The Instigator
ChristianPunk
Pro (for)
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The Contender
benjacannada56
Con (against)
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0 Points

Can You Be Gay and Christian?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/3/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,033 times Debate No: 69387
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (23)
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ChristianPunk

Pro

1. OP statements
2. Rebuttals
3. Each debater gets to ask questions of the other.
4. Answers questions.
5. Closing statements.

I am a heterosexual, but the strangest thing about myself is that I am straight, but a Christian who supports gays and even gay marriage. My position is that the bible does not condemn or shun gay people who are willing to live a committed life to Christ, is in a committed relationship with their lover, and doesn't fall to paganism. I believe you can be a Christian and gay at the same time without compromising scripture. And for that I will explain my arguments involving the OT and NT.

Leviticus of course mentions gay sex as a sin (Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13.) Leviticus 20:13 even goes as far as to say you should kill those who do this act. The bible also condemns several other things that suffers from the death penalty (http://www.lipstickalley.com......). Now note that in Leviticus 18 and 20 with verse 1 on both chapters, God states he is speaking unto Moses and his people. Verse 1-5 states "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God. 3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God. 5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord." This is from Leviticus 18, but the pattern is similar. This is what Christians should know is called the Ritual Law. Different from the Moral Law. The Ritual Law was for Moses' covenant and the Messiah. Moses broke the covenant when he broke his staff for water, disobeying God. But Jesus came and fulfilled the law, even saying we were to eat things considered abominations. Eagles, shellfish and pigs were considered abominations. They weren't evil, but the act was evil in a sense because it had been affiliated with pagans. God wanted his nation to be one separate from other nations. So Leviticus no longer applies to us.

Genesis may have made the famous saying, "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", but God also offered animals as the help met for Adam. Look in Genesis 2 where God brings up every creature and offers them to Adam to name. When he exhausted the resources, he then gave him Eve, which then ended with the moral of "when your married, time to leave the parent's nest and mate." Note that also, no gay marriages existed because no gays asked for it back then.

Up next is Romans 1. I will only say this. If you read it's entirety, the chapter condemns paganism and idol worship. It's just obvious. And sex was used as such. In one of Aleister Crowley's diaries, he had women who came over with children and then they engaged in sex acts together. This was Romans 1. Because their sex was in worship of Satanism. If two people of the same sex commit in a sex act, they can be Christian if they use condoms, lubrication and are not honoring pagan gods. Philo of Alexandria addressed something close to this issue. Philo of Alexandria discusses in his Special Laws III book that the greatest evil known to him is the love of boys, especially since pedophilia slave markets were common in Rome.

1 Corinthians and Timothy address the word of Arsenokoite which some believe to be the word for homosexual. There is a big debate because many words translate into boy slaves, abusers of themelves with mankind, homosexuals, prostitutes, etc. So what does it mean. Well Arseno means male and koites means bed. So is it condemning male beds that won't inherit the kingdom of heaven? No, but we must think what's the context. The context is this based on how I am reading it. I believe abusers of themselves with mankind is self abusing, but if it is referring to male sex, it has to still be the prostitution issue. I'm sure most honest gays (especially Christian ones) would be against pedophiles. Another word is effeminate. And note effeminate in greek is malokoi, which means soft. The definition has also changed around for a while, but it's used elsewhere in the bible to describe people of "soft" clothing. This was the rich people who wore fine clothing and applied make up to show off their wealth and money status. This is the rich people James condemned in his epistle and what Jesus was against.

That is my opening statements, I hope to have a good debate with whoever follows up. ^^
benjacannada56

Con

The Bible says that it is wrong and here is why:

Romans 1:18-32New International Version (NIV)

God"s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God"s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I quote this from the book of Romans and biblegateway.com
Debate Round No. 1
ChristianPunk

Pro

I don't know how I should address this. It's like you didn't even bother refuting my statements on Romans 1. Note that Romans is addressed to the Romans, which were worshipping several roman/greek goddesses that were fertility goddesses. Such names are Venus, Cybele, and Aphrodite. Each of these goddesses would only be worshipped through means of sexual activity that seemed unnatural because it was artificial sex through all forms of self abuse such as chastisement, aphrodisiacs, and bondage. Now I wasn't expecting this, but if you would like to add more in your rebuttal, i'll grant you that then i'll ask my questions in Round 3.
benjacannada56

Con

First. The evidence is clearly layed out. Second the book of Romans was for the Roman Christians. You said "Leviticus of course mentions gay sex as a sin (Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13.) Leviticus 20:13 even goes as far as to say you should kill those who do this act."

God created sex to be within marriage so if you're really a christian, you wouldn't have sex out of marriage gay or not.

