The Instigator
ameyav
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
jdog2016
Con (against)
Losing
5 Points

Can mind control be possible?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
ameyav
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/8/2013 Category: Science
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,459 times Debate No: 32219
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

ameyav

Pro

My debate is all about mind control.Let's define first mind control.
mind control:(also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated"

Only one thing is prohibited no use of religion(any) as a basis for such defense.

My opponent should believe that mind control isn't really possible.

Sir/Maam please use the first round for making your argument.

I'm looking forward for a good debate. :D
jdog2016

Con

First off, I belive it is possible to convince someone to do something that you want them to do, but only if that person deep down wants it to happen. For example, Hitler... he "brainwashed" millions of people, and convinced them to love him, and hate Jewish people. However these people could have easily chosen to dislike Hitler, and not support him. These people had a choice, therefor it is not anything like mindcontrol. It was a personal choice. "Mind control" is simply a word for elaborate persuasion. Persuasion is real, and varies in degrees. However Mind controll is not.

Please look at both of these links.

{ http://wiki.answers.com...;}----Is mind control real?

{ http://wiki.answers.com...

-----How do you Control Someones mind?
Debate Round No. 1
ameyav

Pro

Thank you for such thoughts mr.jdog2016. . :)

I'm thinking critical but it seems that what you've said doesn't suit for what is our debate is.why?

1)First off, I belive it is possible to convince someone to do something that you want them to do, but only if that person deep down wants it to happen. For example, Hitler... he "brainwashed" millions of people, and convinced them to love him, and hate Jewish people. However these people could have easily chosen to dislike Hitler, and not support him.

*No not at all

Actually there are many techniques that is related to brainwashing,which you"ve been labeled that an example of persuasion.If that is an example of persuasion then it is included in a persuasion method.

Brainwashing: Brainwashing, the application of coercive techniques to change the values and beliefs, perceptions and judgments, and subsequent mindsets and behaviors of one or more people, usually for political, financial, personal, or religious purposes.

Some of the list are list are:

#Reciprocity or Exchange of benefits - People tend to return a favour, for example the persuasiveness of free samples in marketing and advertising. In Cialdini's conferences, he often uses the example of Ethiopia providing thousands of dollars in humanitarian aid to Mexico just after the 1985 earthquake, despite Ethiopia suffering from a crippling famine and civil war at the time.Ethiopia had been reciprocating for the diplomatic support Mexico provided when Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1937.

#Commitment and Consistency - Once people commit to what they think is right, orally or in writing, they are more likely to honor that commitment, even if the original incentive or motivation is subsequently removed. For example, in car sales, suddenly raising the price at the last moment works because buyers have already decided to buy.

#Social Proofor Coalition - People will do things that they see other people are doing. For example, in one experiment, if one or more confederates would look up into the sky, bystanders would then look up into the sky to see what they could see. At one point this experiment was aborted, as so many people looked up that they stopped traffic. See conformity, and the Asch conformity experiments.

"Authority or Expertise - People will tend to obey authority figures, even if they are asked to perform objectionable acts. Cialdini cites incidents, such as the Milgram experiments in the early 1960s and the My Lai massacre in 1968.

"Liking or Ingratiation - People are easily persuaded by other people whom they like. Cialdini cites the marketing of Tupperware which might now be called viral marketing. People were more likely to buy from people they like. Some of the many biases favoring more attractive people are discussed, but generally more aesthetically pleasing people tend to use this influence excellently over others. See physical attractiveness stereotype.

#Scarcity - Perceived scarcity will generate demand. For example, saying that offers are available for a #limited time only" encourages sales.

And the last is

#Hypnosis: Contrary to a popular misconception"that hypnosis is a form of unconsciousness resembling sleep"contemporary research suggests that hypnotic subjects are fully awake and are focusing attention, with a corresponding decrease in their peripheral awareness.[7] Subjects also show an increased response to suggestions.[8] In the first book on the subject, Neurypnology (1843), Braid described "hypnotism" as a state of physical relaxation accompanied and induced by mental concentration ("abstraction").[9]

2)These people had a choice, therefor it is not anything like mindcontrol. It was a personal choice. "Mind control" is simply a word for elaborate persuasion.

Therefor should include an e at the end "Therefore.Your sentence structure is wrong also "it was a personal choice should be included in these people. . . it should just be separated by comma.Since it is should be separated.

Since it should be separated I will critize your idea. .

