The Instigator
SiriusTrekkie
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
bsh1
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Captain Kirk is better than Picard

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
bsh1
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/21/2014 Category: TV
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 696 times Debate No: 61821
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (3)

 

SiriusTrekkie

Pro

*-*-*PLEASE READ ALL*-*-*

To accept, you must have some basic knowledge of TOS and TNG. If you don't know what that is, you probably shouldn't accept this debate. I tried to make this debate impossible to accept, but if you are somehow able to, please don't. I don't want any forfeits if you can help it, so please be able to post every time! I will give you 3 days to post.

First Round: Acceptance *ONLY*
Second Round: Opening Arguments & Statements *ONLY*
Third Round: Rebuttals
Fourth Round: Closing Rebuttals & Conclusions

Please follow these rules! This is my first debate that I created, so I'm a little new and slow to all of this. Sorry!
bsh1

Con

I accept. I've done some Star Wars debates, but this will be my first Star Trek debate. I look forward to it! Thanks to Pro for this opportunity!
Debate Round No. 1
SiriusTrekkie

Pro

Thank you for accepting and posting your acceptance. I'm looking forward to it as well. Remember, the points can be a bit ridiculous and funny, but just follow the rules I set and have fun! Remember, no rebuttals this round, just points.

1. Captain Kirk actually has hair, and he's actually cute (I'm a girl, by the way). Many people say Picard was handsome, but I think they are only being nice.

2. Kirk breaks the prime directive sometimes to help others. While Picard would rather just watch them die, than break the prime directive.

3. Picard let Wesley go down on a planet, where he breaks one of their only rules and gets the death sentence. He tries to get him back with no avail, so he rescues an annoying ensign and then also breaks the most important rule in Starfleet, when he could've left Wesley to die and followed the prime directive. Kirk would've done the latter.

4. Picard gets outsmarted by an acting ensign. Kirk outsmarted almost all of Starfleet by winning the Kobayashi Maru.

5. Kirk became an admiral when we has 37 [1]. Picard never made admiral.

Again, thank you for accepting, and I'm looking forward to a great debate!

[1] http://en.memory-alpha.org...
bsh1

Con

I'll keep my arguments roughly in the same vein as Pro's for this round--I'll go into more depth later. I thank Pro for this debate.

1. Picard is much less rash than Kirk--Kirk tends to rush off and make ill-considered decisions whereas Picard tends to carefully evaluate all options.

2. Picard was more diplomatic and inclusive in his decision-making and not as authoritarian as Kirk in his leadership style.

Frankly, I think these two points are sufficient to show Picard to be a better captain. I look forward to discussing these points and Pro's in depth in later rounds.
Debate Round No. 2
SiriusTrekkie

Pro

I would like to see some episodes where Kirk makes a hurried decision and it turns out to be a bad one, just for proof.

On your point two, I think a captain needs to be a bit authoritarian because he is in charge of the whole starship. He needs to take command and be in charge. So it isn't necessarily a bad thing. And he never overused his authority, and valued his and others freedom.

Also, Kirk did usually try to consider all options. He also valued life more and tried to choose the option that would save more lives. In the TOS episode "Whom Gods Destroy," a shape-shifter named Garth shifts into another Kirk. Spock is trying to figure out which is the real one. The real Kirk says to stun both, to ensure the safety of the Enterprise. [1]

Thank you for some good points, and remember, only rebuttals this round.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)
bsh1

Con

I will defend my case and then rebut my opponents. Thanks again to Pro for this debate!

CON's CASE

1. Kirk is more rash than Picard

Pro challenges me to provide evidence of Kirk's headstrong nature. Very well. Here is an example (I would provide more if I had the character space):

"Discovering a recorder-marker from the SS Valiant that described a catastrophic disaster following a visit to the galaxy's edge, Kirk pushed on, and encountered the galactic barrier for his first time. The Enterprise failed to breach the barrier, and barely escaped destruction. With warp engines badly damaged, Enterprise limped under impulse power towards the Delta Vega lithium cracking station. Kirk's helmsman, his best friend Gary Mitchell, began a transformation triggered by the barrier, developing psychic powers that progressed rapidly, with a commensurate loss of his Humanity." [1] Kirk new their was trouble ahead, yet proceeded with a boneheaded and unnecessary mission that cost the lives of crewman unnecessarily.

