The Instigator
demonlord343
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Dwint
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Can God exist?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/25/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 775 times Debate No: 46687
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

demonlord343

Pro

God can exist. Im not saying he does. But there is a possibility of his existence. (If you wish to post your beliefs, right in the comments! If you wish to actively discuss, join the debate! Just remember, I dont do this out of emotion. Just for fun. Seriously, take some pleasure out of it)
Dwint

Con

"All-powerful and all-knowing being. That exists outside the universe." If this is how you define god, then god cannot exist.The universe means everything that exists, so existance outside of it is by definition impossible.
Debate Round No. 1
demonlord343

Pro

http://universespirit.org...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

There is evidence of more than one universe. So, is it possible that a being that can exist outside of the universe? Yes, considering there is more than one. Also, what about multidimensions? God is a multidimensional being that exists outside of our own space-time, which allows him to see and know all. God cant exist any other way. He needs to exist fourth-dimension and beyond. Otherwise, we would be able to do something such as theoretically create a universe, something that is within God's theoretical power.
Dwint

Con

I cannot deny the possibility that god exists without any proof regarding his existance, proof that doesn't exist.Hypotheticaly, anything can exist, so I would like to try and reduce the likelihood of its existance as much as possible.
One of the most popular arguments for god's existance is our lack of understanding regarding the beginning of the universe.It is indeed very hard to understand how The Big Bang happened, what caused it or the source of that matter.However, a spaceless, timeless, 4th dimensional, all-knowing, all-powerfull god doesn't make it easier to understand how everything started.If an explosion of matter is unlikely, so is a god.
First, god is the creator of everything, so it means he created himself.A lot of christian debaters say the universe is a creation, therefore there is a creator of the universe(see George Pell vs Richard Dawkins).God is also a creation and demands a creator and in this case he created himself.This is obviously a parodox, because in order to create something you have to exist and you can't exist without being created(according to christian apologetics)
Also, if humans are too complex to have evolved and demand a creator that is more powerfull than humans, doesn't god, who is infinitely more complex than us demand an even more powerfull creator?
The whole concept of god is very unlikely and placing him in other dimensions, universes or realities just makes its existance more unlikely.Thank you and long live the swarm!
Debate Round No. 2
demonlord343

Pro

Eh, God may have not created himself if he is indeed a multidimensional being. For example, if we wanted to make a two-dimensional view or plane, as it is properly called, this plane we can view merely on the screen. Or in a piece of paper. Now, we are third-dimensional beings, and being so, we can also create third-dimensional objects. They can be an assortment of sizes, the objects and planes. Now, a fourth-dimensional being would have senses, thoughts, and manipulation of objects and many other things in science that we can not begin to fathom, with ease. Since he can manipulate these things so easily, he can indeed create something, like you said, we cant possibly begin to understand. At least, how it got here. A good example of something that can create something that is a lesser dimension of itself is a printer. It can make something on a two-dimensional plane with ease. And if you want to debate that it makes his existence more unlikely, I find it finally easier to explain. That way science and a possible religion of sorts, can still coexist. As a matter of, well opinion, doesnt that make the most sense? Out of all that we know? God is something that we can not explain, and there are things in the universe that we can not explain. Is it really that hard to believe that there is a possibility that they can be linked? That they are forces that we can not understand? And yes, an object (third-dimensional thing of existence) can have an effect on a plane. Forces that beings on the second plane could not understand. An example of this is a pencil again through a piece of paper. (Also the reason why im using paper so much is that it is easiest for an example. I can provide others if you wish). Im also open to the idea that there is more than one God. Since, there easily can be more than just one being on one plane. But the reason I argue for now just for the one God, is that im talking about the one that is the theoretical creator of the universe. And hey! Im goin to round five... Good to meet another fan! For the swarm! (also, whats your favorite and/or best race [my fav is zerg, but im best with protoss])
Dwint

Con

It is true we don't know much about the universe, but based on the knowledge we do have, we can make assumptions.For example, we can't be sure there is a black hole in the center of every galaxy, but based on what we know about black holes and galaxies, we can make this assumption, because galaxies forming around a black hole make sense.We can't know for sure aliens exist, as we don't have that knowledge, but again using existing information we can say there has to be life on other planets and even calculate the number of civilizations in our galaxy[1].So, if we don't know exactly what is in the center of our galaxy, we can say it's more likely to be a black hole that a massive star or a nebula.
Saying god is a 4th dimensional entity makes his existence even less likely, because if he is the creator of everything, he is also the creator of the dimensions.If god were a 3rd dimensional entity, we could assume he did not create a 4th dimension at all, but if we treat him as a 4th dimensional entity, then he must have created at least 4 dimensions, which is obviously more complex and hard to do.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
demonlord343

Pro

God is indeed a mutlidimensional being. Since he exists on a higher dimension, the possibility of his existence along with other creators boosts his possibility and the ability for him to create the universe due to the science behind the dimensions. He must be just the creator of our universe. Heaven and hell are two completely different subjects, so thus i will not pursue this being round 4. A being can not create its own dimension. We can not make our own dimension to exist upon. However, a being that already existed can make an object that can exist in an equal or lesser dimension. I have never argued that he is the creator of everything. That is a paradox and impossible. We can use this info that we know to make theories on how a being such as God can exist. Thank you for having me. You have done a great job and this has been fun. Ill cya in round 5..
Dwint

