The Instigator
judaism
Con (against)
The Contender
KJVPrewrather
Pro (for)

Can G-d Become Man: The Divinity of Jesus on Trial

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Debate Round Forfeited
KJVPrewrather has forfeited round #5.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/31/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 231 times Debate No: 106280
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

judaism

Con

Shalom KJVPrewrather,

I am happy to accept this challenge, not because I will convince you or ask you to convert, but because I'm defending the right Judaism holds with Jews worldwide, meaning, I'm doing it for any Jewish reader who happens to be a believer in your Christian faith and stumbles upon this page, to help them see the light.

I hope to hear from you soon,

Justin (Judaism)
KJVPrewrather

Pro

Reference from gotquestions.org: https://www.gotquestions.org...
Question: "How can Jesus be God, when Numbers 23:19 says that God is not a man or a son of man?"

Answer: Some claim that the Old Testament proves that Jesus cannot be God because of Numbers 23:19a, which says, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent" (KJV). The reasoning is that, if God is not a man, then the Christian claim that Jesus, a man, is God is false. Just as troublesome is the fact that Jesus repeatedly calls Himself the "Son of Man" in the gospels (e.g., Mark 14:21).
The Old Testament does indeed teach that God is not a human being, not only in Numbers 23:19 but also in 1 Samuel 15:29 and Hosea 11:9. However, the New Testament shows us that Jesus made claims to be God"and at the same time He calls Himself the "Son of Man," a title that proclaims His humanity. With all this being true, how can we prove that Jesus is God?
Jesus claimed to be both the Son of God and the Son of Man. There are no tricks here. He said that He is God, and He said that He is (at the same time) human. No one had ever said such a thing before. It was strange then, and it is strange now"strange enough for a new term, the hypostatic union. No one will ever fully understand the union of Christ"s divine and human natures, no matter how much we talk about it, define it, or typify it. Therefore, "proof" cannot be obtained. We either believe Jesus, or we do not.
It is critical to understand at this point that the Bible is true in detail and in toto"both the Old and New Testaments. So, when Jesus began teaching new things, the old things did not become untrue; they became unveiled. Remember what He said about the Law: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17). All of Jesus" new revelations work exactly the same way. The old knowledge was shadowy, and, as the Light of the world, Jesus dispelled the shadows (see Colossians 2:16"17). This process is not destructive of the old knowledge"it is instructive, as Philip"s encounter with the Ethiopian shows (Acts 8:30"35).
We must also consider what the Old Testament is really saying about God when it says He is not a human being. The point being made in Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, and Hosea 11:9 is that God does not lie. He is not fickle. His emotions do not change His eternal purposes. This is unlike fallen humanity, who cannot see the big picture, who often breaks promises, and whose feelings often cloud discernment. In other words, the statements that God is not a man are contrasting one aspect of God"s nature with a corresponding part of man"s. Saying, "God is not a man," has nothing to do with whether or not God can ever exist in the flesh.
The Old Testament references to God being unlike man do not apply to Jesus" particular type of humanity. All they are telling us is that God is not a man as we think of men. It"s a contrast, not a restriction. There is nothing that logically prevents God from becoming a man in a whole new way"in fact, redemption requires this, and redemption was God"s plan from before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). Thus, it can be said that God knew He would become a man before Numbers 23:19 was even penned!
If we consider the Old Testament in isolation (which is the Jewish perspective), we shall not likely "prove" that Jesus Christ was man, God, Messiah, and Savior"although the indicators are all there (see Isaiah 53, for example). Christians see the foreshadowing of the God-man in the Old Testament because the New Testament revelation helps interpret the Old Testament references (e.g., Matthew 2:15; cf. Hosea 11:1). This brings up an important fact regarding biblical interpretation: God reveals His truth progressively, over time. He has unfolded His purposes sequentially and as needed over the millennia.
For example, Adam and Eve in their innocence had no need to know about redemption, but after they sinned, then the time was appropriate, and God laid it out for them in Genesis 3:15. That bit of revelation was given at a point in time, but its full meaning did not become clear until after Christ came in the flesh"and as the authors of the New Testament were writing under inspiration. We understand now that Genesis 3:15 points directly to Jesus" atoning death"and this revelation is necessary for us today. But that information was not necessary for Adam and Eve. Their pre-fall ignorance, couched as it was in innocence, was appropriate for them.
In like manner God revealed His will progressively to His people in the Old Testament Scriptures, and those people were responsible to behave in obedience according to where they were on revelation"s timeline. Today, Christians are responsible for all of God"s Word, because we live in a time when it is complete. Additionally, believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there are no excuses for not acknowledging Jesus Christ as God.
Since revelation is progressive, a person"s response to God depends on where he is on the timeline. An Old Testament Jew would have no concept of the God-man, although clues (such as Psalm 110:1) were present. But John the Baptist"s prophecies, followed by Jesus" miracles, were further revelation. In fact, Jesus" miracles were signs to prove who He is: "Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God" (John 20:30"31). People today still need to respond in faith to Jesus" miracles. Those who do not are spiritually blind.
To summarize, God"s statements that He is not a man and Jesus" statements that He is the Son of God coexist as true; they are not in conflict. Revelation is progressive, and Old Testament concepts are more fully developed in the New Testament. Finally, God always had it in mind that the Son would become flesh and dwell among men, so God never "changed His mind" about becoming a man.
From me: John 1:1-2: https://www.biblegateway.com... and John 1:14: https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 1
judaism