Moreover, Picard isn't nearly as rash--Picard is more a man of intellect, and Pro never really addresses this. To sum up my arguments here, I can do no better than to quote the following, "Picard wasn’t the charismatic action hero that Kirk was. But he had his share of derring-do, made plenty of difficult decisions (including also sacrificing his ship) and he ultimately resisted the freakin’ Borg, the Star Trek universe’s most powerful villains. Had Kirk been assimilated, the Borg would’ve consumed every inhabited galaxy under Kirk’s hot-headed guidance. Picard was, as Shatner points out, thoughtful." [2]

2. Picard was More Diplomatic

Pro says that a captain should be more authoritarian--but not when that means not being open to your crew. Let's face it, the only people whose advice Kirk regularly listen to were McCoy and Spock. Picard's trademark was his ability to give and receive input from all of his senior staff as well as from ordinary crewmen. Surely, that doesn't make Picard weak--it means that he's getting a variety of perspectives that will ultimately make his decision more informed and prudent.

I'll address the second issue Pro raises here when I get to Pro's case.

PRO's CASE

1. Attractiveness is a subject trait--as Pro admits, many people think Picard is more attractive. He certainly aged better than Kirk...But really, if we're going to evaluate on subjective traits, we should look at what fans think. More than 50,000 fans voted and they rated Picard as more Inspiring, more Decisive, and more Intelligent. [3] Surely, these are not only traits we desire in a captain.

2 + 3. These points contradict. Pro says that Picard would rather watch people die than break the prime directive, but then in point three Pro says that Picard breaks the prime directive to save someone's life. Pro cannot have it both ways. My contention here is that Picard does value life, and that he does do what he can to save lives likes the ensigns, but he tries to find ways to effect those solutions within the confines of the prime directive. Though, when he has to violate it, he does.

4. Kirk cheated on the Kobayashi Maru. [4] That isn't something for which someone ought to be commended, nor is it truly outsmarting someone. If I can makes the rules of the game whatever I want, then of course I can win. It is much more a test of my personal skill to attain victory in the face of difficult odds and unfavorable rules.

5. Picard was offered the position of admiral, but he declined. Picard could easily have become an admiral had he desired to do so, so this point is moot. [5]

SOURCES

[1] http://en.memory-alpha.org...
[2] http://www.torontosun.com...
[3] http://www.torontosun.com...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://en.memory-alpha.org...

Thanks for an interesting round of debate. I now turn things over to Pro! Live Long and Prosper!
Debate Round No. 3
SiriusTrekkie

Pro

Thank you for those points! And good luck to you!

You said Picard had to sacrifice his ship. So did Kirk. Kirk and company feign surrender and activate the Enterprise's self-destruct sequence, killing the Klingon boarding party while the Enterprise crew transports to the planet's surface. [1]

You may think cheating isn't something someone should get a reward on, but others disagree. It's thinking out of the box and shows that Kirk tries to make the best out of every situation.

Kirk also saved the world from a probe looking for whales. I'm positive Picard never did that.

Kirk is the top character in all of Star Trek according to this poll. Picard comes in a dismal third place, after Spock. [2] This other poll also states Captain James Tiberius Kirk would survive the longest in a zombie apocalypse. [3]

I thank Con for a lovely debate and I hope that maybe we can debate again in the future.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[2] http://www.ign.com...

[3] http://www.startrek.com...
bsh1

Con

Thanks for Pro and for her swift reply.

CON's CASE

Pro says that both Captains sacrificed their ships, so this is non-unique. Pro never does challenge though that Kirk's action, not the one Pro discusses, but the one I provided, illustrates Kirk's headstrong nature. Picard is much more evenly balanced, and Pro never offers arguments to the contrary.

