The Instigator
dwill557
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
Jhate
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Can Vick Be Trusted?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
dwill557
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2012 Category: Sports
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,303 times Debate No: 26576
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

dwill557

Con

The Philadelphia Eagles have been in the NFL since 1933 and they haven"t ever had as many fumbles, in the first five games, as they do this year (2012). They have had 15 fumbles so far this season, 11 of them from Vick. Michael Vick, as of right now, cannot be trusted. The Eagles have trusted him to lead them to victory for the past 4 years, but we the fans believe the time for trust is over; he has proven so far this season that he cannot be consistent; he cannot show up on Sundays, Mondays, or Thursdays ready to play and with his head in the game. Vick has shown so far this season that he cannot take a hit and HANG ON TO THE BALL!!! He needs to either learn how to take a hit and handle the ball or just stop running every chance he gets. He has proved to us in the past that he knows how to run and execute the play, but as of this season he has shown us that he has either lost his talent or just given up.
He has made 8 touchdown throws, but he has also thrown 8 interceptions. He has thrown for 1,632 yards and has an average throwing accuracy of 58.9%. He has taken 17 sacks and has lost 90 yards from those sacks. His longest pass was a 70 yard touchdown throw. He has ran for 205 yards and has an average yards per run of 5.0. He has 1 rushing touchdown and his longest run is 20 yards. He has an overall rating of 77.0.
Some believe those are not horrible stats but they"re not good either. What do you think?
"That"s almost frustrating," Lesean McCoy, Eagles running back, who rushed for only 53 yards in their loss against the Pittsburgh Steelers last Sunday, "That contributed to the loss. You need to at least score three. If we get seven it"s a different ball game. We have to stop it."
"We have to stop it" is what the Eagles have been saying for almost 5 weeks now. They need to either work around the fumble problem or get it taken care of. If they don"t this season could turn out to be a nightmare for both the team and the fans.
YES
"As I sit here today he is the starting quarterback," Eagles head coach, Andy Reid, said, "I"m going through and evaluating everything. I"m looking at everything--everyone and everything."
Really? Is that what you"re going to say about all of this? If you were really looking at, and evaluating everything then you would see that you need to have a substitute for Vick every game. If he screws up you send in the sub, it"s that easy.
"Brett Favre has fumbled a total of 166 times during a professional career during which he set numerous records, but none that might stand as long as that one." Bob Ford of Philly.com posted, "Not counting however many balls he dropped while playing touch football in Wrangler jeans, Favre is the all-time NFL fumbler, one of only three men in the leagues long history to put it on the ground more than 150 times. When Favre is remembered over time, though, the fumbles probably won"t be what comes to mind."
You"re thinking in the past, this is the present. We could agree with you but that"s Brett Favre, one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. You don"t see Vick in the record books now do you? Yeah, that"s what I thought. He had better stop the fumbles and start the touchdowns or he"s going to be remembered as one of the worst quarterbacks of all time.
Vick"s thought on the Subject
"I haven't had a fumbling problem before," Vick said after Sunday night's game against the Steelers.
LIES!!! Think back about 6 years ago, and the years before that when you were playing with the Falcons. What do you have to say about that? You"ve just improved over the years and now you"re just taking a huge drop in stats. "I haven"t had a fumbling problem before", hah, whatever.
No!!!
"One of the most important duties an NFL quarterback must fulfill is the task of being a leader." Garry Cobb of Gcobb.com posted, "First of all he has to be a leader during the game and secondly he has to be a leader after the game. Eagle"s quarterback made the mistake of coughing up the ball and quadrupled the problem by refusing to take responsibility after the game.
He needs to do a better job running with the ball secured under his arms. He needs to cover up both points of the ball and put two hands around it."
Yes!!! That is the truth and nothing but the truth. He needs to either pass more often or control the fumbles. We see him come out on game day fired up and ready to play but when he gets out there on the field he acts as if he"s not really there. He needs to come out ready to take a hit because teams are coming out thinking they're going to hit him hard and he"s going to cough up the ball.
"QB Michael Vick had three fumbles, two of them lost, on Sunday." Brian Billick of foxsports.com posted, "But why is he running QB draws on the goal line if he is so prone to red-zone turnovers in the first place? If I have a running back like Lesean McCoy I give it to him as much as possible, especially on first-and-goal."
This is true, but he"s not just prone near the red-zone. He has been fumbling all over the field. Yeah, he fumbles in the red-zone but they can"t just worry about that. They need to get it all taken care of or they"re going to see yet another loss on Sunday.
"Lesean McCoy is a premier running back in the league." Chris Chase of USAtoday.com posted, "Desean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin are a potent receiving duo. Giving Vick"s knack for getting injured and his propensity for putting the ball on the turf, calling his number is like playing with fire, if fire had slippery hands that led to drop things."
Thank you, finally someone notices what the Eagles can and should do. They shouldn"t give Vick the ball as often, they should give it to Lesean McCoy more often. He is an excellent runner and knows how to handle the ball. If they"re going to give Vick the ball they need to have him throwing it. If they want him running, since he is pretty good at running and avoiding a tackle, they should have him running toward and down the sideline or they need to teach him to just slide when he"s about to take a hit and he"s not going to take care of the ball. Desean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin are excellent receivers and know how to catch and handle the ball. They can both take a hit and give a hit. They have proved that they are worthy of getting the ball. Vick needs to worry less about the defense and look out at his receivers more often. Once he learns to do this he will be able to become one of the greats; until then, he is still an average QB in my eyes, and no one remembers the averages.
Michael Vick"s first season with the Eagles was a good one and the season after it was even better, his best actually, and his third season was ok, but it has all gone downhill from there. Vick is inconsistent and cannot hold on to the ball. He hit the climax of his career when he signed with the Eagles and it has all been falling action from there. In a couple of years he will hit the resolution of his career and that will be it. He either needs to stop what he"s doing or just start a new story. Otherwise, he is already finished.
Jhate

