The Instigator
Jation
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
That1User
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points

Can a human truly be liberated from their ego

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
That1User
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/20/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 899 times Debate No: 65548
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

Jation

Con

I don't feel that a person has the ability to become truly liberated from their ego. Often referred to as enlightened.
These and other similar terms to me mean that a person is no longer attached to there ego and void of self.
That1User

Pro

Before I begin my argument, I would like to thank my oppenent for creating an interesting philosphical debate. May the best debater win!

Because my opponent has not clarified the definitions of the terms of the debate, I shall provide the definitions of the terms.

Can: "to be physically or mentally able to" -Merriam Webster

Human: "A man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance." -Oxford Dictionary

truly:: "in truth : actually or really" -Merriam Webster

liberated: : "freed from"

ego: : "the opinion that you have about yourself."

egotism: "the feeling or belief that you are better, more important, more talented, etc., than other people"

In order to truly be liberated from one's ego, a person simply has to stop having an opinion of himself or herself.

In order to be truly liberated from one's egotism, a person simply has to stop having a feeling or beleif that they are superior to another person, either by a person thinking that they are inferior to other people, thinking that other people are superior to them, or thinking of themselves as equal to others.

For the sake of clarification, do you intend to debate whether humans can be truly be liberated by their opinion of themselves or from the belief that they are superior to other people?
Debate Round No. 1
Jation

Con

Thank you.
I appreciate you clarifying those parameters.
With regards to the ego. I would like to clarify that my reference to the ego is in the realm of psychology. With this in mind, our debate over the ego would encompass far more than simply the feeling you have about yourself or feeling of superiority or inferiority.

Examples:

A. Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.

B. the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

The human condition would be required to strip themselves of all the elements that the ego is powered.
The human mind cannot fully be cleansed from conditioning from birth. That coupled with the genetic traits that the homosapian carries.
That1User

Pro

Thank you
I appreciate you for your clarification of the definition of ego. This clarificiation makes this debate more interesting and more challenging than I originally anticipated. Now that the terms are defined, I will be arguing that a human can truly be liberated from their ego. This argument round will be divided into two parts, each part being divided into one of the two definitions of ego previously provided in Round 2. But I digress, now to officially begin my argument:

Under the first definition of ego, ego is defined as:

A. Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.

The developement psychoanayltic theory (psychoanalysis) is mainly attributed to Austrian phsycian Sigmund Frued. A primary compenet of Frued's theory is his analysis of the human psyche. The main compenet of Frued's analysis of the human psyche is the id, ego, and super-ego.

(The id being defined as: "the part of the psyche, residing in the unconscious, that is the source of instinctive impulses that seek satisfaction in accordance with the pleasure principle and are modified by the ego and the superego before they are given overt expression.")

(The ego being defined as: the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.")

(The super-ego being defined as: "the part of the personality representing the conscience, formed in early life by internalization of the standards of parents and other models of behavior.") (All definitions are from dictionary.com)

To simplify, the id is desire, the ego is a balance between desire and morality, or reason, and the superego is morality.
In order to truly be liberated from one's ego, one would have to stop mediatating between the pure instinct of the id and the morality of the super-ego. One can do this by surrendering oneself to either their desires or their morals, ignoring a compromise between instant gratification and doing the right thing.

One can also be liberated from the ego as defined by psychoanalysis by simply rejecting Fruedian's theory of the id, ego, and superego, as many have, because it cannot it can neither be proved true or refuted by scientific testing, thus Frued's theory is unscientfic, and it is therefore rational for someone to not believe the ego under the definition of Psychoanalysis. (Source: McLeod, S. A. (2013). Retrieved from http://www.simplypsychology.org... (Critical Evaluation))

Under the second definition of ego, ego is defined as:

B. the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

Self is defined as: the ego; that which knows, remembers, desires, suffers, etc., as contrasted with that known, remembered, etc.

In order for a person to be truly liberated from their ego, one will have to stop distinguishing oneself from the selves of others, and from objects of its thought. It is possible for oneself to stop distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from the objects of one's thought by having an altered state of conscionoussness.

An altered state of consciousness is defined as: : "any of various states of awareness (as dreaming sleep, a drug-induced hallucinogenic state, or a trance) that deviate from and are usually clearly demarcated from ordinary waking consciousness" -Merriam Webster Dictionary.

