, and his attackers young, so he would let most of them survive.

1. Bruce Lee was master of the unstoppable punch.

"Lee appeared at the 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships and performed various demonstrations, including the famous "unstoppable punch" against USKA world Karate champion Vic Moore Lee told Moore that he was going to throw a straight punch to the face, and all he had to do was to try to block it. Lee took several steps back and asked if Moore was ready, when Moore nodded in affirmation, Lee glided towards him until he was within striking range. He then threw a straight punch directly at Moore's face, and stopped before impact. In eight attempts, Moore failed to block any of the punches." [1. http://en.wikipedia.org...]

This is possible because the defender has an inherent disadvantage of reaction time. The defender must see the punch coming then move to defend. Initiating the defensive move takes a minimum of about 100 msec, a tenth of second. The Federation that governs sprinters considers any reaction less than 100 msec a false start. They consider that there is a limit to how fast a human can react to a start signal. As of 2002, if an athlete left the blocks sooner than 100 mSec after the start signal, he was deemed to have false-started.[2. http://condellpark.com...] Professional drag racing use 200 msec as the minimum plausible reaction time of a driver to a light change. [http://atlasf1.autosport.com... paragraph 6].

The martial arts master also suffers the delay in initiating the punch before his arm moves, but is opponent doe not know that the punch is coming until he sees the arm move. The task of the master is then to land the punch before his opponent can react. Master Lee could do that consistently.

2. A single strike from a master can be fatal

A punch to the throat crushes the trachea and the blood flow into the lung quickly suffocates the person. Throat punches are therefore forbidden in every competitive marshal art [3. http://atlasf1.autosport.com...]. "Strong [throat] blows can cause difficulty breathing, rupture of the trachea (windpipe), bleeding and even death." [4. http://www.essortment.com...] " Throat. A powerful blow to the front of the throat can cause death by crushing the windpipe. A forceful blow causes extreme pain and gagging or vomiting." [5. http://combation.com...]

A properly directed strike to the side of the head can knock out an opponent. Military close quarter combat expert Jeff Anderson writes, "But one single well placed blow, even with as little as 25% of the power you normally can muster, will take down a giant in one second." Anderson teaches striking with the heel of the open hand,

"When the uppercut hits the opponent under the chin, it slams his head back. Besides jarring the brain, this whiplash effect triggers the nerves in spine as the skull slams back and down into them. This is one of the main reasons why the uppercut has earned such a reputation as a knockout blow." [6. http://www.closequarterscombat.com...]

The U.S. Army identifies 36 vital targets. [5, op cit] for example, a strike to the ear can rupture the eardrum and cause a brain concussion. A martial arts master knows all the vital targets, is expert at targeting them, and delivers blows with powerful force before and ordinary person can even react. Combat experts know defensive techniques like keeping one's chin down to protect against a throat strike, but amateur have no idea what is coming or how to defend.

3. Proper technique isolates attackers

The techniques for fighting multiple attackers are given by he Haines Kenpo school [7. http://www.haineskenpo.com...]. "Groups are more predictable than individuals. A group creates a collective intelligence that seems, like an army of ants, to behave in a rather predictable way. For example, several attackers charging you will generally neglect their defense because they do not feel individually vulnerable. Also, much like everyone trying to rush out the same door at once, the group will often charge forward and literally get into each others way."

Briefly, the method is:

a. Take out the leader.
b. Take out the greatest threat (face that guy with the knife first, instead of dealing with him after another guy has you pinned.)
c. Take out the attacker who is blocking your exit.
d. Attack at the flank so that the opponent's will line up for you.
e. Begin to retreat, causing the herd to advanced straight at you, and take out the guy at the front of the line.
[7, op cit, item 10]


Take out means, "Make it your intent to never deal with an attacker more than once. If you push down attacker number one, than fight off attacker number two, you will be dealing with attacker number one again. Thus, in a since, your two person attack just became a three person attack. When possible, deliver adequate damage so that attacker number one will not be capable of renewing his attack. Hit hard and hit the vitals, don't play around." [7, op cit]

The basic technique is as old as the samurai. The great samurai Miyamoto Musashi taught it in the Book of five rings, c. 1600. [8. http://en.wikiquote.org...]

4. The fight

Master Lee begins to retreat. One attacker will then be in the lead of the pursuit. Master Lee takes him out with a fatal or near fatal throat punch. The speed and effectiveness of the single blow causes the other attackers to pause. Lee strikes the nearest attacker in the nose with palm of his hand. this produces immense amounts of bleeding. With one attacker down and another bleeding in pain, the group is demoralized and the individuals revert to defensive postures. Master Lee then quickly disables two more of the attackers. The last two surrender in fear. The fight is over in less than a minute.

Perhaps some of our readers know Bruce Lee only as an action movie actor and wonder if a mere actor could fight a real fight. Have no doubt about it. "He is widely considered by many commentators, critics, media and other martial artists to be the greatest and most influential martial artist of all time." [1, op cit]

Wikipedia recounts [9. http://en.wikipedia.org...] Lee's remarkable physical abilities

      • Lee's speed in terms of reacting + punching from a distance of three feet away was determined to be around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second); from five feet away it was around eight hundredths of a second (0.08 second).
      • Lee could take in one arm a 75 lb barbell from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest and slowly stick his arms out locking them, holding the barbell there for several seconds.
      • In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.
      • Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger
      • Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.
      • Lee could cause a 300-lb (136.08 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick.
      • Lee held an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.