Pro

I accept the debate. I will argue Vick can be trusted and that it is also not his fault for all his problems. Lets take a look at some of the factors in this. First Vick has really only been trusted for 3 years.

The 2009-2010 Season
he did not play much due to injury so that year should not be factored in this as he only had 13 passes total that season.

The 2010-2011 Season Micheal vick was actually very consistent throwing 21 touchdowns and only 6 intereceptions and having a rating of 100.2 and a completion percent of 62.6. This was his year coming back from injury and his first full year with the Eagles. The Eagles finished with a 10-6 record and made it to the playoffs. They lost to the packers in the playoffs. So thats one winning season that included a visit to the playoffs for Vick. His first full year with the Eagles. He also played only 12 of those games. Now week 17, Vick did not play and the Eagles lost. Week 7 and Week 4 were also losses and those were the game Kevin Kolb played in. So Vick accounted for 3 of those 6 loses and Kolb accounted for 3 of those loses as well. Vick was sacked 34 times and fumbled 11 while losing only 3 of those fumbled whether it was a lineman recovering it or Vick himself, they still only lost 3. Vick had a good season with the Eagles.

The 2011-2012 Season Michael Vick had 18 touchdowns and 14 interceptions. Vick was however 59.8 percentage completion rating. He still mounted an 84.9 rating. Vick played 13 games and finished with an 8-8 season. Not a losing season however; it was a downfall. Vick fumbled 10 times, losing 4 of them. They finished second in the division and missed the playoffs.

The 2012-2013 Season (Current) Vick has 9 touchdowns and 8 interceptons. We have yet to see what he can do but he has fumbled 9 times and lost 5.