Con

Shalom Dana,

I hope you'll alright with me posting a google docs document as opposed to writing it out all here. Simply put, I have 14 pages worth of material discrediting all Jesus has to offer, and it won't fit here.

So here we go!

https://docs.google.com...
KJVPrewrather

Pro

I am visually disabled, please use your own words.
Debate Round No. 2
judaism

Con

Shalom Dana,

I'm sorry - I don't mean to be rude here - but what do you mean by being "visually disabled?"

If you're suggesting I didn't write my last post, that's wrong, I did - I always write original, I'm a blogger, remember? - but I'm human, perhaps I slipped a little or something - but for the most part, its all my own words. If you want me to repost - more like summarize it - that's possible too. I'm also opened to other options, like if you're suggesting a video call or something of that nature to explain my argument. Just let me know either way.

Thanks,

Justin

P.S., regardless, please read it as you've yet to provide any evidence to the contrary.
KJVPrewrather

Pro

It takes me forever to read because I've got permanent damage to my optic nerve. I can read, but with severve limitations. I'm sorry.
Debate Round No. 3
judaism

Con

I don't have time today to post an argument. Perhaps you can try reading my 14 pages bit by bit, or have a friend read aloud? Anyway, at the least, just come up with a few more questions and I'll answer so we can keep this thing lively.
KJVPrewrather

Pro

What do you think of the evidence I presented so far?
Debate Round No. 4
judaism

Con

I already answered every one of them, again, its in the google docs file I sent you. Could you possibly have a friend read it aloud so you can get my refutation and respond?
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by judaism 3 months ago
judaism
Masterful, G-d is not a tyrant, Jews write "G-d" out of respect for the divine name, so if the internet got hacked, or went down, or this site deleted, I would have not desecrated His name. It's done out of respect.
Posted by Masterful 3 months ago
Masterful
HAHAHAHA his God is such a tyrant that he fears typing the word God.
Posted by John_C_1812 3 months ago
John_C_1812
Yes man can be seen as a form of religious GOD. So making Jesus a religious God is not out of the realm of human ability. The argument of Judaism is made over a one religion of GOD. Why this has significant in the United State GOD can be established both as none Religious, and also as Religious in a written Constitutional context. Meaning it cannot be held as religion only to the public. There is Constitutional right to the liberty of none religious representation.

All powers derived to be almighty are capable to be written. As writing is a requirement to the obtainment of well-balanced stable power. It is only the conditions to reading documentation that is ever rusticated, and does not reflect the true power of all mighty. This is the basic principle and foundation of restriction of required witness of legal documents. A democracy need not be forced to bear the burden of witness.
Posted by ANANIGMA 3 months ago
ANANIGMA
I don't recall Jesus ever being quoted in the Bible saying that HE IS GOD. The closest is when he asked Simon who he thought he was, then Simon is said to have called him the Christ, Son of God. Or when he said I and the Father are one, which Christian have formed conjecture. The claim Jesus made was he was the Messiah. It wasn't until 600 years after his death that he was declared divine by the church.
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
@judaism - Don't worry. You are fine. What was presented to you makes no sense and is quite contradictory. Here's why...
- Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?
- top 10 reasons why the bible is repulsive
http://www.youtube.com... god"s plan is ridiculous
Please tc and have fun. Happy New Year also.
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