The Instigator
TG2333
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
Jevinigh
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points

Can Evolotion\big bang\aliens existing effect Islamic belief's ?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
TG2333
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/3/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,140 times Debate No: 51313
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (1)

 

TG2333

Con

Introduction.
Hello my name is Hamza Ojjeh, i'm a Muslim-Sunni, i'm going to be debating with my opponent about if Scientific facts can kill islamic belief's.

what am i going to try to prove and what well my opponent try to prove.

I believe that these scientific facts can't destroy or corrupt islamic belief's which i will explain why in today's debate, my opponent well need to prove me wrong and prove that these scientfic facts can effect islamic belief's.

Rules

1_You can't use wiki(Wiki islam or anything like that as sources)but you can use links from any trusted website(Trusted info or video)

2_Everything you and i say will need to put where did you get that info from at the end of your argument and a link if possible, example
.......
The texters in cod are really bad
(Sources: http://i2.minus.com... )
.......
3_You have only 24 hours to post your argument

4_ You well introduce yourself and then make your argument first

5_Before you accept the debate i need to know what you believe in(Christen\Athiest\Agnostic\Jew,etc)

5_Enjoy the debate!

Thank you for reading and good luck.
Jevinigh

Pro


Hello con, I broke the 5th guideline you posted due to technical error. Apparently a crashing plugin caused the browser not to post my comment, so I will post it here. I am Jevinigh as you gathered and I have my own set of believes to which I feel no obligation to answer for, but you may consider me as an Agnostic if you must consider me something. :D Rough introductions out of the way, let us get underway.


I must clear this up at the beginning of the debate, I will be arguing against an infallible Qu'ran. If we get into liberal interpretations we will quickly arrive at a circle jerk, Where you will be able to slip out of any contradiction by becoming ever more abstract in your interpretation. In order for this debate to be practical, we must stick to what Islam as a religion teaches in its creation story and further, not an argument about whether science can disprove god. We are arguing about whether or not the Qu'ran can be flawless and there by divine... if it is not flawless it is not divine.


Culturally, Muslims have rejected the young earth interpretation of the creation story, it is an indefensible position to take from a logical stand point. Though the Creation story is similar to that of the Christian bible, the Qu'ran does not have a passage dedicated to creation myth as the Bible does, the story of creation is spread out instead in various books in the Qu'ran. How ever the Qu'ran still gives us solid numbers and while Muslims may culturally seek to distance them selves from young-earth(ears) their book says other wise.

Your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then settled Himself firmly on the Throne... (Qu'ran, 7:54)

... But it goes on to give further elaboration...

Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Period with thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. ( Qu'ran 22:47 )

I do not accept this argument I have seen about this being a reference to Einstein's theory of Relativity. ( reference: ) To use this word "Like" ( also translated as "as") like it is a free pass to twist the numbers around is an honestly desperate and dishonest practice. the Qu'ran gave us a Number... it says a Thousand years... In order to tort the number to align with the known age of the earth ( 4.5 Billion) and the strongly suspected age of the universe ( 13~ish Billion) you must in every way violate the number the Qu'ran has given you. I will not accept abstracts.

Science's age of the Universe IS NOT compatible with an infallible Qu'ran... But there is of course more topics in the Qu'ran that contradicts science.

Such as :
"Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not. So [Solomon] smiled, amused at her speech, and said, "My Lord, enable me to be grateful for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents and to do righteousness of which You approve. And admit me by Your mercy into [the ranks of] Your righteous servants." (Qu'ran 27:18-19)

A conversation with a frigging ant... literally... This is none sense, communication with ants is not possible but just for reference here is a link about how ants communicate. http://worldsciencefestival.com...


The Qu'ran is a beautiful book, of all of the mythologies out there, the Qu'ran is among the most beautiful. To hear it read is a song. But the Qu'ran is no different than the bible in that it is a Religious text filled with ways that people more than a 1000 years ago looked at the world... and how they explained what they than did not have the tools to explain.

The source used for all Qu'ran references: ( www.quran.com)






Debate Round No. 1
TG2333

Con

Thank for your kind words pro, i well start now.

Before i start typing my own argument i well try replaying to pro's argument first.

The Verse: Your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then settled Himself firmly on the Throne...

Before i start explainning it, i'll give you an example that is similar to this one, If i told you that i created earth when i was at Venus within 6 days, that means i created earth within 696 earth days, Correct me if i'm wrong, but a day at Venus is 116 earth days.