Conclusion Concerning Vicks Seasons
Vick did not play the 2009-2010 season. Really the 2010 and 2011 seasons are the only one Vick has succesfully played. So the Eagles have trusted him 3 seasons (He is not done playing this season) but he has had only 2 oppurtunities to make his mark in which he mounted a winning season and a playoff shot and an even 8-8 season. Now what i have seen from my opponents statement is Vick needs to hold onto the ball ("Vick has shown so far this season that he cannot take a hit and HANG ON TO THE BALL!!!" Vick has never had a good offensive line. Sure Vick is a good scrambler in fact most likely any other quarterback who can not scarmble or play like vick would be sacked more. Vick gets out of the pocket and tries to make throws or runs to avoid getting sacked so yea hes going to get hit. The Eagles have Lesean Mcoy one of the best RBs in the league who played phenomonal last season. When the Eagles played the worst run defense in the league (The Falcons) Mcoy could not average 3 yards per carry. This just lets you know they struggled with the offensive line.

Desean Jackson Factor
How effect is Desean Jackson? Last year there was a big hold out and Jackson did not play to his potential. In 2011 Jackson dropped 25 passes. Ranked 5th in dropped passes in the NFL.Because he was waiting for the long term deal it obviosuly affected his play. So when Vick only has Maclin (who i will agree is a good reciver) and other not so experiecned recivers its difficult to throw to.

Injury
Vick has had multiple injuries due to the line not blocking for him and due to multiple late hits and its hard to hold on to the ball when you get hit so many times. Vick has multiple injuries that really affects him.

Other things to take in to consideration.
Vick can be trusted, he took the Eagles to the playoffs his first full active year even though he only played 12 games and they lost 3 of the 6 when kevin kolb was in.

Eagles play in the toughest division in the NFL. The NFC east has the most super bowls among any division. Vick has done well given the division he is playing in.

Michael Vick can be trusted. This is only his 3rd year with the Eagles. Yes i know your thinking "well he played with the falcons its not like its his rookie year" Well he has had to adapt to the Eagles team. The falcons do very well at protecting Matt ryan, Vick dosent always scramble for yards. Most make it out to seem like all he does is run. Alot of time he has to break free but he still has a high completion percentage.

I beleive once the line gets better, the recievers follow through, and Vick stays healthy that the Eagles will have a huge shot and that Vick can indeed be trusted.

Rebuttals
1. Stated: "QB Michael Vick had three fumbles, two of them lost, on Sunday." Brian Billick of foxsports.com posted, "But why is he running QB draws on the goal line if he is so prone to red-zone turnovers in the first place? If I have a running back like Lesean McCoy I give it to him as much as possible, especially on first-and-goal."

Why should they? When McCoy can not even average 3 yards per carry against Atlantas awful run defense?

2. Stated:Desean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin are excellent receivers and know how to catch and handle the ball. They can both take a hit and give a hit.

Again Jackson dropped 25 passses in 2011 and was the 5th highest in dropped passes.


3. Stated: Michael Vick"s first season with the Eagles was a good one

Correction, Michael Vick missed most of his first season it was his second season that was his best.




Now here is a video i will point out key points about how my opponent said
"Vick needs to worry less about the defense and look out at his receivers more often"

This example is clear evidence that Vick has to watch the defense because they are not only blocking his view but they are getting to him so quick.

https://www.youtube.com...

Pause it at :52, as soon as Vick does play action his view is completely smothered by linemen getting beat off the ball
Notice how he makes room and looks downfield and makes a good pass that his receiver gave up on.

1:09 he probably did not need to run but he also had time to throw and see the field so something must not have been open

1:14 Vick makes a big play that dosent cost his team, he feels pressure contiunes to look down the field sees the opening and takes it

2:04 Vick takes alot of pressure and gets free, good play by Vick he still looked downfield

2:20, number 79 gives up his block so Vick can not just stand and throw so he scrambles

These are just a few examples of Vicks abliity as a quarterback and that it is not his fault


https://www.youtube.com...

^ This is from the Cardinals game this season. How is this fumble Vicks fault? My opponent is saying he should watch the defense but look how fast he is hit.

