Can You Be Gay and Christian?
Debate Rounds (5)
3. Each debater gets to ask questions of the other.
4. Answers questions.
5. Closing statements.
I am a heterosexual, but the strangest thing about myself is that I am straight, but a Christian who supports gays and even gay marriage. My position is that the bible does not condemn or shun gay people who are willing to live a committed life to Christ, is in a committed relationship with their lover, and doesn't fall to paganism. I believe you can be a Christian and gay at the same time without compromising scripture. And for that I will explain my arguments involving the OT and NT.
Leviticus of course mentions gay sex as a sin (Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13.) Leviticus 20:13 even goes as far as to say you should kill those who do this act. The bible also condemns several other things that suffers from the death penalty (http://www.lipstickalley.com......). Now note that in Leviticus 18 and 20 with verse 1 on both chapters, God states he is speaking unto Moses and his people. Verse 1-5 states "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God. 3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God. 5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord." This is from Leviticus 18, but the pattern is similar. This is what Christians should know is called the Ritual Law. Different from the Moral Law. The Ritual Law was for Moses' covenant and the Messiah. Moses broke the covenant when he broke his staff for water, disobeying God. But Jesus came and fulfilled the law, even saying we were to eat things considered abominations. Eagles, shellfish and pigs were considered abominations. They weren't evil, but the act was evil in a sense because it had been affiliated with pagans. God wanted his nation to be one separate from other nations. So Leviticus no longer applies to us.
Genesis may have made the famous saying, "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", but God also offered animals as the help met for Adam. Look in Genesis 2 where God brings up every creature and offers them to Adam to name. When he exhausted the resources, he then gave him Eve, which then ended with the moral of "when your married, time to leave the parent's nest and mate." Note that also, no gay marriages existed because no gays asked for it back then.
Up next is Romans 1. I will only say this. If you read it's entirety, the chapter condemns paganism and idol worship. It's just obvious. And sex was used as such. In one of Aleister Crowley's diaries, he had women who came over with children and then they engaged in sex acts together. This was Romans 1. Because their sex was in worship of Satanism. If two people of the same sex commit in a sex act, they can be Christian if they use condoms, lubrication and are not honoring pagan gods. Philo of Alexandria addressed something close to this issue. Philo of Alexandria discusses in his Special Laws III book that the greatest evil known to him is the love of boys, especially since pedophilia slave markets were common in Rome.
1 Corinthians and Timothy address the word of Arsenokoite which some believe to be the word for homosexual. There is a big debate because many words translate into boy slaves, abusers of themelves with mankind, homosexuals, prostitutes, etc. So what does it mean. Well Arseno means male and koites means bed. So is it condemning male beds that won't inherit the kingdom of heaven? No, but we must think what's the context. The context is this based on how I am reading it. I believe abusers of themselves with mankind is self abusing, but if it is referring to male sex, it has to still be the prostitution issue. I'm sure most honest gays (especially Christian ones) would be against pedophiles. Another word is effeminate. And note effeminate in greek is malokoi, which means soft. The definition has also changed around for a while, but it's used elsewhere in the bible to describe people of "soft" clothing. This was the rich people who wore fine clothing and applied make up to show off their wealth and money status. This is the rich people James condemned in his epistle and what Jesus was against.
That is my opening statements, I hope to have a good debate with whoever follows up. ^^
Romans 1:18-32New International Version (NIV)
God"s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God"s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
I quote this from the book of Romans and biblegateway.com
God created sex to be within marriage so if you're really a christian, you wouldn't have sex out of marriage gay or not.
Ephesians 5:25-26 says "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and hgave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by ithe washing of water with the word"
Also since you would not have gay sex outside of marriage if you're really a christian and also since marriage is the union between a man and a woman you couldn't even call gay marriage because it's not marriage therefore unless you believe in sex outside of marriage being gay and christian is not impossible.