First sentence: These people had a choice, therefor it is not anything like mindcontrol. It was a personal choice.

#The animal kingdom includes all kind of living things from sponges to humans to spiders to elephants. Most of them can move on their own, but none of them can make their own food the way that plants can, which means they have to eat things! Like plants, fungi, and protists, animals are eukaryotes, meaning that their cells have a nucleus and other membrane-bound organelles.

*Everyone in the animal kingdom have willpower so everyone that is manipulated by mind control have will power.

http://youtu.be...

http://youtu.be...

3) "Mind control" is simply a word for elaborate persuasion.

*Yes indeed!

4) "Mind control" is simply a word for elaborate persuasion. Persuasion is real, and varies in degrees. However Mind controll is not.

*From these two sentence I can conclude that my opponent both have different meaning for mind control.Therefore mind control for him is non specific.

5){ http://wiki.answers.com......;} { http://wiki.answers.com......

*base from your sources,You may believe to me that you are adopted,Probably you will believe me!Your sources are just opinions,A thinking that came from hearsay and other people's map of their own mind.If they say that an experiment proves it wrong then where is the evidence? They didn't even link sources or other things that supports their answer.So may it be true or not,It is still a knowledge came from hearsay.

p1)persuasion willpower=mind control

p2)mind control=elaborate persuasion

p3)persuasion is not equal to mind control

p4)elaborate persuasion=willpower persuasion

since elaborate persuasion is part of persuasion.persuasion=elaborate persuasion

p5)you said that willpower is not equal to persuasion.

c=Therefore my opponent have no specific ideas.His ideas are non specific because of rumbled thoughts that proves this argument is futile even if rounds goes by,His ideas should come up with the sentence that he've put upon round 1.If it isn't,then he is changing the topic of overall argument in this debate.

Sources:

http://archive.planet-science.com...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...
jdog2016

Con

http://wiki.answers.com...#

'Nuff said



"#Commitment and Consistency - Once people commit to what they think is right, orally or in writing, they are more likely to honor that commitment, even if the original incentive or motivation is subsequently removed. For example, in car sales, suddenly raising the price at the last moment works because buyers have already decided to buy."



If a person were to buy a car, such as in this example, they would sit at home, and decide whether or not to even go and buy a car in the first place. Therefore, though it may seem the sales men has to convince the costumers to buy a car, they do not have to because the buyer has already internally decided on buying a car. Now, you may argue, "what about the price?"
The person going to buy a car already knew that they would have to pay a certain price for a car, and had already decided on a price range. If the sales men were to charge an outrageous price, then the buyer would simply walk away.
Debate Round No. 2
ameyav

Pro

Let me qualify what i've post earlier.It should be:
p1)persuasion+willpower=mind control

p2)mind control=elaborate+persuasion

p3)persuasion is not equal to mind control

p4)elaborate persuasion=willpower+ persuasion

since elaborate persuasion is part of persuasion.persuasion=elaborate persuasion

p5)you said that willpower is not equal to persuasion.

c=Therefore my opponent have no specific ideas.His ideas are non specific because of rumbled thoughts that proves this argument is futile even if rounds goes by,His ideas should come up with the sentence that he've put upon round 1.If it isn't,then he is changing the topic of overall argument in this debate.
. . . ...
My opponent didn't defend what I've posted recently in round 2 or he just can't?

Since my opponent didn't defend it he's changing the topic to escape from his irrational statement! :D

Ok,you said,If a person were to buy a car, such as in this example, they would sit at home, and decide whether or not to even go and buy a car in the first place. Therefore, though it may seem the sales men has to convince the costumers to buy a car, they do not have to because the buyer has already internally decided on buying a car. Now, you may argue, "what about the price?"
The person going to buy a car already knew that they would have to pay a certain price for a car, and had already decided on a price range. If the sales men were to charge an outrageous price, then the buyer would simply walk away.

*I will point out to this sentence: If the sales men were to charge an outrageous price, then the buyer would simply walk away.
answer:No. .are you just giving me such thoughts of yours? :D
I know a lot of techniques that supports your opinion.Example of this is the Bait-and-Switch persuasion technique and Low-ball persuasion technique.