There are several things a human can do to in order to attain an altered state of consciousness. These things include sleeping, sleep disorders, use of psycho-active drugs (ie alcohol, especially when becoming intoxicated with alcohol), as well as becoming psychotic. To support my argument, I will be using the definitions of sleep and unconsciousness in particular, the second definition of ego, and the definition of self.

Sleep is defined as "the natural state of rest during which your eyes are closed and you become unconscious" -Merriam W.

Unconsciouness is defined as:
" a : not knowing or perceiving : not aware
b : free from self-awareness" -Merriam Webster

Ego is defined as:
the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

Self is defined as:
the ego; that which knows, remembers, desires, suffers, etc., as contrasted with that known, remembered, etc.

Now without further ado, here is my main argument:

When a human is truly asleep, a human is truly unconscious
When a human is truly unconscious, a human is truly free from self awareness
When a human is truly free from self awareness, a human is truly not self aware.
When a human is truly not self aware, a human is truly not disguisinged from the selves of others and from the objects of his or her own thought.
When a human is truly not disguished from the selves of others and from the objects of its thought, a human truly does not have an ego.
When a human does not truly have an ego, a human is truly liberated from their ego.
Therefore when a human is truly asleep (or truly unconscious), a human can be truly be liberated from their ego.
Thus a human can be truly liberated from their ego (by being unconscious).
Debate Round No. 2
Jation

Con

My opponent claims that a human would be liberated from their ego while asleep or in a state of unconsciousness.

I would like to state a short but clear and concise rebuttal.

With this discussion, we are dealing with a humans mental state and not the physical state. With that said, for a human to be freed or liberated, the subject would need to be aware of this process. In an unconscious state, there would be an unawareness of any such state. Even if it was ascertainable!

If a human was considered to have any mental condition, e.g., mentally insane, Schizophrenic, ADHD, etc., the human would be still regarded as such during a state of unconsciousness. This same principle follow with the attachment of the brains ego.

Furthering my argument, this can be illustrated to be invalid by his own sources, referring to Freud's model of the psyche. For the unconscious mind, while not aware is certainly active with an egoic entity.

-Freud applied these three systems to his structure of the personality, or psyche the id, ego and superego. (Here the id is regarded as entirely unconscious whilst the ego and superego have conscious, preconscious, and unconscious aspect.)

- Freud believed that the influences of the pre-conscious and unconscious reveal themselves in a variety of ways, including dreams, and in slips of the tongue, now popularly known as 'Freudian slips'.

For these reasons I state that the human mind is not void of ego during a state of unconsciousness.
That1User

Pro

My opponent claims that a human mind is not void of ego during a state of unconsciousness.

Rebuttal:

"With this discussion, we are dealing with a humans mental state and not the physical state. With that said, for a human to be freed or liberated, the subject would need to be aware of this process. In an unconscious state, there would be an unawareness of any such state. Even if it was ascertainable!" -Jation

One does not necessarily have to be aware of freedom in order to be free.

free: "not united with, attached to, combined with, or mixed with something else" -Merriam Webster

ego : B. the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

If a human is not united, attached, combined, or mixed with their ego when they are asleep, then a human is free from their ego, even though a human may not be aware of their freedom of their ego. Therefore a human being in a state of conciousness is not a prerequisite for a human to be liberated from their ego.

"If a human was considered to have any mental condition, e.g., mentally insane, Schizophrenic, ADHD, etc., the human would be still regarded as such during a state of unconsciousness. This same principle follow with the attachment of the brains ego" -Jation

A human's mental condition/disorder and ego are two different things.

Mental disorder : "a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual"called also mental illness" -Merriam W.

Ego: B. the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

A mental disorder is a disorder of the mind. With this disorder significantly impairing someone's mind, it will be hard to be liberated from it while in an unconscious state. Ego, however, is a sense of self. When someone is unconscious, a person does not have a sense of self. Therefore when a human is unconsious a human does not have an ego, and thus a human is liberated from his or her own ego.

"Furthering my argument, this can be illustrated to be invalid by his own sources, referring to Freud's model of the psyche. For the unconscious mind, while not aware is certainly active with an egoic entity" -Jation .

The above statement about my own sources proving me wrong is false. As the contender (pro), it is my job to rebut the statement's of my opponent, the instigator (con)
The statements of my oppenent included two different definitions of the word ego:

A. Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.

