The Instigator
lfmskl
Pro (for)
Winning
21 Points
The Contender
Calvincambridge
Con (against)
Losing
5 Points

Catholicism is NOT real Christianity

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
lfmskl
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/25/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,339 times Debate No: 17656
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (5)

 

lfmskl

Pro

Guidelines:

-This is not an argument over the existence of God, the divinity of Jesus, or the divine inspiration of the Bible, but of the credibility of the Catholic religion
-Round 1: Opening statement by each person (no arguing/rebuttals in R. 1)
-Round 2: Rebutting opening statements
-Round 3: Argument period
-Round 4: More argument period
-Round 5: Closing statements. No new arguments in R. 5 are accepted
--------------

I do not believe that Catholicism is real Christianity. My argument will be split in to four points which I will later address:

1. Catholics pray to dead saints and worship idols.
2. Having a Pope is not Biblical or necessary.
3. Catholics worship Mary.
4. The Catholic Church has pagan and anti-Biblical roots and views.

1) We have all heard Catholics say things like "Saint _____, pray for us". The Catholics have special prayers for saints, such as "A Parent's Prayer to St. Joseph", which can be read here: http://www.catholic.org....
According to Catholics, they are not praying to the saint, but asking the saint to pray with them. The idea is that, because the saint is in heaven, they can offer a "better" prayer to God. I challenge the Catholic to find me one verse in the Bible where this doctrine is taught. The Bible clearly says in II Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;". Scripture tells us that if we offer a prayer in Jesus' name, God will hear us and answer the prayer (John 14:13-14). To say that it is not necessary to pray in Christ's name to God, but to ask a saint pray for you would be calling Jesus a liar. We humans posses the ability to pray to God without the assistance of saints. The Catholic claim that the saint will pray for them is erroneous. I urge my opponent to read the "Parent's Prayer to Saint Joseph" again. My opponent will notice that not once does the prayer ask Joseph to pray to God for us. The prayer was solely written to glorify and thank Joseph. This violates the 1st Commandment.

Besides breaking Commandment 1, Catholics also break the 2nd Commandment and the command given in Rev. 22:19: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book". Here is the list of the Ten Commandments taken from the Catholic Catechism: http://www.catholicbible101.com.... Read Commandments 2 and 10. Now read this list of the Ten Commandments taken from the Book of Exodus: http://www.bible-knowledge.com.... Read Commandments 2 and 10 on this list. My opponent will notice a difference. The Catholic version has omitted the 2nd Commandment and split the 10th in half. They have taken from God's Word. Why would they remove the 2nd Commandment? It says, in part: "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them;..." (Ex. 20:4-5a).
Why omit the Commandment that says "You shall not bow down to them"?

http://so4j.com...

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com...

Because they DO bow down to "them"!
The reason they split the 10th Commandment into two parts was so there would still be 10.

2) Catholics often say that the papacy was created when Jesus called Peter the "rock" in Mt. 16:18. To stay within character limits, I ask that my opponent read this article: http://www.wordoftruthradio.com.... Peter was not the rock; Jesus was, and is. "And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church..." (Colossians 1:18a).
The only real leader of the Church body is Jesus. There is no need for a pope. How can a sinful man lead Christ's Church? The pope is not infallible. Romans 3:4: "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Notice it says that every man is a liar. Romans goes on to teach that everyone is guilty of sin.

The pope is called "The Vicar of God", or "The Vicar of Christ", vicar meaning someone who is allowed to be a substitute for someone else. What does the Bible say? "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" (John 14:16). The Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, not any man. The Holy Spirit is God, so when the pope says he is the Vicar of Christ, he is saying he is God. Again, the Catholic "church" has broken the 1st Commandment.

3) To worship means to "show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites." Catholics revere Mary to a point of worship. They believe she was sinless, despite the fact that the Bible says all have sinned, and that Mary herself said she needed a savior: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:46,47). She is called Queen of Heaven, yet the Book of Jeremiah describes "the queen of heaven" as a pagan goddess. This is not Mary.

"When the Church invokes Mary under the title, 'Coredemptrix', she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour." (from http://www.catholicsource.net...). According to the Bible, however, Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation (John 14:6); there is no "co-redemption" by Mary.

