The Instigator
Confucius
Pro (for)
Losing
37 Points
The Contender
wonderwoman
Con (against)
Winning
49 Points

Capitalism is a more effective principle than that of socialism.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/11/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,830 times Debate No: 11708
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (23)
Votes (20)

 

Confucius

Pro

Hello,

This is my first time debating, so you may give me some tips and pointers along the way. My stance on the bill is as follows: I believe that capitalism IS a more effective principle than that of socialism.
wonderwoman

Con

I would like to start off with some definitions.

effective - adequate to accomplish a purpose
principle - a personal or specific basis of conduct or management: to adhere to one's principles; a kindergarten run on modern principles.
Capitalism - an economic system based on private ownership of capital
Socialism - an economic system based on state ownership of capital
more - comparative of much; to a greater degree or extent

Socialism is a more effective principle of achieving a command economy. This is because state ownership over private ownership is definitely achieving a command economy.
Debate Round No. 1
Confucius

Pro

I apologize for the confusion.I agree, socialism is effective at creating a command economy. If you'd like, you can defend the case that a command economy allows for a more prosperous nation than capitalism. I will defend the con side of that statement.

Some definitions:
Command economy - an economy where capital is controlled by the state government
Capitalist economy - an economy here capital is controlled by private citizens
Prosperous - successful, particularly in terms of wealth

Thomas Jefferson once said, "A wise and frugal government shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned."

My first contention: A prosperous economy is fueled by incentive.
A prosperous nation must allow for progress. In a free-market capitalist economy, companies are constantly competing with each other to make more affordable, better-quality products, with hopes that they can eventually rake in the most profits and expand. But when the government seizes land and distributes it, what incentive is there for people to work? In fact, they aren't even working for themselves, but rather for the government. In contrast, a capitalist nation allows people's work ethic and ingenuity to dictate their income. This allows for incentivization, a fundamental component of any successful economy.

My second contention: In a socialist nation, the people work for the government. In a capitalist nation, the government works for the people. Capitalism puts trust in the people to make their own economic decisions, while socialism calls for an overstepping government to make those decisions for the people, the very ones from whom their power is derived. As Thomas Jefferson put it,"Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." And when the government oversteps its boundaries, it deprives its people of the fundamental rights inherent in all
wonderwoman

Con

I will concur with the definitions of command economy and a capitalistic economy. Prosperous however i would not necessarily deem as effecient, although it could certainly intertwine with it.

His first point incentive.
This is an interesting point. The goal of both socialism and capitalism are prosperity and freedom. That is beyond refute.

You are under the assumption that better-quality products occur during a capitalist economy. Well, That would be wrong, unless I am mistaken, there was a birth control pill that caused birth defects in newborns. Now, in a capitalist nation, it would be buyer beware and this would be allowed. However, because of the government regulation and control the birth defect pill is off the shelves thanks to the FDA and other beaurcratic agencies. What socialism does is
it eliminates the role of capitalists and entrepreneurs, workers under socialism "produce for themselves." Therefore, it is held, socialism actually maintains or even stimulates incentives. The issue of incentives is vitally important. But the traditional way of presenting this issue is misleading. The real issue is not the presence or absence of incentives. Inncentives cannot be eliminated. They are omnipresent. Every politico-economic system generates a set of incentives. The real issue is whether a particular set of incentives is "right" or "wrong," i.e., whether it is appropriate to attain the goals sought or claimed for it by those implementing the political and economic policies. To claim that sociailism does not have incentives is ludicrous.

His second point. People work for the government and that is bad essentially is what he is saying. He quotes Thomas Jefferson, so let me quote Thomas Mann "Every reasonable human being should be a moderate Socialist." Socialism, oversteps no boundaries because rights are a contractrual thing existent only upon the respect for them otherewise God would draw property lines.

I have no more character space, but will po
Debate Round No. 2
Confucius

Pro

My opponent first attacks capitalism, claiming no restriction is dangerous to citizens (i.e. Birth defects). Instead, he believes, government should decide what is "good" and what is "bad" for the people. But with this statement comes my question: According to socialism, what if the "omnipotent" government "chose" what products you had to buy, what job you had to apply for, what house you had to live in?
Capitalism places trust in the hands of the people, rather than in the hands of the government. Capitalism trusts people to read the label and understand the health risks of potentially dangerous products, and does NOT let the government make OUR choices for us, as is the case in socialism.
My opponent's next point deals with incentives. He claims, "Workers under socialism produce for themselves." I believe that the economy if fueled by incentive, and people will NOT work if they do not reap benefits. People simply do not work for the betterment of others, just to be altruistic. Society simply doesn't work like that. That's why a capitalist society is more efficient at creating a prosperous economy. When a person fails to make enough money to support his family, he becomes incentivized to produce, to work, to better the economy. And that is where successful nations arise: incentives. If a failing worker receives money due to redistribution of wealth, she will have a negative incentive. This means that the person will depend on the wealthy to "do their work." These people that do not work do NOT contribute to the economy. But the good news is, incentives DO exist, and most people are like the first person I described (capitalism), as opposed to the second person I described (socialism).
My opponent then attacks my point regarding people working for the government under socialism, rather than the other way around, as in capitalism. I implore you to re-read the last sentence of the first paragraph, and to ask yourself: How is a socialist government NOT overstepping
wonderwoman