B. the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

The first definition of ego was ego as defined by Frued's psychoanayltic theory while the second definition of ego was ego defined in its more common form. Since two different definitions of ego were used by my oponent I defended the statement that "a human can be truly be liberated from their ego" using both definitions, seperating them into two distinct arguments.

My opponent, however, used these seperate arguments in order to further his case that an unconsious person cannot "turly be liberated from their ego" when these seperate arguments were never intended to be mixed together. (I appologize if this seperation was not clear to you, Jation)

This unintended mixing of arguments caused my opponent to fail to rebut my statement that:

"In order to truly be liberated from one's ego, one would have to stop mediatating between the pure instinct of the id and the morality of the super-ego. One can do this by surrendering oneself to either their desires or their morals, ignoring a compromise between instant gratification and doing the right thing."

Because of this failure of rebutal on my opponent's part, I assume that this argument is valid and remains unchallenged.

Furthermore, while Frued's theory was highly influencial in advancing the field of psychology into the modern age, it was fundamently flawed. This fundamental flaw was that Frued's theory had little scientific basis.

"Freud's theory is good at explaining but not a predicting behavior (which is one of the goals of science). For this reasons Freud's theory is unfalsifiable - it can neither be proved true or refuted. For example, the unconscious mind is difficult to test and measure objectively. Overall, Freud's theory is highly unscientific." -McLeod, S. A. (2013). Retrieved from http://www.simplypsychology.org... (From the Critical Evalutation section)

Since Frued's theory is highly unscientific, it is reasonable if a rational human being dismisses Frued's ideas.
Thus I will dismiss Frued's theory on the id, ego, and superego for the argument, as it is not only unscientific, but it was never intended to be part of the same argument.

In conclusion I have defended the premise that a human can be truly liberated from their ego if they are unconscious.

I have supported this premise by the following statements:

1) If a human is not united, attached, combined, or mixed with their ego when they are asleep, then a human is free from their ego, even though a human may not be aware of their freedom of their ego. Therefore a human being in a state of conciousness is not a prerequisite for a human to be liberated from their ego.

2) A mental disorder is a disorder of the mind. With this disorder significantly impairing someone's mind, it will be hard to be liberated from it while in an unconscious state. Ego, however, is a sense of self. When someone is unconscious, a person does not have a sense of self. Therefore when a human is unconsious a human does not have an ego, and thus a human is liberated from his or her own ego.

3)Since Frued's theory is highly unscientific, it is reasonable if a rational human being dismisses Frued's ideas.
Thus I will dismiss Frued's theory on the id, ego, and superego for the argument, as it is not only unscientific, but it was never intended to be part of the same argument.

Since I have defended the premise that a human can truly be liberated from their ego my main argument still stands.

Definitions:
Sleep is defined as "the natural state of rest during which your eyes are closed and you become unconscious" -Merriam W.

Unconsciouness is defined as:
" a : not knowing or perceiving : not aware
b : free from self-awareness" -Merriam Webster

Ego is defined as:
the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

Self is defined as:
the ego; that which knows, remembers, desires, suffers, etc., as contrasted with that known, remembered, etc.

Free is defined as: "not united with, attached to, combined with, or mixed with something else" -Merriam Webster

When a human is truly asleep, a human is truly unconscious
When a human is truly unconscious, a human is truly free from self awareness
When a human is truly free from self awareness, a human is truly not self aware.
When a human is truly not self aware, a human is truly not disguisinged from the selves of others and from the objects of his or her own thought.
When a human is truly not disguished from the selves of others and from the objects of its thought, a human truly does not have an ego.
When a human does not truly have an ego, a human is truly liberated from their ego.
Therefore when a human is truly asleep (or truly unconscious), a human can be truly be liberated from their ego.
Thus a human can truly be liberated from their ego (by being unconcious)
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Jation 2 years ago
Jation
The "EGO" is the engine behind every debate that we will have participated!
Posted by That1User 2 years ago
That1User
"You can be anything you want to be
Just turn yourself into anything you think that you could ever be
Be free with your tempo, be free be free
Surrender your ego - be free, be free to yourself"
-Queen "Innuendo"
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Do not confuse ego with confidence. A confident man is to be desired. Especially when you are looking to get things done.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by carriead20 2 years ago
carriead20
JationThat1UserTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Great debate to both of you! Con did an okay job of refuting claims but there is still a reasonable doubt behind his rebuttals. Pro had more sources