4) When the Catholic religion began in the early 300's A.D., it was designed to attract Roman citizens who were pagan. Roman emperor Constantine drew in "former" pagans by simply giving old pagan gods Christian names. He allowed pagan rituals and traditions to be continued while covered by a mask of Christianity.

In Genesis 10 and 11, we see parts of the story of Nimrod, who founded Babylonia.
Nimrod in a nutshell: He is outcasted, marries his mother, builds up a great empire, dies, mother/wife claims that their child (conceived before Nimrod's death), was given to her by the sun. This is the birth of false religion, or paganism. Nimrod's mother/wife was from then on called "Queen of Heaven", and the sun was worshipped. Priests would also wear "fish hats" to honor their river god (http://tinypic.com...). Now notice that the Catholic Mary is called "Queen of Heaven". Notice the halo (light; sun) in these Catholic renditions:

Read: http://www.aloha.net...

http://www.aloha.net...

Please read: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

All pagan religions are polytheistic (have multiple gods). Technically, the Catholic Church is polytheistic.
Catholic "gods": God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), the pope, Mary, and the canonized saints.
Christian God: God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

I thank my opponent in advance
God Bless!
Calvincambridge

Con

I gladly accept your challenge.
Debate Round No. 1
lfmskl

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting. I ask my opponent to state his rebuttal to my opening statement
Calvincambridge

Con

I is true that catholicism has many false doctrine that must be corrected but that does not mean it is not Christanity.

1.Catholics pray to dead saints and worship idols.

This is because extra books are in thier canon but let me ask you this


Do they still believe in and worship YHWH
Do they still believe that Jesus is the messiah,son of God and God. In regards to that christanity could be considered a form of polytheism with 3 deities

Yaweh
Jesus
Holy spirit
but they are all one

2. That is true but is is also not biblically nessary to have democracy and human rights either...

3. This is true but in thier minds they are only honoring her

4. True but like in my previous argument it is not nessary to celebrate christimas either and they also have pagen roots do we question them.
5.Like I said false doctrine but still christanity

I am not saying catholic doctrine is true but it is still christanity
Debate Round No. 2
lfmskl

Pro

My responses to my opponents rebuttals:

1) It is true that the Catholics believe in the existence of God and Jesus. However, according to the Bible, Satan knows they exist as well: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19). The difference is that Christians believe, and show their belief by obeying God's Word. Satan as well as Catholics acknowledge the existence of God, but they disobey Him. The fact that the Catholic canon contains 12 more books than Christians is irrelevant; these apocryphal books are set in the Old Testament. The validity of these extra books is for another debate. My opponent fails to quote from the "Catholic Bible" where it says to pray to dead saints as a mediator. It must be remembered that in II Timothy 2:5 it is said that the only mediator between God and man is Christ and Christ alone.

2) The Bible says nothing about democracy because the Bible is not a political essay. The Bible does, however, speak of human rights, quite extensively. Please read: http://www.gotquestions.org...
The fact that democracy is not specifically mentioned (though government is spoken about quite a bit), is very different than the Bible talking about church. Obviously the Bible will speak more of church than of politics. What does it say about the church and its leader? "And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church..." (Colossians 1:18a)

3) Romans 3:4: "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." It does not matter if they think they are only honoring her. If they were really Christian they would read their Bibles and see that this is idolatry.

4) It is true that the Bible never says to celebrate Christmas. It was a pagan celebration, proving my point. When the Romans were still pagans, they celebrated "Christmas", e.i., December 25. When the Romans founded the Catholic religion, they simply changed the names of characters in their old religion to "fit" with Christianity. The celebration of Christmas is due to the Catholic religion, proving that they have pagan roots.

5) How can false Christian doctrine be Christian?
Calvincambridge

Con

The apocryphal books are very relevant they give diffrent teachings to the people. I am working on reading the entire bible but I have not completed the task. Please recgonize I am not catholic I am protestent but it does not make it not christianity. I don't believe in praying to the saints and think thi is false doctrine. Protestents like you and me celebrate christmas regardless of its pagen roots but it is still Christianity. Mny protestents do not read the bible either. They have discarded old testament laws but they follow the teachings of Jesus .