Explanation and Conclusion.

explanation:
Just like the example i made, this is the same thing, If God made the heavens(Universe) first then earth, because he says he created Heavens and the earth in six days, it didn't get in more detail like in any day earth was created or the universe, so lets say the universe took 5 days and earth 1 day, before the big bang, there was no time, time started when the bigbang exploded, it keept expanding, meaning also time was also expanding, because when the universe gets bigger, time gets longer, so imagin how much time per a day the universe well be until it created earth, probably billions and billions of years in 1 day, the center of everything is really, really far from us, which is were the bigbang started, i hope i didn't make this complicated and apologies for my grammer if theres anything i typed wrong, Conclusion: God didn't create the universe in 5 earth days, because earth didn't exist, God didn't use earth days as time when earth was in it's formation.

age of the earth ( 4.5 Billion) and the strongly suspected age of the universe ( 13~ish Billion)

These numbers aren't 100% accurate, These numbers are only here to help scientests explain the universe, so you can't use them as a fact, It is possbile to know how old is earth, but you can't know how old is the universe, because we don't know where is the center of everything, if we knew were, we would probably estimate how much time did it take to expand, but we don't know where it is, and also our telescopes can only see probably like 2% of the universe, either less or a little bit more not sure.


Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not. So [Solomon] smiled, amused at her speech

This isn't really related to our debate, and it's not scientific, but i'll explain it anyways, Solomon is a prophet who could understand every creature and the way it communicates, but he couldn't talk to any, when he was on his way to some battle he came across a valley of ants, because he understands how every creature communicates, he knew what did this ant say to the other ants, I watched the video, he says that ants have 20 words, one is like Danger!, or an enemy is near by, they communicate by chemicals, so this verse is just translated into our language, like if i told you that some guy that only speaks arabic, told me to tell you hey, that doesn't mean that he was talking english, but i'm just translating it to you so you can understand it, but Don't bother with this.

So now i well start with my argument.

If you're not convinced yet by what i said about the 6 days verse, this may convince you.

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."[Quran 41.11]

In the verse it says While it was Smoke , meaning, The quran does support the origins of Earth and the Universe, but thats besides the point, The quran is telling you that earth and the universe were smoke, in the same time he's telling you that it took 6 days(Universe days) to be complete.

(Sources: www.quran.com)

BIGBANG

Verse 1: Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."[Quran 41.11]

I already explained this one.

Verse 2:Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? [Quran 21.30]

This verse is misundestood alot by non muslims, some People think when they read this verse, that earth was with the bigbang, and what they replay to this verse is that earth didn't exist when the bigbang exploded, which is correct, but if you pay attention to the verse it says *Were* Which means before or in the past, the verse says earth and the heavens were one entity(One object or Mass) What the verse is saying, is that Earth's mass, or Atoms were one with the whole universe, you see it wasn't just a random explosion, Earth didn't randomly get here, in a verse god
says that everything was planned(Indeed, all things We created with predestination)[54:49 quran] , every atom in the bigbang was meant to be in it's place to create Iron, water, and to put earth here, Imagin the math that it required if humans were to do it, and then god says, We seperated them and made from water every living thing, We seperated them also proves that it was the bigbang, and then made from water every living thing, here were it talks about Evolution which i well talk about in another topic.

Verse 3: And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.[Quran 51.47]

Here the quran says that the universe is expanding, which also supports the bigbang.

Verse 4: The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it.[Quran 21.104]

Here the verse tells us about the bigcrunch, which is doomday and after that people well be judged, and god also promises that after the bigcrunch there well be another bigbang, and other creatures, also this verse says that god is in controll of black holes or worm holes, If you want to understand this you need to understand the theory of the black hole\worm holes, scientests say that black holes\worm holes are like shortcuts, i made this picture so i can explain it.

Picture part 1: http://www.debate.org...

Picture part 2 : http://www.debate.org...

i hope this helped.

and this other verse supports what i said, [It will be] on the Day the earth will be replaced by another earth, and the heavens [as well], and all creatures will come out before Allah , the One, the Prevailing. [Quran 14.48]

and also another one, Is not He who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the likes of them? Yes, [it is so]; and He is the Knowing Creator.Quran 36.81]

Aliens existing, and that we well make contact with one of them

Verse 1: And of his signs is the creation of the heavens and earth and what He has dispersed throughout them of creatures. And He, for gathering them when He wills, is competent.