*BAIT AND SWITCH
Description
Offer them something that appears to be very good value. This should be a real bargain, an offer they can't possibly refuse, even if they were not thinking about it.
Later, replace the item with something of less value to them (and more profit to you).
Example
A car sales showroom puts a basic car outside with a very low price-tag. Once the customer is interested, the sales person trades them up to a more expensive model.
Would you like to go out to this really expensive restaurant? ... Oh dear, it's booked up. Never mind, we can go to the usual place.
Discussion
When the person sees the initial item of high value they cognitively close on the idea of acquiring it and hence The early bait thus moves them from a negative position to one of commitment.
When the high value item is removed, then they enter a state of anxiety in which they seek to re-enter the comfortable closed state. They thus seek to satisfice, accepting almost any solution that will get them back to that comfortable state.
There may also be an element of commitment to the person making the offer. If I offer something to you, you feel some obligation to me. If I then switch the offer, especially if the switching seems reasonable, then you are likely to accept the second offer out of a sense of obligation to me. To do otherwise would expose myself as inconsistent and break bonding between us.
Although common in sales, this method was first researched by Joule, Gouilloux, and Weber (1989), who called it the lure procedure. They invited students to watch interesting film clips (and hence got a lot of volunteers), but then switched the task to memorizing lists of numbers. In the control group that was just asked to help by memorizing numbers (no initial film-clip offer), only 15% agreed, as opposed to 47% who had been first offered the film-clip experiment.
The bait and switch technique is a 'sequential request'.

*LOW BALL
Description
First make what you want the other person to agree to easy to accept by making it quick, cheap, easy, etc.
Maximize their buy-in, in particular by getting both verbal and public commitment to this.
Make it clear that they are agreeing to this of their own free will.
Then change the agreement to what you really want. The other person may complain, but, if the low-ball is done correctly they should agree to the change.
The trick of a successful low-ball is in the balance of making the initial request attractive enough to gain agreement, whilst not making the second request so outrageous that the other person refuses. It nevertheless is surprising how great a difference there can be between these two requests.
Example
A person agrees to buy a car at a low price. The sales person then apologizes that the wrong price was on the car. The person still agrees to buy it at the higher price.
A family books a package holiday. They find that there are surcharges. They pay these without question.
Discussion
The Low-ball works by first gaining closure and commitment to the idea or item which you want the other person to accept, then using the fact that people will behave consistently with their beliefs to sustain the commitment when you change the agreement.
There is also an illusion of irrevocability whereby a person believes that a decision made cannot be reversed, for example when a person agrees to buy a car and considers the handshake as the final transaction (as opposed to handing over the money).
Agreeing to a low price creates excitement and not buying after this state is induced may lead to an equally deep depression, which the person may avoid by continuing with the more expensive purchase.
When the final price is not that much higher than elsewhere, the person weighs up the inconvenience of going elsewhere with the short-term benefit of holding their purchase very soon.
Cialdini, Cacioppo, Bassett, and Miller (1978) asked students to participate in an experiment. The control group was told during the request that it would be at 7am. The low-ball group was only told this later. 24% of the control group agreed to this, whilst 56% of the low-ball group agreed (and 95% of these actually turned up).
Gu"guen and Pascual (2000) found it to be important that the person believes that they have made a free and non-coerced agreement to the first request. In particular adding 'but you are free to accept or to refuse' to the first request increased compliance.
Burger and Petty (1981) showed that the same person must make both requests.
The Low-ball technique is a 'sequential request'.
SOURCE:http://changingminds.org...

*Also your example doesn't fit commitment and consistency.This is what you've posted earlier,take a look again

"#Commitment and Consistency - Once people commit to what they think is right, orally or in writing, they are more likely to honor that commitment, even if the original incentive or motivation is subsequently removed. For example, in car sales, suddenly raising the price at the last moment works because buyers have already decided to buy."

If a person were to buy a car, such as in this example, they would sit at home, and decide whether or not to even go and buy a car in the first place. Therefore, though it may seem the sales men has to convince the costumers to buy a car, they do not have to because the buyer has already internally decided on buying a car. Now, you may argue, "what about the price?"
The person going to buy a car already knew that they would have to pay a certain price for a car, and had already decided on a price range. If the sales men were to charge an outrageous price, then the buyer would simply walk away.