Vick can be trusted definitely. The Eagles as a team have more issues regarding Receivers, Rushing, and O-line than just Michael Vick.


http://sports.yahoo.com...;(Michael Vicks statistics)
Debate Round No. 1
dwill557

Con

As I have said, Michael Vick has a fumbling problem and needs to get it fixed. He can either stop running as much or learn to take a hit!!! I hate to say this because I am a HUGE fan of Michael Vick and have been for about the past 5 years. I have been an Eagle fan almost my whole life so it hurts me when I say that they are not having a very productive season.
Now to the subject on which you stated that Desean Jackson was the one who cannot be trusted. I have found this video and I would like you to watch it. It is of Jackson's 2012 season in which you stated he did not do well in. In this video you will see that Desean Jackson has made plays in the past and still makes them today.

Now to the situation on which you said that vick can indeed be trusted. Can he really? I believe he cannont because of his fumbling habits. I agree, he is an excellent passer but that is not going to help him with his fumbles. Vick's stats prove that he cannot hold onto the ball and make plays when the team most needs it. In the site that you lead me to, it showed that vick indeed had to many fumbles in his last two fumbles. This season worst than his last. Here is a video that I insist you watch for it shows how Vick's fumbling problem has effected his game. In this video you will see how Vick's fumbling problem costs them yet another loss to the Minnisota Vikings. You will see how he runs with the ball unprotected on both points.

Lesean McCoy is an excellent runner and deserves the ball more often than he gets it. You stated how he had bad stats but that is because of the line, they don't give him a chance. It's not his fault.
Once again I will say that Vick needs to look down the field more often. I will also say that he needs to learn how to protect the ball and cover both points.
Jhate

Pro

"In this video you will see that Desean Jackson has made plays in the past and still makes them today."

Yes but last year was Vicks worst season with the Eagles and it also happned to be a bad season for Jackson. In vicks first year playing, Jackson was good but when Jackson drops passess like he did last year Vick has a bad year not being able to throw to his receivers with trust. Can Vick throw to a reciver he cant trust to catch it?

"I insist you watch for it shows how Vick's fumbling problem has effected his game. In this video you will see how Vick's fumbling problem costs them yet another loss to the Minnisota Vikings. You will see how he runs with the ball unprotected on both points."


This video s hows Vick fumbling on a scarmble. As a quarterback you are not trusted to run the ball, you are trusted to throw. Yea he fumbled but that is just one or two examples as compared to bad blocking from the line.

"Lesean McCoy is an excellent runner and deserves the ball more often than he gets it. You stated how he had bad stats but that is because of the line, they don't give him a chance. It's not his fault."

As an NFL running back it is your job to make every play count. The last two games Mccoy has averaged 2.5 per carry. They give him a chance but he is not making the most of it. He has had 127 rushes. He averages about 18 carries per game.



Further Review
"Once again I will say that Vick needs to look down the field more often"

I showed several things that show Vick getting pressured and he still looks down the field in an attempt to make a play. He can again be trusted but his line and receivers cant always.


Things that affect Vicks performance

1. Bad offensive line- we have seen how the pressure is getting to him and how he is taking big hits.

2. Lesean Mccoy not at full effort- This once again goes back to the line and that Mccoy is not making the most of his 2.5 per carry.

3. Receivers not reliable- last year Vicks worst year Jackson was 5th in the league in dropped passess

4. Due to bad protection Vick is getting hit alot causign injury which is not his fault he can not stay healthy. Every quarterback has to have protection

5. Fumbles- Yes Vick fumbles alot and should hold the ball better. Alot of his fumbles are caused from him scarmbling and when he scrambles he still holds the ball like he is going to throw it because he is still looking downfield. Vick is trying not to run so much and he trys to get space and make a throw.



