The Instigator
PieMoose
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
tejretics
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Carcharodontosaurs were the most powerful dinosaurs

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
tejretics
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/17/2015 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 699 times Debate No: 76642
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (5)

 

PieMoose

Pro

The Carcharodontosaurs were more than likely the most powerful dinosaurs to ever exist. While they did go extinct before the reign of the Tyrannosaurs, they still had the opportunity to show how powerful they were. They ruled the entire world in their different species being able to hunt even the largest sauropods to ever exist.
tejretics

Con


I accept, since I have been interested in palaeozoology and ethology for a while, and this resolution is impossible to resist.



== Definitions ==



The term "Carcharodontosaur" is generally not used in paleontology, and there are two possible interpretations of this: the clade Allosauroidea [1], the family Carcharodontosauridae [2], or the genus Carcharodontosaurus. [3] For the sake of being specific, I shall assume it is the genus that was being referred to. The term "powerful" is, in this sense, the term "formidable", defined by my opponent as "[the ability] to take down something larger in size, more intelligent, [or more formidable]", so it would be a versus situation. It seems Pro was implying solely carnivores; thus, I shall treat it as such.



== Tyrannosaurus v. Carcharodontosaurus ==



I shall first defend the genus Tyrannosaurus, alluded to by Pro in R1, against Carcharodontosaurus. The genus Carcharodontosaurus has two species: C. iguidensis, and C. saharicus [4], while the genus Tyrannosaurus is generally agreed to have one species, T. rex. [5]



(1) Bite Force



Bite force is an important way to measure how formidable a genus of dinosaur is, since it impacts how different species kill prey and handle interspecies conflict. "The force exerted at one of T. rex's back teeth would have been between 7,868 and 12,814 pounds-force (35,000 and 57,000 newtons). This force would be akin to having a medium-size elephant sit on you." [6]



According to biologist David Hone, "I would expect [Tyrannosaurus] to have the strongest bite simply because it has a proportionally short skull with huge attachment points for muscles. It's best built for biting hard, something echoed in the shape of its teeth", when comparing Tyrannosaurus with Spinosaurus, Giganotosaurus, and Carcharodontosaurus. [7] According to Manabu Sakamoto of the University of Bristol, "In terms of biting efficiency (the mechanical advantage),Carcharodontosaurus (and by phylogenetic inference, Giganotosaurus as well) have pretty impressive biting capabilities, but if you include muscle force and calculate bite force, then Tyrannosaurus beats these two by almost an order of magnitude." [7]



Thus, Tyrannosaurus wins on bite force.



(2) Intelligence & Senses



Tyrannosaurus is generally considered a relatively intelligent genus of theropod. A study conducted by Lawrence Witmer and Ryan Ridgely of Ohio University added detail to the known sensory abilities of Tyrannosaurus, finding that they shared the heightened sensory abilities of other coelurosaurs, highlighting relatively rapid and coordinated eye and head movements, as well as an enhanced ability to sense low frequency sounds that would allow tyrannosaurs to track prey movements from long distances and an enhanced sense of smell. [8]



Kant Stevens of the University of Oregon used modified perimetry to facial constructions of several dinosaurs, including T. rex, to demonstrate that Tyrannosaurus had a binocular range of 55 degrees, surpassing that of modern hawks. This meant that the vision of this species was more powerful than that of a hawk. [9]



Both studies concluded that the reason for these enhanced senses was the unique prey the species hunted, unlike most other large theropods who hunted larger prey, e.g. Carcharodontosaurus.



A study by Witmer, Ridgely, and Grant R. Hurlburt concluded that T. rex was the most intelligent non-avian dinosaur except Troodon, Ornithomimus, and Bambiraptor; thus, more intelligent than C. saharicus or C. iguidensis. [10]



(3) Fighting Skills



"The T.rex would have a slight edge [over a Carcharodontosaurus due to its better vision and larger brain but it would still be only a 52/48 advantage." [11] The sheer speed and bite force of the T. rex would probably allow it to prevail over a Carcharodontosaurus in battle, especially because Carcharodontosaurus was evolved to kill large prey that was defenseless except for size, while T. rex was adapted to kill smaller, but more formidable prey.



Thus, one can conclude that T. rex is more powerful than Carcharodontosaurus. The resolution is resoundingly negated.





== Sources ==



[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[4] Brusatte, SL & Sereno, PC 2007, 'A new species of Carcharodontosaurus (Dinosauria: Theropoda) from the Cenomanian of Niger and a revision of the genus'. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, vol 27, no. 4, pp. 902-916.


[5] http://www.scientificamerican.com...


[6] http://www.livescience.com...


[7] http://www.askabiologist.org.uk...


[8] Witmer, Lawrence M., Ridgely, Ryan C. (Aug 26, 2009) New insights into the brain, braincase, and ear region of tyrannosaurs (Dinosauria, Theropoda), with implications for sensory organization and behavior. The Anatomical Record 292(9) 1266-1296.


[9] http://tinyurl.com...


[10] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[11] http://en.allexperts.com...


Debate Round No. 1
PieMoose

Pro

PieMoose forfeited this round.
tejretics

Con

Extend all arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
PieMoose

Pro

PieMoose forfeited this round.
tejretics

Con

Extend all arguments.
Debate Round No. 3
PieMoose

Pro

PieMoose forfeited this round.
tejretics

Con

Extend all arguments. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by tejretics 2 years ago
tejretics
@CT: G. carolini *IS* a Carcharodontosaur, since this is only specifying *family*, not genus or species.
Posted by creationtruth 2 years ago
creationtruth
*G. carolini
Posted by creationtruth 2 years ago
creationtruth
Giganotosaurus! I think he may have been more powerful.
Posted by tejretics 2 years ago
tejretics
And please change the voting system to "Select Winner". To do that, go to advanced settings near the voting option and change 7-point system to Select Winner system.
Posted by tejretics 2 years ago
tejretics
Interesting ... I might accept if you limited it to a single species instead of an "on balance" family grouping. Like, if you wished to debate C. saharicus, C. iguidensis, G. carolini, etc. then I would choose a separate Dinosaurian-clade species as being more powerful.
Posted by creationtruth 2 years ago
creationtruth
I realize dinosaur were land dwelling, but I only ask since you did not provide definitions. You should include everything you said in the previous comment within the first round.
Posted by PieMoose 2 years ago
PieMoose
*correction: not spinosaurids, instead spinosaurinae
Posted by PieMoose 2 years ago
PieMoose
First of all, every dinosaur was land dwelling. Perosaurs were flying reptiles, the only swimming dinosaurs were the members of the spinosauridae and possibly limited to just the spinosaurids. Powerful means how fast it could take down something that is equal or more advanced in size(length and/or weight) and intelligence. Equal or more can also be a pack hunting animal using its pack to bring down the opponent.
Posted by creationtruth 2 years ago
creationtruth
Define dinosaur. Is this limited to land dwelling dinosaurs? Define powerful. Jaw strength? Overall physical ability? Largest carnivore?
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
PieMoosetejreticsTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
PieMoosetejreticsTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Full forfeit
Vote Placed by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
PieMoosetejreticsTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was the only one to provide a case--which went completely uncontested by Pro. Due to Pro forfeiting all three rounds, conduct also goes to Con.
Vote Placed by Envisage 2 years ago
Envisage
PieMoosetejreticsTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Wow, this was an interesting read. FF but it it really is a shame this debate didn't develop.
Vote Placed by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
PieMoosetejreticsTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: ff