Con

No restriction is dangerous. Even, the most primitive person on this site or able to use the internet is capable of seeing that.

You throw a what if situation out there and it is beautiful but what's even better is socialism does not control what you buy, what job you apply for, or where you live. It seems to be a straw man attempt because I used the word omnipotent government which is any form of government essentially.

That is a truthful claim I assert about the incentives. My opponents example is awfully horrid to the human race as a whole. If we all thought like that America, would have far fewer than the 300 million people it does today and even more disease would run rampant. Also, people who do not work DO CONTRIBUTE TO THE ECONOMY, they make have a negative impact but they have an impact.

You are correct incentives exist for the betterment of the common good. Which as stated previously is achieved through socialism. As I said the goals are different than in capitalism but do acheive the same ends prosperity and freedom. The government may set the economic goals and your incentive to get there is to achieve the common good for everyone and not to be a selfish or elitist.

He failed to attack my point on rights being contractual. This is important because it shows how socialism oversteps no one rights and no boundaries to achieve the common good. Due to the character limit I cannot go in depth as I would have liked on either of the arguments.

Once again prosperity and freedom go to all instead of the elite few in socialism. Therefore it achieves the better economic principle and is therefore a more effective principle.
Debate Round No. 3
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Shtookah 4 years ago
Shtookah
YES eat your heart out reagan
Posted by CaleBREEEum 4 years ago
CaleBREEEum
Libertarian ftw! Nozick said it best, screw the rest.
Posted by Sorrow 4 years ago
Sorrow
The best form of government is one that does not have a name.

Frenchmoosenment.
Posted by InsertNameHere 4 years ago
InsertNameHere
Confucius, I always thought it was the opposite, that there's alot of Libertarians here. They're like my polar opposite too, with me being economically left and socially authoritarian. O.o
Posted by wonderwoman 4 years ago
wonderwoman
I think an autocratic government would be the bet roy
Posted by RoyLatham 4 years ago
RoyLatham
wonderwoman, Perhaps if the debate was about "pure capitalism as a theoretical principle" in comparison to "pure socialism as a theoretical principle." The debate, however, was about "effective principle." A that level there is no question, I think, about the answer. We have many examples of systems having capitalist principles being effective, and none of socialism being effective. That's why I think Pro should have pressed examples.

As a point of theory, there are examples of non-governmental regulations like Underwriters Laboratories. They go around and certify products as safe. It is a matter for speculation as to what would happen if the government ceased regulating. Possibly private organizations would be more effective. For example, Bernie Madoff fooled government regulators. I kind of doubt he could have fooled a private organization. Also, drug companies fear lawsuits more than government regulators. They do not want to put out bad drugs for fear of getting sued. Capitalism provides for suing over false claims. The problem is with small companies selling snake oil that take the money and run.
Posted by Confucius 4 years ago
Confucius
Okay, no offence to Wonderwoman, but how could anybody possibly think that she had better spelling and grammar? Can someone answer that please?

And also, how come there are so many socialist and communists on Debate.org? Is that well-known?
Posted by wonderwoman 4 years ago
wonderwoman
Monitoring the drug system is against pure capitalism which is Adam Smith wealth of nations. So, in a way by bringing up the fact that capitalism allows these products to exist as buyer beware, and showing how government regulation, I assumed I was doing my job.
Posted by RoyLatham 4 years ago
RoyLatham
The sole Con argument against capitalism producing better products was about a drug causing birth defects. However, the drug industry is highly regulated, so it shows a failure of government regulation rather than a defect of unbridled capitalism. Pro, I think, should have used more examples, like North versus South Korea, East versus West Germany. It is very difficult to argue broad generalities under the severe character restrictions of the debate.
Posted by wonderwoman 4 years ago
wonderwoman
spelling isn't my strong suit
20 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: S/G easy. Args easy. Counter CON as I think the vote for yourself glitch is unfair. So most of this is a counter.
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