And also note how it talks about it as EVIL and WICKED in the book of Romans.
I agree, sex outside of marriage is harmful. But we marriage is not between one man and one woman. David and Solomon had 100s of wives.
Sex is not just for marriage, but pleasure. He gives that pleasurable feeling so that when the mating is occurring, they can have this reward of pleasure in return. The shame comes when you abuse sex. It's the same shame from stealing, killing, lying, etc.
Anyways, I think we got enough out there. Up next I will use R3 to ask Con some questions while Con can use R3 to ask me some questions, while we use R4 to answer and explain our answers. So pretty much, doing 1 Peter 3:15 in a sense.
1. Do you consider the bible to be a book meant only for the layman and that intellectual people should stop looking at it too deep like theologians do?
2. Have you ever considered re reading the passages I have mentioned in your life, with the intent of biblical study applying hermeneutics, history and theology?
3. If somebody is gay and commits their life to celibacy, no marriages or dating, and pursues a career to be with the Lord, would you say this person enters into the kingdom of heaven? Just to clarify, you are still gay even if you still like guys and have no feelings whatsoever for women.
4. What do you think a gay person is exactly?
5. What evidence or argument would I need to provide to change your mind if this said evidence or argument existed?
Once again, wait until Round 4 to answer questions, but ask me questions in Round 3. I will let you refute my rebuttals above my questions if you'd like. Fair is fair after all.
You yourself said that BEFORE that they were PAGAN before the book of Romans. And Also the Book of Romans cracks down on gay marriage severely
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Key phrase: While we wer still sinners.
Do you think that grace of God is a license to sin or a chance to do better?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
God does love all people but salvation is a way of cleansing ourselves so that we may have a relationship with God. NOT a way to get away with sin.
Q1. "Are you trying to say that being gay and Christian is not a sin, or are you trying to say that it's ok to sin?"
A: Alright, I am going to say yes to the first part of your question, but I am not advocating that it's ok to sin entirely. I am saying that our works should not be emphasized. The Apostle Paul definitely said Grace was what saved us, not our works. He does say that our works define our character, so I think that's an important lesson, but it shouldn't affect our salvation. We are all still sinners til this day, but we are forgiven when we accept Christ. When many people here the word repent, they think "stop sinning" but in it's use, it means to have a change of mind (source: http://www.biblestudytools.com...). Now while I don't think being gay is a sin, I believe gay pride, pride parades and the lifestyle of multiple sex partners and one night stands are sins in the gay community. I believe if a gay person abandons that life, gets a committed partner, practices sex safely, raises a good kid and lives as a Chrsitian, that person will be in heaven. If they don't have a family, then all that person needs to do is repent his old life and be a Christian. The gospel alone can change one's mind and causes it to be renewed and transformed.
Q2. "Do you think that grace of God is a license to sin or a chance to do better?"
A: This is a good question, especially since some skeptics ask it. To me, grace of God removes the weight of the burden that sin has, but while it's wages are still death physically, emotionally and spiritually, we can still be healed when we try to do better. So I think it's about being given a second chance. The fact that we can actually try to get back up from our falls instead of God burying us. Back then, if we messed up, God buried us. But when Jesus died, he would allow the hole to still be open so we can get up. And Jesus would also be there to help us up as well. You don't know how many times 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is brought up on me. I tell them to read the entire context. Especially the next verse. "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." We were breakers of the ten commandments, but we are justified through Grace. We just keep the ten commandments because it shows us what sin is. But I will ask this. If salvation is a way of having a relationship with God, but not to get away with sin, then by your logic, you should not have to get away from your sins, nor me for mine. We have gotten away with our sins because once Jesus died, God would be able to turn his back on our sins after washing them away. It's merely a matter of if you truly repent for those sins.
benjacannada56 forfeited this round.
ChristianPunk forfeited this round.
benjacannada56 forfeited this round.
No votes have been placed for this debate.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.