*And the last you've given me another source that came from a post of a person that doesn't even put a source.Even if it were true it is still considered hearsay.
jdog2016

Con


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A
wart is generally a small, rough growth, typically on a human’s hands or feet but often other locations, that can resemble a cauliflower or a solid blister. They are caused by aviral infection, specifically by one of the many types of human papillomavirus (HPV). There are as many as 10 varieties of warts, the most common considered to be mostly harmless. It is possible to get warts from others; they are contagious and usually enter the body in an area of broken skin.[1] They typically disappear after a few months but can last for years and can recur.[2]

A range of types of wart have been identified, varying in shape and site affected, as well as the type of human papillomavirus involved.[3][4] These include:

  • Common wart (Verruca vulgaris), a raised wart with roughened surface, most common on hands, but can grow anywhere on the body;
  • Flat wart (Verruca plana), a small, smooth flattened wart, flesh-coloured, which can occur in large numbers; most common on the face, neck, hands, wrists and knees;
  • Filiform or digitate wart, a thread- or finger-like wart, most common on the face, especially near the eyelids and lips;
  • Genital wart (venereal wart, Condyloma acuminatum, Verruca acuminata), a wart that occurs on the genitalia.
  • Mosaic wart, a group of tightly clustered plantar-type warts, commonly on the hands or soles of the feet;
  • Periungual wart, a cauliflower-like cluster of warts that occurs around the nails.
  • Plantar wart (verruca, Verruca plantaris), a hard sometimes painful lump, often with multiple black specks in the center; usually only found on pressure points on the soles of the feet;
[edit]Cause
Micrograph of a common wart (verruca vulgaris) showing the characteristic features (hyperkeratosis, acanthosis,hypergranulosis, rete ridge elongation, and large blood vessels at the dermoepidermal junction, H&E stain.

Warts are caused by the human papilloma virus (HPV). There are about 130 known types of human papilloma viruses.[5] HPV infects the squamous epithelium, usually of the skin or genitals, but each HPV type is typically only able to infect a few specific areas on the body. Many HPV types can produce a benign growth, often called a "wart" or "papilloma", in the area they infect. Many of the more common HPV and wart types are listed below.

  • Common warts - HPV types 2 and 4 (most common); also types 1, 3, 26, 29, and 57 and others.
  • Cancers and genital dysplasia - "high-risk" HPV types are associated with cancers, notably cervical cancer, and can also cause some vulvar, vaginal,[6] penile, anal[7] and some oropharyngeal cancers. "low-risk" types are associated with warts or other conditions.[8][9])
  • High-risk: 16, 18 (cause the most cervical cancer); also 58, 33, 45, 31, 52, 35, 39, 59, and others.
  • Plantar warts (myrmecia) - HPV type 1 (most common); also types 2, 3, 4, 27, 28, and 58 and others.
  • Anogenital warts (condylomata acuminata or venereal warts) - HPV types 6 and 11 (most common); also types 42, 44 and others.[10]
  • Low-risk: 6, 11 (most common); also 13, 44, 40, 43, 42, 54, 61, 72, 81, 89, and others.
  • Flat warts - HPV types 3, 10, and 28.
  • Butcher's warts - HPV type 7.
  • Heck's disease (Focal epithelial hyperplasia) - HPV types 13 and 32.
[edit]Pathophysiology

Common warts have a characteristic appearance under the microscope. They have thickening of the stratum corneum (hyperkeratosis), thickening of the stratum spinosum (acanthosis), thickening of the stratum granulosum, rete ridge elongation, and large blood vesselsat the dermoepidermal junction.

[edit]Prevention

Gardasil is an HPV vaccine aimed at preventing cervical cancers and genital warts. Gardasil is designed to prevent infection with HPVtypes 16, 18, 6, and 11. HPV types 16 and 18 currently cause about 70% of cervical cancer cases,[8][9] and also cause some vulvar,vaginal,[6] penile and anal cancers.[7] HPV types 6 and 11 are responsible for 90% of documented cases of genital warts.[11]Unfortunately the HPV vaccines do not currently prevent the virus strain responsible for verrucas (plantar warts).

[edit]Treatment

There are many treatments and procedures associated with wart removal. One review of 52 clinical trials of various cutaneous wart treatments concluded that topical treatments containing salicylic acid were the best supported, with an average cure rate of 75%, compared with 48% for the placebo in six placebo-controlled trials including a total of 376 participants.[12] The reviewers also concluded that there was little evidence of a significant benefit of cryotherapy over salicylic acid.[12]

One complicating factor in the treatment of warts is that the wart may regrow after it has been removed.