Con

At the start you defined god as "All-powerful and all-knowing being"That means he should be able to create an object in a higher dimension, not just an equal or lesser one.As the number of dimensions in infinite, it's impossible a 4th dimensional being could ever create a 100th dimensional object.If you agree it couldn't create any object in the 5th dimension or up, then you are talking about a "god" with limited powers,so by your definition you can not call him a god, as he is not "all-powerful"
Using your reasoning that "a being that already existed can make an object that can exist in an equal or lesser dimension" we can say that god was also created by either a 4th dimensional being or a 5th or higher dimensional being, making him just a creation that created other objects on his own.I want to push this a little bit and say that according to this we are in a way better than god, as he created objects in a lesser dimension, while we create objects in our own dimension.
So the god you are trying to prove is nothing more than a creation that created something of his own and in my opinion we should not call him god for creating something we can create as well(objects in a equal/lesser dimension) and if we were to assume that our universe was created by a 4th dimensional god that was itself created by a 5th dimensional being and so on we would have an infinite number of god, every one of them less and less likely to exist.
So an absolute creator of everything is extremely unlikely and a creator of only our universe is not a important enough entity to worship.
Debate Round No. 4
demonlord343

Pro

Let me chop up what I originally said. "All-powerful..." Well, an all-powerful being in our universe is what, exactly? Wouldn't you call something that is all-powerful something that could bend our laws of physics at will? I most certainly would. Because anything in a higher dimension will always have power over something in a lower dimension. Now, let me reintroduce my old friend, paper (Yes, this was worded for those with a sense of humor). This paper in its natural state is flat. However, me being in a higher dimension than this plane, I can bend the paper, curve the paper, wrinkle the paper, and tear the paper with ease. I can fold it in half. I can do all sorts of things to this one plane. Things that exist on this plane (There aren't any yet, considering I haven't drawn my stick people yet) would not begin to fathom what I am doing to the paper. "...all-knowing being." When I look at the piece of paper, and I draw something on it, say a dog. I know how it got there, what the laws of physics for the being is, what it is made of, why it is there, etc.
Let's say that our God is located on the fourth-dimension. He can not create a 100th dimensional object. This is true. But the most power one single entity can have is the ability to change the laws of physics of something. Thus, anything above our dimension is all-powerful. The God that I'm trying to prove that can exist is the one that can create our universe, that I have proved to be all-powerful and all-knowing. We can not be compared to God, because he created the universe, and understands how it works. We aren't even close to begin to understand either one of these things. And no, we wouldn't have an infinite number of God, because I am just talking about the one that created our universe. And I never said we should worship him. Never. I don't get worship from the piece of paper. Why should we give worship to God?
Thank you for the debate! Great job, and this was a good debate! I'll cya around! I look forward to your final reply!
Dwint

Con

The "god" you are trying to prove is not a god by any mainstream definition.You defined him as the creator of the universe[1] then described him as the creator of a single universe.You called him all-powerful then limited his powers to the 4th dimension. A god is supposed to be a supreme being, but your god is just a creation (of a bigger god) that created a small part of our dimension.You are arguing that something created our universe.It is unlikely, even for a 4th dimensional being, to create something like this.The universe could be infinite or incredibly large[2].Either way, how could a 4th dimensional being create something like this?Sure, he can create 3rd dimensional objects, but how could he create an infinite object?Let's take your examples with the paper.Could we ever, as 3rd dimensional beings create an infinite 2nd dimensional object?Could we ever create a infinite sheet of paper? Or can we create a sheet of paper that is as big as the Earth?
I said in the 2nd round I would try to make god's existence very unlikely, so let's look at the odds.A 4th dimensional being could exist.Assume that our whole universe is a giant or infinite cube.The odds of a simple 4th dimensional being (simple, because it was created by someone and only has absolute power over 3rd or lower dimensions) creating a infinite cube are equal to the odds of humankind ever creating an infinite sheet of paper.There is still a possibility that our universe is not infinite.
Even if we assume a 4th dimensional being would be able to create such a huge object, where did the resources come from? If we want to try and make a sheet of paper the size of our galaxy, we would need a huge number of trees and factories to make that paper.No matter how you look at it, an entity with no infinite powers is incredibly unlikely to
be able to create something as complex and huge as our universe.
Thank you for this debate.It's been a pleasure debating with you.Good job and good luck!

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2]http://www.esa.int...
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by demonlord343 3 years ago
demonlord343
Just to be clear, I read the interview.. I believe your information, being from 2001, to be outdated. You will find that more current studies show that the universe could not be infinite.
http://www.hawking.org.uk...
Posted by Rsaysrawr 3 years ago
Rsaysrawr
I am an atheist, though there is no proof that god doesn't exist, so, that means that without proof that God does exist, there is no right or wrong here. We can never know. I think that this argument will last as long as humanity does...
Posted by ninjakiwi0717 3 years ago
ninjakiwi0717
God exists because the Bible says so.
Posted by Actionsspeak 3 years ago
Actionsspeak
I think you'll find that the universe covers everything.
Posted by Actionsspeak 3 years ago
Actionsspeak
I think you'll find that the universe covers everything.
Posted by demonlord343 3 years ago
demonlord343
All-powerful and all-knowing being. That exists outside the universe.
Posted by Zaradi 3 years ago
Zaradi
Possibility means no one is going to accept this.
Posted by zmikecuber 3 years ago
zmikecuber
Define "God."
No votes have been placed for this debate.