Ephesians 5:25-26 says "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and hgave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by ithe washing of water with the word"

Also since you would not have gay sex outside of marriage if you're really a christian and also since marriage is the union between a man and a woman you couldn't even call gay marriage because it's not marriage therefore unless you believe in sex outside of marriage being gay and christian is not impossible.

And also note how it talks about it as EVIL and WICKED in the book of Romans.
Debate Round No. 2
ChristianPunk

Pro

What happened before God gave them over? They started making false gods. Exchanging the lie for the truth. So god let them do what they want. Homosexuality is not called evil and wicked. The passage used is described the wickedness of ALL sin, but doesn't specifically define everyone to details.

I agree, sex outside of marriage is harmful. But we marriage is not between one man and one woman. David and Solomon had 100s of wives.

Sex is not just for marriage, but pleasure. He gives that pleasurable feeling so that when the mating is occurring, they can have this reward of pleasure in return. The shame comes when you abuse sex. It's the same shame from stealing, killing, lying, etc.

Anyways, I think we got enough out there. Up next I will use R3 to ask Con some questions while Con can use R3 to ask me some questions, while we use R4 to answer and explain our answers. So pretty much, doing 1 Peter 3:15 in a sense.

1. Do you consider the bible to be a book meant only for the layman and that intellectual people should stop looking at it too deep like theologians do?

2. Have you ever considered re reading the passages I have mentioned in your life, with the intent of biblical study applying hermeneutics, history and theology?

3. If somebody is gay and commits their life to celibacy, no marriages or dating, and pursues a career to be with the Lord, would you say this person enters into the kingdom of heaven? Just to clarify, you are still gay even if you still like guys and have no feelings whatsoever for women.

4. What do you think a gay person is exactly?

5. What evidence or argument would I need to provide to change your mind if this said evidence or argument existed?

Once again, wait until Round 4 to answer questions, but ask me questions in Round 3. I will let you refute my rebuttals above my questions if you'd like. Fair is fair after all.
benjacannada56

Con

Are you trying to say that being gay and Christian is not a sin. Or are you trying to say That it's ok to sin?

You yourself said that BEFORE that they were PAGAN before the book of Romans. And Also the Book of Romans cracks down on gay marriage severely

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Key phrase: While we wer still sinners.

Do you think that grace of God is a license to sin or a chance to do better?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

God does love all people but salvation is a way of cleansing ourselves so that we may have a relationship with God. NOT a way to get away with sin.
Debate Round No. 3
ChristianPunk

Pro

I shall begin my Answers and i'll let Con answer my questions in the next turn available.

Q1. "Are you trying to say that being gay and Christian is not a sin, or are you trying to say that it's ok to sin?"
A: Alright, I am going to say yes to the first part of your question, but I am not advocating that it's ok to sin entirely. I am saying that our works should not be emphasized. The Apostle Paul definitely said Grace was what saved us, not our works. He does say that our works define our character, so I think that's an important lesson, but it shouldn't affect our salvation. We are all still sinners til this day, but we are forgiven when we accept Christ. When many people here the word repent, they think "stop sinning" but in it's use, it means to have a change of mind (source: http://www.biblestudytools.com...). Now while I don't think being gay is a sin, I believe gay pride, pride parades and the lifestyle of multiple sex partners and one night stands are sins in the gay community. I believe if a gay person abandons that life, gets a committed partner, practices sex safely, raises a good kid and lives as a Chrsitian, that person will be in heaven. If they don't have a family, then all that person needs to do is repent his old life and be a Christian. The gospel alone can change one's mind and causes it to be renewed and transformed.

Q2. "Do you think that grace of God is a license to sin or a chance to do better?"
A: This is a good question, especially since some skeptics ask it. To me, grace of God removes the weight of the burden that sin has, but while it's wages are still death physically, emotionally and spiritually, we can still be healed when we try to do better. So I think it's about being given a second chance. The fact that we can actually try to get back up from our falls instead of God burying us. Back then, if we messed up, God buried us. But when Jesus died, he would allow the hole to still be open so we can get up. And Jesus would also be there to help us up as well. You don't know how many times 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is brought up on me. I tell them to read the entire context. Especially the next verse. "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." We were breakers of the ten commandments, but we are justified through Grace. We just keep the ten commandments because it shows us what sin is. But I will ask this. If salvation is a way of having a relationship with God, but not to get away with sin, then by your logic, you should not have to get away from your sins, nor me for mine. We have gotten away with our sins because once Jesus died, God would be able to turn his back on our sins after washing them away. It's merely a matter of if you truly repent for those sins.
benjacannada56

Con

benjacannada56 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
ChristianPunk

Pro

ChristianPunk forfeited this round.
benjacannada56

Con

benjacannada56 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by chloe-forever-2002 1 year ago
chloe-forever-2002
It CLEARLY states that it is wrong.
Posted by ChristianPunk 1 year ago
ChristianPunk
Abomination didn't mean what it means today. Eating shellfish and pork were considered abominations.
Sodom and Gomorrah would've easily raped the Angels if they were women. This common law among the greedy nations only meant gang rape new comers that didn't obey their laws or recognize them as the authority over them. Lot have his daughters up out his own will. God didn't tell him to.

jbdean, I've studied the bible and the culture to know that being gay was never condemned nor considered evil. I consider gay pride and other prides including American pride to be Idoltry, but I don't condemn my aunt or my friends who could care less about sex and care more about their romance.
Posted by jbdean 1 year ago
jbdean
Bottom line is you can be anything you want. The question is does Christianity condone homosexuality and if not, why would you want to be a Christian?