[edit]Medication
Two viral warts on a middle finger, being treated with a mixture of acids (like salicylic acid) to remove them. A white precipitate forms on the area where the product was applied.
  • Imiquimod, a topical cream that helps the body's immune system fight the wart virus by encouraging interferon production. Approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration(FDA) for genital warts.[13] The drug is very expensive.
  • Cantharidin, a chemical found naturally in many members of the beetle family Meloidaewhich causes dermal blistering. Either used by itself or compounded with podophyllin. Not FDA approved, but available through Canada or select US compounding pharmacies.
  • Bleomycin, not US FDA approved. One or two injections used. It can cause necrosis of digits and Raynaud syndrome.[14][15]
  • Dinitrochlorobenzene (DNCB), like salicylic acid, this is applied directly to the wart. Studies showed this method was effective with a cure rate of 80%. But DNCB must be used much more cautiously than salicylic acid; the chemical is known to cause genetic mutations, so it must be administered by a physician. This drug induces an allergic immune response resulting in inflammation that wards off the wart-causing virus.[16]
  • Fluorouracil, which inhibits DNA synthesis, is being used as an experimental treatment. It is applied directly to the wart (especially plantar warts) and covered (for example: with tape). This treatment is combined with the use of a pumice stone, but tends to work very slowly.[17]
  • Salicylic acid can be prescribed by a dermatologist in a higher concentration than that found in over-the-counter products. There are several over-the-counter options, commonly involving salicylic acid, readily available th after treatment compared to 11% and 14%, respectively, in the placebo group.[18]The instructions must be followed to minimize staining of skin and clothing. Occasionally pigmented scars may develop.

Cryosurgery or cryotherapy devices using a dimethyl ether - propane mixture are inexpensive. A disadvantage is that the sponge applicator is too large for small warts, and the temperature achieved is not nearly as low as with liquid nitrogen. Complications include blistering of normal skin if excess freezing is not controlled.[citation needed]

Several randomized, controlled trials have found that zinc sulfate, consumed orally, often reduces or eliminates warts.[19][20][21] Thezinc sulfate dosage used in medical trials for treatment of warts was between 5 and 10 mg/kg/day. For elemental zinc, a lower dosage of 2.5 mg/kg/day may be appropriate as large amounts of zinc may cause a copper deficiency.[19] Other trials have found that topicalzinc sulfate solution[22] or zinc oxide[23] are also effective.

[edit]Procedures
Liquid nitrogen spray tank
  • Keratolysis, of dead surface skin cells usually using salicylic acid, blistering agents, immune system modifiers ("immunomodulators"), or formaldehyde, often with mechanical paring of the wart with a pumice stone, blade etc.[24]
  • Electrodesiccation[25]







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I forfeit the coming rounds, because I cannot commit time wise to this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
ameyav

Pro

Ok seems like there's a problem with my opponent. .

Since,I have nothing to defend because he don't post a case that I will neglect I will just repeat my earlier conclusion overall
. .. . . ..
"Mr.jdog2016 case at first round"
First off, I belive it is possible to convince someone to do something that you want them to do, but only if that person deep down wants it to happen. For example, Hitler... he "brainwashed" millions of people, and convinced them to love him, and hate Jewish people. However these people could have easily chosen to dislike Hitler, and not support him. These people had a choice, therefor it is not anything like mindcontrol. It was a personal choice. "Mind control" is simply a word for elaborate persuasion. Persuasion is real, and varies in degrees. However Mind controll is not.

Deductive reasoning:
p1)persuasion+willpower=mind control

p2)mind control=elaborate+persuasion

p3)persuasion is not equal to mind control

p4)elaborate persuasion=willpower+ persuasion

since elaborate persuasion is part of persuasion.persuasion=elaborate persuasion

p5)you said that willpower is not equal to persuasion.

c=Therefore my opponent have no specific ideas.His ideas are non specific because of rumbled thoughts that proves this argument is futile even if rounds goes by,His ideas should come up with the sentence that he've put upon round 1.If it isn't,then he is changing the topic of overall argument in this debate.

:)
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by ameyav 3 years ago
ameyav
Yes your probably right. :D
Posted by BrooklynHaze 3 years ago
BrooklynHaze
Deep coercion is. Not absolute control, but still control over the masses. Mind Control is nothing compared to the power the entertainment and media industries holds.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Misterscruffles 3 years ago
Misterscruffles
ameyavjdog2016Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Con went unhinged in the third and fourth rounds.
Vote Placed by SavedByChrist94 3 years ago
SavedByChrist94
ameyavjdog2016Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Mind Is Immaterial, so no, mind control from other humans is a fairy tale.