"
religion that follows Jesus Christ's teachings: the religion based on the life, teachings, and example of Jesus Christ"

http://www.bing.com...;

We still eat pork ad shellfish but nowhere does it say

"For you may now consume pork and shellfish and voilate the kosher laws for they are no longer valid in my age"
Debate Round No. 3
lfmskl

Pro

The fact that ceremonial laws were abolished does not mean that the Ten Commandments were. Read the Sermon on the Mount for more. Jesus says that true Christianity will bring forth good fruit. During the papal inquisition, the Catholic religion ordered the deaths of over five million Christians. It was illegal to own a Bible. Is that a Christian law?

The Catholic religion is nothing but a cult.
Calvincambridge

Con

The catholic religon is not a cult. The ten commandments are not for Gentiles they are only for Jewish people. In hebraic tradition and the Bible support it. We do not have to follow the torah but we must follow the seven laws of Noah which are listed like this.
"
  • Prohibition of Idolatry
  • Prohibition of Murder
  • Prohibition of Theft
  • Prohibition of Sexual immorality
  • Prohibition of Blasphemy
  • Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
  • Establishment of courts of law "
  • (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

The catholic church has changed and is now bringing fourth better fruits. It is also aganist Christian law to divorce but we still do that
Debate Round No. 4
lfmskl

Pro

My opponent has failed to show me a verse stating that the Law spoken of so often is in fact Noah's Law instead of Moses's. In the Old Testament we see that the Law always refers to the Law of Moses. (See: http://www.biblegateway.com...).

It is only logical to say that Jesus, who was a Jew (and was speaking to Jews), meant Moses's Law when He spoke of the Law. Jesus stated that He does not abolish the Law, and that it will stand forever.

The Bible on the Ten Commandments:

Called "royal law." James 2:8
Spoken by God. Deuteronomy 4:12-13
Written by the finger of God. Exodus 31:18
Placed in the ark. Exodus 40:20; Hebrews 9:4
Will "stand forever and ever." Psalms 111:7-8
Not destroyed by Christ. Matthew 5:17-18

The Bible on the Ceremonial Law (Sacrifices, rituals, etc.)

Law "contained in ordinances." Ephesians 2:15
Spoken by Moses. Leviticus 1:1-3
Written by Moses in a book. II Corinthians 35:12
Placed to the side of the ark. Deuteronomy 31:24-26
Was nailed to the cross. Colossians 2:14
Was abolished by Christ. Ephesians 2:15

"The two great commandments are 'Love the Lord with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind.' The second great commandment is 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' God's ten commandments are hanging on these two. The first four, on the first table, tell us how to love God with all our heart. (Have no other Gods, not worship images, not take God's name in vain, and remember His Sabbath day to keep it holy.) The last six, on the second table deal with loving our neighbor as ourselves. (To honor our parents, not kill, not commit adultery, not steal, not lie, not covet.)

The old covenant was ratified by the blood of animals (Exodus 24:5-8 and Hebrews 9:19,20) and based upon the promises of the people that they would keep God's law.

The new covenant is based on God's promise to write His law in our hearts and it was ratified with the blood of Christ. (Hebrews 8:10 and Jeremiah 31:33,34.)

Hebrews 8:10 - 'For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.'" - From "National Sunday Law" by A. Jan Marcussen

My opponent says: "The catholic church has changed and is now bringing fourth better fruits." How? So they are no longer ordering the deaths of "heretics". They are still promoting idolatry and pagan worship. My opponent cites Noah's Laws. Please see Laws 1 and 5. "Prohibition of Idolatry" and "Prohibition of Blasphemy". The Catholic religion breaks both of these laws. Whether my opponent believes that we are to follow Noah's law instead of Moses's is beside the point; either way, Catholics break the fundamental laws of Christianity. I was born and raised Catholic until I learned the truth. I subjected myself to their rituals. What converted me? It was no special vision that turned me from the Catholic faith; I simply began reading the Bible. How can a religion claim to be Christian, yet I can read the Bible and convert from that religion?

I will end on an interesting note: "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six (666)." The antichrist is a man identified by a number. The official title on the pope's mitre is "Vicarius Filii Dei", meaning "Vicar of the Son of God". Take the Roman numeral system to find the numerical equivalent to this phrase.

("U" and "V" have the same value. Look in your encyclopedia under "Alphabet.")