The Bible is very clear on its god not condoning homosexuality. If fact, he says it is an "abomination." It doesn't get more negative than that. There are, it's true, only 2 accounts of homosexuality being against god's will. One is the quote that a man who lies with a man the same as he lies with a woman commits an abomination to god (Leviticus 20:13) and both shall be put to death. The other is one of the main reasons Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed due to the men wanting to have sex with the male angel (not knowing he was an angle but just a new man in town). (Gen 19:5) But then, take a closer look at your god here. He allowed Lot to throw his own daughters out to the men to spare his angel. (Gen 19:8) What kind of god is that??

Yes, Jesus came and brought the new covenant that the greatest law to follow was to love one another. But did that neutralize what his heavenly father had said previously? Of course not. Why? Because the love that Jesus spoke of was Agape. This is not a physical love but a love between friends, family, spiritual members.

So, if you are a practicing homosexual, according to the Bible, you cannot be a Christian. And I ask you, why do you want to? The god of the Bible is mean, selfish, hurtful and cruel. He creates a "sin" that you have no control over and then says you are an abomination to him. Wow, if that doesn't scream "dysfunctional family," I don't know what does. Don't fall prey to the fact that you have to be Christian to get saved and live forever in Heaven. What kind of god creates a place for loyal servants yet also creates sin that you cannot change and then condemns you?

You don't need a god to be good and you don't need a god to make you happy and you sure don't need a god to be whole.
Posted by debate_power 1 year ago
debate_power
I hope you win this debate, ChristianPunk.
Posted by chloe-forever-2002 1 year ago
chloe-forever-2002
@ChristianPunk Baptism symbolizes a death and resurrection. Rebirth. Right Jesus refers to that scripture by John the baptist in acts 1 when he tells the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. At the begining of Acts 2 they all recieve it and speak in tongues.
Posted by ChristianPunk 1 year ago
ChristianPunk
At least you can use scripture properly. What does it mean to be born of water? Surely we are also born of water when we are born in the world for the first time. Then we must die to ourselves and be born again through Jesus.

2. I agree, my mistake.

3. What do you mean by baptism? Remember John The Baptist in Matthew 3:11? "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire".

4. Welcome to the community. First time I've talked to a Pentecostal.
Posted by chloe-forever-2002 1 year ago
chloe-forever-2002
1.) In john chapter 3:5 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." - Jesus

2.) In john chapter 7:39 Its says that the Holy Spirit wasn't given until after Jesus was crucified.

3.) In Acts chapter 2:38 Peter told the crowed the repent and be baptized, and revive the Holy Spirit. That was poured out for the first time on that day.

4.) I just made this account and haven't yet updated it.
Posted by ChristianPunk 1 year ago
ChristianPunk
Recordings, it doesn't say "this is how to be saved or recieve the Holy Spirit." What about the lame who were healed. The people performing miracles. Jesus didn't speak tongues, nor his apostles before his death and we're doing miracles before then.

Acts 16:31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

This verse explains what you must do to be saved and be a Christian. If you say a person must have direct divine tongue speaking, your preaching a salvation by works doctrine which the bible condemns. If you were also a genuine Christian, you wouldn't be afraid to update your profile and say you are one in the open for people to see. Don't brag about it, but let it be available to be known.
Posted by chloe-forever-2002 1 year ago
chloe-forever-2002
@ChristianPunk Losing control of your tears is not a recorded way of receiving the Holy Spirit. LOL Acts 2,10,19 are recorded instances of receiving the Holy Spirit.
Posted by ChristianPunk 1 year ago
ChristianPunk
No and speaking in tongues is not a requirement. I did receive the holy spirit when I lost control over my tears when I was 18, which is when I decided to devote my music and reading to the lord as well as searching for any other ways he can use me as his instrument in spreading the gospel that Jesus Christ died on the cross so that people can accept him and enter into heaven without sin because we have been forgiven from the cleansing of Christ's blood. I am a Christian who believes faith alone in Jesus Christ is enough to get one into heaven and that talents, works, and church rituals are not requirements to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. The only thing that matters about the bible, is the gospel. If you remove Jesus from it, Christianity is dead and should be forgotten.
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