PRO's CASE

1. Pro drops the attractiveness is subjective, and thus it is a poor way to assess which captain is better. Pro cites two "polls" to counter mine. Firstly, Pro's source No. 2 is not a poll--it's methodology is described thusly: "We've made these choices based on overall fan reaction, impact on the franchise, character relevance to the best moments in the films/series, and significance in the Trek universe, as well as our own arbitrary favorites. You might be surprised that a few of your own faves didn't make the list." When Pro tries to out-poll me, Pro implicitly accepts that the fan's approval of captains is an important, quantifiable way of measuring which is better. Since Pro's source isn't a poll (because it's based on non-poll factors) it doesn't outweigh my poll. Regarding Pro's source 3, while this is an actual poll, it only has 15,000 votes instead of my poll's 50,000--and Pro's poll is specific too a zombie attack whereas mine is about who is the better captain overall. Thus, prefer my poll.

2 + 3. Pro does not defend these points. They are in contradiction, and so cancel out.

4. Pro says that cheating is a novel approach, but that doesn't obviate the point that I made last round that, "If I can make the rules of the game whatever I want, then of course I can win. It is much more a test of my personal skill to attain victory in the face of difficult odds and unfavorable rules."

5. Pro drops this as well. It's moot.

Please vote Con because Picard was the fan's selection (a good Star Trek captain should be able to inspire the fans of the series), because he is the more rational/diplomatic captain, and because Pro's case is rife with contradictions and non-unique arguments. Thank you, Pro, for a fun debate! Thanks to anyone who reads the round--please VOTE CON!
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bsh1 2 years ago
bsh1
@SiriusTrekkie - if at all possible, could you post your next round within 24 hours. I don't want to rush you, but if it wouldn't be a hassle, I would appreciate it.
Posted by bsh1 2 years ago
bsh1
I'm going to be deactivating my account for a bit, but I will be back on in time to post my argument for the next round--just so you don't worry if you see my deactivation.
Posted by SiriusTrekkie 2 years ago
SiriusTrekkie
I will debate bsh1 on this topic today. Sorry to the rest of you, but he posted first after my comment. And good luck to you bsh1!
Posted by bsh1 2 years ago
bsh1
Still interested.
Posted by SiriusTrekkie 2 years ago
SiriusTrekkie
I would like to add that this isn't going to be a very serious debate, although it will still need arguments and what-not. If you are still interested, please personally message me or post here again.
Posted by Keeyan 2 years ago
Keeyan
Willing and able to argue that Jean-Luc Picard is the ideal starship captain, and truly embodies the ideals of StarFleet. Although I concede that Spock is the greatest Star Trek character ever created.

Regardless of acceptance: live long and prosper.
Posted by Codedlogic 2 years ago
Codedlogic
Picard has a maneuver named after him so clearly he is the superior captain. I am willing to accept your challenge.
Posted by bsh1 2 years ago
bsh1
I will do this debate.
Posted by FaustianJustice 2 years ago
FaustianJustice
What Ragnar said. I am not "hard core" into ST, but I am pretty sure I could make it worth your while in a 'for fun' debate between the two captains. Whom ever you accept to the debate, it would serve you and your opponent to agree on a collection of material to pull and argue from.
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
Welcome! ... Small tip, is set limits on what is canon. On a star trek debate I had, fan fiction ended up being included in my opponents sources (actually the one debate I consider myself to have lost arguments on).
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
SiriusTrekkiebsh1Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: pro used very subjective arguments while bsh1 used facts to prove Picard better/equal to Kirk.
Vote Placed by Atheist-Independent 2 years ago
Atheist-Independent
SiriusTrekkiebsh1Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con provided factual evidence to support their claim while Pro utilized their opinions (i.e. Kirk is more handsome than Picard). In the end facts always defeat opinions.
Vote Placed by FaustianJustice 2 years ago
FaustianJustice
SiriusTrekkiebsh1Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: bsh1 stitched together a better composite while demonstrating Pro's self defeating arguments. Con also refuted well some pretty level barbs about being an admiral. Good debate all around, though.