With all this Vick is still maintaining a pretty ok career. Not many realize that there are other things around Vick that are greatly affecting his performance. I beleive Vick can be trusted. You can trust Vick to make good throws and make a play and that is what he does. He has done that many times. He has some flaws but there are others that make people think he can not be trusted when he can.
Debate Round No. 2
dwill557

Con

"Yes but last year was Vicks worst season with the Eagles and it also happned to be a bad season for Jackson."
I have a question for you; have you thought about what you said? "Last year was Vick's worst season and it also happened to be a bad year for Jackson;" could it be that Jackson had a bad season because of Vick? Yes, yes it could. As you said, last year was Vick's worst season, it was also one of Jackson's very few bad seasons. Jackson rarely ever has a bad season. He has had a bad season with Vick before but you didn't see Vick dropping in stats like he did last year. Last year was Vick's worst seasn and that is his fault, not Jackson's.
"As a quarterback you are not trusted to run the ball, you are trusted to throw."
As a quarterback you are trusted to throw, but you have to be able to avoid a sack to. Vick can avoid a sack but when you fumble the way he does I would much rather take a sack than to give up the ball. When you put the ball on the ground as much as he does you cost your team a win and it is not easy to win without a quarterback that can make plays, not give them up!
"As an NFL running back it is your job to make every play count."
It is your job as an NFL running back tko make every play count, but can you really make plays when you have a line like the Eagles do? It is difficult to make any plays but he does. He makes plays any chance he gets. He has taken the Eagles further than they have ever gone before and will continue to make plays for them.
"last year Vicks worst year Jackson was 5th in the league in dropped passess."
Jackson was 5th in the league in dropped passess, but when Vick is launching passess at you like he does Jackson it's not easy to catch them. As a reciever I know that when a quarterback throws a ball at you as hard as he can it is not easy to catch. I have had plenty of moments where I cannot catch the ball because of how fast it is coming at me. Many people believe that it is the recievers fault for dropping it but only a reciever can actually know how hard it is. It is not easy.
"when he scrambles he still holds the ball like he is going to throw it because he is still looking downfield."
This may be true but when he crosses the line of scrimmage he should tuck the ball away, yet he doesn't. This is why he has as many fumbles as he does. He needs to cover up the ball when he runs or he needs to just stop running all together. He has made plays but they do not make up for the plays that he has had that has cost him the game. He needs to learn how to protect the ball and take a hit.
Michael Vick has had good plays and he has had bad plays. But the bad plays are what will be remembered for they have cost him and his team wins all season long.
Against the Steelers the Eagles were close to winning when Vick fumbled at the goaline costing them the game. This is just one of many ways that he has lost a game for his team. He has done it in the past but never as bad as he has this year.





Jhate

Pro

Rebuttals
"could it be that Jackson had a bad season because of Vick? Yes, yes it could. As you said, last year was Vick's worst season, it was also one of Jackson's very few bad seasons. Jackson rarely ever has a bad season. He has had a bad season with Vick before but you didn't see Vick dropping in stats like he did last year. Last year was Vick's worst seasn and that is his fault, not Jackson's."

My opponent said could it have been because of vick that Jackson had a bad season? The answer is Vick is the one throwing the ball. It is up to the receiver to catch it. How is it vicks fault Jackson dropped 25 passess. That is my point in that

Jackson rarely has a bad season?
WRONG Jackson has been in the league 4 years prior to this year and only 2 of those years he broke 1,000 yards. He has never had over 1,200 yards. Sure 900+ yards is a good season but he is not a premier receiver like others.

"As a quarterback you are trusted to throw, but you have to be able to avoid a sack to. Vick can avoid a sack but when you fumble the way he does I would much rather take a sack than to give up the ball. When you put the ball on the ground as much as he does you cost your team a win and it is not easy to win without a quarterback that can make plays, not give them up! "


I pointed out Vick often fumbles because he s blindsided as seen in the cardinal game and others, and that Vick avoids plenty of sacks as seen in the Rams video. Also i pointed out the Eagles regain more fumbles than they lose. Vick has lost 12 fumbles out of 30. Which means they regain ore fumbles than lost so Vick does not always give up a fumble.