Now the english translation isn't 100% accurate of what the orginal says, but i well be explaining the orginal, [42:29]وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَثَّ فِيهِمَا مِن دَابَّةٍ ۚ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ جَمْعِهِمْ إِذَا يَشَاءُ قَدِيرٌ


دَابَّةٍ ۚ,
Doesn't mean just creatures, but Creatures that talk like human and walk like humans, and god is saying that he is the one who created the heavens(Universe) and the earth and whats there of دَابَّةٍ ۚ, , and he is the one who decides when do we get together.

Evolution

*Have you seen that which you emit?,*Is it you who creates it,*or are We the Creator?*In that We will change your likenesses and produce you in that [form] which you do not know*And you have already known the first creation, so will you not remember?*
(Quran 56.58-62)

I don't think i need to explain this one.

And your Lord is the Free of need, the possessor of mercy. If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to whomever He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.
(Quran 6.133)

Thanks for reading, i really do appolgies for any grammer mistake, i was really focused on just explaining stuff instead of worrying about grammer. Good luck, and hopefully i won't need to type another 10,000 words argument because my hands hurt now, and my eyes haha.
Jevinigh

Pro



===

Earlier I laid out that the Qu'ran told you specifically that 1 of gods days was as a thousand years... that is a specific number that actively contradicts science and its ageing of the universe. Even if one day was 50,000 years, it is still inadequate to come to terms with the Billions of years old we know our planet to be.

How we know how old the universe is:

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu...;


In short, the age of the world is clearly defined in the qu'ran... the time scale given to people is 1,000 years... If the time scale in the qu'ran is WRONG than it is WRONG,period. I told you in the opening I will not argue against abstractions and the only reasonable way to have this conversation was to ahve a conversation about an infallible Qu'ran. Once more, if the numbers the Qu'ran gives us are wrong than the Qu'ran is wrong.

As for the topics of Aliens, I don't see a need to debate this. The Qu'ran has less contraining language on the topic than does the bible and so while a highly advanced civilization that was not muslim would undermind islam it would not contradict it.

Finally this story about magical men than can "talk" to ants... who do not communicate with sound but rather with the release of Pheremones from their body... which humans like the capacity to produce. I have this mental image of Soloman growing a ant sack out of his rear end to acomplish this! Sorry for being superfluous, I can't help it some times :D

The question you asked in 1st round aside from the specifiscs about aliens and the big bang was 'can science contradict the qu'ran' and the answer is yes... the story of the magical ant whisperer ( there I go again) is more than enough. But here is where I project this is going to break down fast. The qu'ran like all works that claim to be abolsute truth, is self refrencing. This means that when challenged, the Qu'ran falls back on its own material, not on peer reviewed scientific thesis, not on solid logical reasomning either... The bible and the qu'ran are victims of circular reasoning.


You can replace bible with Qu'ran or tora or any other relegious text that claims to be absolute truth. But I remind you that I told you before I would not debate abstracts with relgion, I believe I have made my case against the Qu'rans infallibility.
Debate Round No. 2
TG2333

Con

Earlier I laid out that the Qu'ran told you specifically that 1 of gods days was as a thousand years... that is a specific number that actively contradicts science and its ageing of the universe. Even if one day was 50,000 years, it is still inadequate to come to terms with the Billions of years old we know our planet to be.

it seems like you ignored everything i said about that god is using 6 days as universe days and everything i said in the beginning to the end, it's like you didn't bother to continue reading, but about that 1 gods days is a thousand years, you basicly read half of the story, it's like having a line saying, i can kill the killer, you just read i can kill without continuing, you have to read multiple verses or all the book so you can understand this verse, These are not god days but heaven days and hell days, at hell or heaven a day is a thousand earth years, and also this subject isn't related to our debate whats so ever because it's not scientific since were talking about Heaven\Hell days, And these kind of stuff don't belong in science.

Finally this story about magical men than can "talk" to ants

Didn't i say don't bother with this ?, this proves that you didn't continue reading my argument, This isn't a scientific verse to begin with, because it's not scientific that means this is not releated to our debate.

As for the topics of Aliens, I don't see a need to debate this. The Qu'ran has less contraining language on the topic than does the bible and so while a highly advanced civilization that was not muslim would undermind islam it would not contradict it.