V = 5
I = 1
C = 100
A = 0
R = 0
I = 1
U = 5
S = 0

F = 0
I = 1
L = 50
I = 1
I = 1
D = 500
E = 0
I = 1
----------- Total = 666!
In Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, it comes out the same.

Please read "National Sunday Law" for more on how it is a possibility the pope is the antichrist and the Vatican is the Whore of Babylon. The full book can be read here: http://www.seventh-day.org...

I ask that my opponent will not bring up any new points as I will not have a chance to rebut. Thank you.

God Bless!
Calvincambridge

Con

It is true but Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jews who are expected to follow the law of Moses. However it is diffrent for Gentiles.


Love-
"a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2.
a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3.
sexual passion or desire.
to have love or affection for: All her pupils love her.
16.
to have a profoundly tender, passionate affection for (another person).
17.
to have a strong liking for; take great pleasure in: to love music.
to have love or affection for another person; be in love.
22.
love up, to hug and cuddle: She loves him up every chance she gets.
23.
for love,
a.
out of affection or liking; for pleasure.
b.
without compensation; gratuitously: He took care of the poor for love.
24.
for the love of, in consideration of; for the sake of: For the love of mercy, stop that noise.
25.
in love, infused with or feeling deep affection or passion: a youth always in love. " (http://dictionary.reference.com...)
As you can see love can be expressed in many different ways to them it does not include worshiping other things as not loving YHWH.
How has the Roman catholic church commited blasyphemy. Just because the pope supports false doctrine that HE was TAUGHT as a child does not mean he is the anti-christ that is a innacurate and extreme claim.

Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by izbo10 5 years ago
izbo10
Well when he stops acting like a 5 year old and believing in fairy tales then tell me to grow up until then he is the one who believes in fairy tales(bible).
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
I think its sad that your 30 and I act more mature than you do.
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
Your not insulting religion, your insulting people with childish animosity. You're acting like a 9 year old.
Posted by Calvincambridge 5 years ago
Calvincambridge
guess its hopeless hitler will fight on my soil like it or not
Posted by izbo10 5 years ago
izbo10
when did it become a rule i must respect religion, if it did f that I don't need to follow that rule.
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
Izbo, stop being so disrespectful, i can assure you it will get you nowhere in life.
Posted by Calvincambridge 5 years ago
Calvincambridge
Plese don't have Izbo war 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 on my debate comments.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
"oxymoron alert in sentence 1 of retardeds response, nonbias christian report."
I find it amusing to see that you understand the word 'oxymoron', since it clearly isn't being used in RA's first sentence. Your reasoning, that 'nonbias' and 'christian' are opposites in linguistic units, lie entirely on your own interpretation, and own prejudices. I'd call it 'unprejudiced Izbo' an oxymoron, perhaps both the word and the clause 'moron' as well....that is, if one follows your heuristic skills....
Posted by Gileandos 5 years ago
Gileandos
Izbo, slavery can be very moral. It is just not currently cultural.

What is in your heart that has caused such hatred?
Posted by izbo10 5 years ago
izbo10
oxymoron alert in sentence 1 of retardeds response, nonbias christian report.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Cerebral_Narcissist 5 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
lfmsklCalvincambridgeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Con should not have taken a debate that they no intention of fighting. He effectively forfeited.
Vote Placed by larztheloser 5 years ago
larztheloser
lfmsklCalvincambridgeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Countering Reformed's vote. "It doesn't matter what Con says if you cannot even get the basics right" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how debates work - there are no "basics" beyond what Con says. Both sides should have spent more characters engaging with the other side's argument.
Vote Placed by Danielle 5 years ago
Danielle
lfmsklCalvincambridgeTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: I agree with Con, but I don't think Con did a better job at debating his side. He failed to address some of Pro's points, however weak I thought they might be. I have to judge based on what was presented and not my own personal opinion. If Pro would like to debate this with me, I'll accept the challenge :)
Vote Placed by darkkermit 5 years ago
darkkermit
lfmsklCalvincambridgeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: PRO demonstrates that the catholic teachings violate the 10 commandments and that it is necessary to follow the 10 commandments to be a christian
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
lfmsklCalvincambridgeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: See Comment. Also, I voted against you for sources because you don't get to just reference essays someone else wrote and use them as your arguments.