"it is your job as an NFL running back tko make every play count, but can you really make plays when you have a line like the Eagles do? It is difficult to make any plays but he does. He makes plays any chance he gets. He has taken the Eagles further than they have ever gone before and will continue to make plays for them."

My opponent pointed out that the Eagles have a bad line so how can you blame the unexpected hits taht cause fumbles on Vick. The pressure obviously gets to him. You said "He makes any plays any chance he gets" So your saying he can be trusted to make plays which means he can be trusted to win games.

"As a reciever I know that when a quarterback throws a ball at you as hard as he can it is not easy to catch. I have had plenty of moments where I cannot catch the ball because of how fast it is coming at me. Many people believe that it is the recievers fault for dropping it but only a reciever can actually know how hard it is. It is not easy. "


Vick is an NFL quarterback, Jackson is an NFL receiver, You said it yourself Jackson has good seasons so he must be used to catching passess like that right? This statement is opinionated, you may play for high school, or maybe college but your not an NFL receiver, Pros are exepcted to play higher than college and high school you can not say "i know how hard it is" because it does not matter because this is about a pro quarterback and pro receiver.

"This may be true but when he crosses the line of scrimmage he should tuck the ball away, yet he doesn't. This is why he has as many fumbles as he does. He needs to cover up the ball when he runs or he needs to just stop running all together."

Vick has been tackled plenty of times past the line of scrimage and has not fumbled. Most of his fumbles occur in the backfield due to the bad line

Overall points
Vick can be trusted to make plays and get the Eagles wins. I beleive i defended my side well and my opponent helped defend it as well. My main reasons Vick can be trusted were:

-Not all of the problems are his fault
-He took the Eagles to the playoffs in his first active year
-He has not had a losing season in the 2 seasons he played (8-8) (10-6)
-He can make plays

Problems that affect Vick that affect his performance
Mccoys poor running game this season, already averaging 2.5 in the last two games. They have given him his shot.

Bad o-line opponents statement- "but can you really make plays when you have a line" Agrees Eagles have a bad oline so this greatly affects Vick not whether or not you can trust him

Receivers- Vicks worst season he was coming off a playoff season where he played well, Jackson dropped 25 passess, this affects whether Vick can truly trust his receivers to catch the ball

Conclusion
Vick has made plays like my opponent said. My opponent did not deny that Mccoy was not playing well when i stated his 2.5 average in the last two games. Also Vick has not had a losing season with the Eagles to deem him untrustworthy. These are the reasons that Vick can be trusted i say give him a chance.

Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by dwill557 4 years ago
dwill557
I agree with you TheHunter. I am a big fan of Mike Vick as well, but as you said, he cannot be trusted. I wish there was a way for him to step up, but as of right now that is not going to happen.
Posted by dwill557 4 years ago
dwill557
I agree with you TheHunter. I am a big fan of Mike Vick as well, but as you said, he cannot be trusted. I wish there was a way for him to step up, but as of right now that is not going to happen.
Posted by TheHunter 4 years ago
TheHunter
No, and the eagles may sneak into the POs but they won't get far.
Hurts my feelings to say it because he's one of my favorite players, but that's just the truth. He's too unstable.
Posted by Ore_Ele 4 years ago
Ore_Ele
He can be trusted... to fumble the ball a lot. SEMANTICS FOR THE WIN!
Posted by DontTreadOnMe 4 years ago
DontTreadOnMe
Zaradi, 964 Characters Remaining.
Posted by Zaradi 4 years ago
Zaradi
Can someone character check this? It might just look long on my phone but it looks really long.
Posted by Zaradi 4 years ago
Zaradi
Can someone character check this? It might just look long on my phone but it looks really long.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Billdekel 4 years ago
Billdekel
dwill557JhateTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: con made the evidence clear,vick cannot be trusted!