Six amateurs would have no chance whatsoever. Their lives would depend upon his mercy.

Debate Round No. 1
dporeil

Con

dporeil forfeited this round.
RoyLatham

Pro

Bruce Lee

Bruce Lee is shown in the photo [10]. The video shows a man fighting multiple attackers using the basic techniques known in martial arts.[11]

It has happened

Fights staged for the movies are usually not realistic. I wanted to find an example of a fighter defeating multiple opponents in realistic circumstances. YouTube provides just such an example in the form of a street fight in Turkey. We don't know who the protagonists are. (Well, the narration is Turkish, so maybe people who understand Turkish know, but I don't.) In any case, the fight shows the principles of fighting multiple attackers as I recited in the last round.

The fight is short, but it is repeated several times on the video. The first thing to notice is how the defender keeps moving. This keeps the attackers strung out in nearly single file. Next notice the defender's use of quick disabling strikes. He takes out one of the attackers with a strike to the side of the head below the jaw. The fight is replayed in slow motion, so note the full speed at the start. That point n the head is known to students of the martial to as a vital point, where a single strike can take out an opponent.

The defender appears competently trained in the marshal arts, but from the speed, force, and precision of his strikes, we know he is not approaching the unusual skill level of Master Lee. The man nonetheless dispatches three opponents.

Another case is recounted by a different martial arts instructor. He says, "I witnessed a highly-proficient Tae Kwon Do stylist knock down five opponents in a parking lot using classical TKD techniques. Three of the five opponents were dropped with head kicks! Many would say that these are impractical for self-defense, but they obviously worked well for this guy in this situation!" [12..
http://www.defenduniversity.com...]


In the 1969 movie Marlowe, Lee is shown kicking and destroying a ceiling light fixture hanging about seven feet above the floor. Kicking someone in the head would not be a problem. My point is that if lesser martial artists can defeat three or five attackers, the greatest martial artist of all times would not have a problem with six. The technique keeps them strung out so only one or two are dealt with at a time. The faster the master, the quicker they are disabled.


Bruce Lee's speed


The data presented in R1 shows that a human cannot respond in less than 100 to 200 milliseconds (0.1 to 0.2 second.) Master Lee's could strike from three feet in 50 msec and from five feet in 80 msec.



According to one instructor, "The martial artist Bruce Lee is known for being pound-for-pound one of the fastest and quickest athletes the world has ever seen. Through my research, I found out that isometrics were a big part of his training regimen." [13. www.athleticquickness.com/brucelee.asp]



The theory is that muscles provide strength while tendons provide quickness. Tendons are the cords that attach the muscles to joints, claimed to hold elastic energy.. Isometric exercises involve hold a weight motionless for a long period of time.



It doesn't really matter how Bruce Lee got his quickness. What matters is that he had and it is critical to defeating multiple opponents. the opponents must betaken out quickly.


...........


I hope my opponent is well and will return for the final round of the debate.


Debate Round No. 2
dporeil

Con

dporeil forfeited this round.
RoyLatham

Pro

My opponent made no arguments and forfeited twice. My arguments stand.

The resolution is affirmed.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
I wish I had voted on this in time. I also wish I had two accounts so I could have given Roy 14 points.
Posted by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
*Con forgets to specify if pro can add in those four all have CCW permits*
Posted by THEBOMB 4 years ago
THEBOMB
Is BOP shared? So you have to say why the 6 men would win, I have to say why Bruce Lee would win?
Posted by THEBOMB 4 years ago
THEBOMB
So the terrain is basically a flat cube xD
Posted by dporeil 4 years ago
dporeil
Ok look at it fairly. Bruce Lee at his prime (whatever age) versus 6 males.mof course the 6 males will attack at once as it is the only chance. Rushing Bruce lee and stomping him would be the likely objective. That is my assumption and I guess it would be everyone else's also if you wanted a chance to win. 'THEBOMB' obviously these sorts of variables cannot be taken into consideration as then the argument would be unresolvable.

The fight is a spur of the moment thing, so no planning can be done (traps). Sorry for not clearing all this up.
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
Would somebody just take this damn thing lol. I want to read about Bruce Lee fighting!
Posted by THEBOMB 4 years ago
THEBOMB
It's impossible to say what would happen. For all we know, Bruce Lee places his footing badly and pops his ankle and knee...who knows...to many variables.
Posted by yuiru 4 years ago
yuiru
What if these guys my not have fighting experience, but are really clever and design a trap for Bruce?

It all comes done to if Bruce lee has the ability to be them all.
Posted by adontimasu 4 years ago
adontimasu
@THEBOMB - Does it matter? He'd win either way! :P
Posted by caveat 4 years ago
caveat
Undead Bruce Lee... seems legit.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by famer 4 years ago
famer
dporeilRoyLathamTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Full FF
Vote Placed by adontimasu 4 years ago
adontimasu
dporeilRoyLathamTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Full forfeit.
Vote Placed by Mirza 4 years ago
Mirza
dporeilRoyLathamTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Con made no arguments. No sources either. S/G is a tie. Pro coherently argued for Bruce Lee's side, and his arguments are sound. Pro should have pointed out that even if Lee is dead, he would win a fight if his opponents forfeited like Con. Merry Christmas.
Vote Placed by Microsuck 4 years ago
Microsuck
dporeilRoyLathamTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: forfeits.
Vote Placed by Ron-Paul 4 years ago
Ron-Paul
dporeilRoyLathamTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: FFs, great arguments by pro and great effort with all the sources by pro.