I don't see anything that tries to prove me wrong or the verse, or at least an argument, i think you misunderstood it, These alien species won't specificly contact muslims, either we will find them, or they well find us, probably by the codes that Nasa keeps sending everywhere in space, lets move on.

How we know how old the universe is:

I give pro the credit for this one, but this doesn't harm islam, since islam\quran doesn't say how old the universe is, even through i think using CMB still can't prove how old the universe is 100%, maybe 80% but not 100%, but thats just my opinion


the story of the magical ant whisperer ( there I go again) is more than enough

(There i go again) This isn't scientific in the first place to begin with, it's a miracle, Definition of Miracle: a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency, (There i go again) Don't bother with it.

is more than enough

So i proved to you Bigbang\Aliens\Evolution, but the talking ant bothered you ?


Pro didn't bother making any complicated or hard arguments against me, or anything that can prove me wrong, theres no argument here in the first place.


Conclusion

Pro still hasn't proved me wrong.
Jevinigh

Pro



You are dodging the bigger issue, the question you asked was " Can science harm islam" I proved it can... the stories in the Qu'ran are absurd and no modern, rational mind can believe in an infalliable Qu'ran.

You are dodging the issue that the Qu'ran provided numbers for us to go by and these numbers DO NOT co-exist with the age we knwo the world to be or the age we stronger suspect the universe is. Also, the age fo the universe was not arrived at usign CMB alone, we have reach it by knowing the speed of light and calculating the distance to the furtherest,faintest star we have yet been able to see.

The science disproves the Qu'rans account of the age of the universe. The Big Bang theory it self is only a small part of what the Science entails... As for the Aliens, their existance is not relevant to the qu'ran... How ever this is an abstract point. Yes, the Ant conversdation does bother me because it is a tale of a "Miracle" that cannot have happened and all you have to back it up is self refrenced material.

Evolution does not require a god, but the Qu'ran is written vaguely and its translatiosn are even vaguer which lead to a pointlessness is even bringing it up. How ever despite all of the attempts by the devout and paticularly the young to apear in sync with Science, the Qu'ran remains everything but in sync with science. Efforts to twist vauge passages to fit the modern data are desperate at their best.
Debate Round No. 3
TG2333

Con

You are dodging the bigger issue, the question you asked was " Can science harm islam" I proved it can... the stories in the Qu'ran are absurd and no modern, rational mind can believe in an infalliable Qu'ran.


No, you didn't prove that it can, your just getting verses that are not even releated to science in anyway, these verses don't claim that they are scientific, like the ant verse, which yet you keep trying to tell me that it's scientificly wrong, of course it is, because it's above the laws of nature\universe, it's like comparing a pc to a microwave, and keep telling me that the microwave doesn't have a graphics card so my pc is better, the microwave isn't a pc in the first place, also whats false about a guy who understands how ants communicate ?, you claim that he needs a ant sack out of his rear to know what they are communicating, that scientest in that video didn't need a ant sack to understand these ants, if i need to learn french, that doesn't mean i need a french ear.

1_The science disproves the Qu'rans account of the age of the universe.

2_You are dodging the issue that the Qu'ran provided numbers for us to go by and these numbers DO NOT co-exist with the age we knwo the world to be or the age we stronger suspect the universe is

The quran never claimed to know what age is the universe, There's no number that the quran provided for the age of the universe, if you still think that god created earth and the universe in 6000 days, because you claim that the quran says 1000 god day or what ever, i said in the previous round(Which you also ignored and never replied to), that it's not not gods days but heaven and hell days, which are not releated to the universe and neither they are scientific, god used Universe days as time.


Evolution does not require a god

I'll ignore this since i don't want more other arguments that are not releated to this debate.

Also i well replay to The qu'ran like all works that claim to be abolsute truth line that was mentioned in round 2 by con.

The quran doesn't claim to be the absolute truth, Because we muslims believe that christianity and jewdisim is a part of islam, If i was born before islam, i would've have been a christen, if i was born before christianity, i would've been a jew, because they are all stages, and islam is the last stage, but the reason we don't believe in today's bible and torah because they were changed.


Until now pro was not able to prove these verses\me wrong, saying the stories in the Qu'ran are absurd and no modern, rational mind can believe in an infalliable Qu'ran.

..Is not an argument whats so ever, just like this one too

I have this mental image of Soloman growing a ant sack out of his rear end to acomplish this! Sorry for being superfluous, I can't help it some times :D

Here pro tries to make a joke, Instead of trying to make an actual argument.

Finally this story about magical men than can "talk" to ants

I said in my arguments in round two, that Solomon is a prophet who could understand every creature and the way it communicates, but he couldn't talk to any.

This also proves that pro was not paying attention\ignoring my arguments

Just like when pro also keeps mentioning The ant verse, which i keep telling him every round that it's not a scientific verse and to not bother debating about since it's not related to our debate, but he keeps bringing it up since it's only argument that he has against me.

thanks for reading.
Jevinigh

Pro

Jevinigh forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
TG2333

Con

This is the reason why Jevinigh forfeited that round, she typed it in the comments,
"Taking on a religious fundamentalist was a mistake. I have no respect for your superstitions"

Well this i never heard before(Sarcasm), I heard this multiple times when people don't have anything to say against me, This is basicly saying, I surrender, but in another way, well GG, or in this case it's GD(Good debate), Well lets just listen to this nice song until this debate ends.

https://www.youtube.com...





Jevinigh

Pro

You'll pardon the poor mannerisms, this will be the last time I take on a debate with a relgious context. The ability of a believer to twist words around omit key points is beyond any ability to debate with from a logical standpoint. You, the voter may do as you wish.
Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Jevinigh 3 years ago
Jevinigh
Taking on a religious fundamentalist was a mistake. I have no respect for your superstitions.
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
Or you know what, just don't read it
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
In surah 22:47, *And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, a day with your Lord is like a thousand years of those which you count.*

This is not related to how big the universe is, but it's saying that a day at hell and heaven is 1000 years

also 70:4
The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him(i'm not sure who) during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years, which also not related to how old the universe is, but this is speed of light, since that angels are made of light, they can travel in speed of light

I'm not really sure about the link you gave me, i checked it out, and it seemed pretty good
Posted by POPOO5560 3 years ago
POPOO5560
salam TG... i mean surah 22:47 says 1000 (hereafter) and surah 70:4 says 50000 about The angels and the spirit ascend unto him. now see this http://www.answering-christianity.com...

i just asking if its reliable...
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
Bring me the verse that says 47 and 50,000 years

Also i said in the debate that these 1000 years are not related to our universe, it's heaven and hell days, everyday there is 1000 years
Posted by POPOO5560 3 years ago
POPOO5560
About the age of universe i read another explanation.....

in surah Haj: 47 - day = 1000 years & in surah maarij day = 50.000 years so

365,2422 x 50.000 x 1.000 = 18.26 billion years... anyway its reliable?
Posted by ESocialBookworm 3 years ago
ESocialBookworm
There are verses in the Qur'an that talk about "aliens."
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
Please don't make me write 10,000 words again lol, jk
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
Also the Ants were speaking with each other, and King Solomon was given a miracle which is the Ability to speak to Animals, 27:16-17 "And Solomon inherited David. He said, "O people, we have been taught the language of birds, and we have been given from all things. Indeed, this is evident bounty."And gathered for Solomon were his soldiers of the jinn and men and birds, and they were [marching] in rows."
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
Second argument Pro poses is fallacious, God knew how Ants talk but it was said in Arabic so we can understand, It will not be written in Ant language, and the Qur'an mentions that Ants can communicate, which only was discovered recently ...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by NiqashMotawadi3 3 years ago
NiqashMotawadi3
TG2333JevinighTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:41 
Reasons for voting decision: Interesting debate to read, unfortunately Pro forfeited because he was annoyed with Con's apologetic. From a quick read, it seems Con had more spelling mistakes. I ran the text through my Open Office spell checker and Con seemed to have committed considerably more errors(Con 50+ mistakes, Pro 11-12 mistakes ). Therefore, I'm awarding S&G to Pro on that basis. Pro ended the debate by forfeiting. Therefore, conduct goes to Con. Arguments go to Con as well because some of his objections were ignored by Pro who forfeited one round, and explained why he is not willing to participate in the final round, and as a result, didn't answer many arguments and objections. For instance, Pro's objection that the communication with the Ant was metaphysical, and not grounded by natural laws, was never adequately answered, but termed in the comments as superstitious apologetic, which does not really suffice as a rebuttal and shows misconduct, if anything. Anyhow, good luck to both in future debates.