The Instigator
drewman1
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Hunter611
Con (against)
Tied
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Catholicism is the base of Christianity

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 567 times Debate No: 42264
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

drewman1

Pro

There has been many debates in which people claim that the Catholic Faith is not the center of all Christianity, some claim to argue it is not even Christian. I challenge that argument and I want to debate any one who thinks Catholicism is not the center of Christianity, or is not Christian at all. Resources can come from any point in history, but the Bible or the Didache are highly recommended. The opponent may use any tactic he/she wants including references to how cruel the Catholic Church was or how Catholic Priests abused boys. Give me your best argument, and if we do not finish in five rounds, I will open a new debate to continue. There are no rules, only fair and non-abusive debating. Best of luck. God Bless
Hunter611

Con

Hello, I am Christian, and I do not believe it is the center at all, when Catholicism was first established, it was quite different from Christianity. For example, the majority of non-catholic Christians do not believe in what I call the "grace tank" redemption. You sin, your grace tank gets low, you confess it goes back up. And then the Catholics pray to and worship the virgin Mary, as though she is Gods daughter. At one point the concept of purgatory was introduced, which is found nowhere in the Bible and was simply created by the Catholic Church back in the middle ages. Many of the Catholics recommend baptism at birth, while most non-catholic Christian churches think that's ridiculous. Baptism is supposed to be a choice made by the person in question, not the parents. So all in all, no Catholicism is not the base of Christianity. There's so many differences and disagreements between them, and Christianity had been along well before the Catholic view of Christianity emerged.
Debate Round No. 1
drewman1

Pro

Thank you for debating with me, I hope this will be a peaceful and loving debate, and who knows maybe we will both learn something from this. The first thing I would like to ask you is this, when was Catholicism established and by who? If you say that Catholicism is different from Christianity when it was first established, you and I are talking about two different religions. Christianity, as you and I both know, was established by Jesus, however denominations, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. did not form until a lot longer down the road. Christianity's first major split was known as the great schism in the late 900's, early 1000's, just before the crusades. They split into the east and west, west held on to the tradition of the Pope (which the Catholic Church traces it's Popes back to) and the east held on to their tradition of Patriarchs. Their Church's structure, as far as worship and things like that, has not changed since the schism. The west is known today as the Roman Catholic Church, the east known as the Orthodox or Eastern rite Catholic Church. The main difference between us two is that the orthodox is not in union with the Pope, however the Roman Catholic Church can trace her popes all the way back to St. Peter. Non-Catholic Churches were not established until the 1500's when Martin Luther started the Protestant reformation. He was actually a devout Catholic until he undermined the authority of the Church. Non-Catholic Churches actually came from Catholicism. Now your "grace-tank" redemption theory is incorrect. Catholic teaching tells us that sinning damages your relationship with God, just as lying and betrayal can damage a friendship. However God is always there ready to forgive. I am sure you and I have the same idea. But, God can not forgive if we do not want forgiveness, correct? And so we confess to God asking Him forgiveness, and grace to help us not to sin again. Just as the grace from Jesus' cross won for us salvation, so too does grace help us not to sin. Its not the grace that saves us, but helps us. Moving on to the Blessed Mother, Mary, I would be concerned too if Catholics worshiped her, for the first commandment is this, "I Am the Lord your God, you shall not have strange God's before me." Mary is not, in any way,equal to God, nor does she come close. However, Catholics hold her in high respect because she is the Mother of Jesus. The reason we hold her in such high regard is this. Luke 1: 48, Mary says "Behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed." And this is true, because Catholics refer to her as "The Blessed Mother." Why do we call her our mother? Because of what Our Lord said on the cross, "'Woman, behold, your son.' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother.'" John 19:26-27 This, we believe is Jesus giving us His mother, and us to her. The reason we pray to her is this. If I were going to have surgery, I would ask my friend to pray for me so that it all goes well. Now, why on earth wouldn't I ask the Mother of Jesus, Queen of Heaven and Earth, to pray for me as well? And yes, she is queen. "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." Revelation 12:1. If this isnt Mary, who is it? Also, the concept of Purgatory has been around since before Jesus. Her from the Old Testament book of Job, "Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them." Job 1:5 He states that praying for the dead will help them. Well, how could it help the dead if they're in heaven or hell? Also in Maccabees Maccabees 12:46: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." This thought of Purgatory has always been accepted from the beginning, for it is the final purification before Heaven, just as gold is refined in fire, so we too are refined in Purgatory. Baptizing at birth was always a conflict before non-Catholic Churches were even established. That is why some broke off. The reasoning behind it is simple. We take the tradition of baptizing after birth from the Jewish tradition. Remember when Jesus was presented to the Temple to be circumcised? Well, that was the accepting into the Jewish religion, just as Baptism is the same for Christianity. The reason we baptize at infancy is because Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again with water and the Spirit, he shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." So we baptize children as a safety net, however it is not completed until confirmation. Confirmation is the sacrament around the age of 13 where the child chooses whether or not to be Christian, a disciple of Jesus. This is fulfilling the Baptismal promises. And yes there is many differences and disagreements, however all other Christian Churches branch off of the Catholic Church, if you do not believe me, read the history of the Catholic Church.
Hunter611

Con

I noticed you refereed to Mary as the "Queen of Heaven and Earth" How so? I'm not saying she isn't as I have no way of knowing, but as far as I've understood, God is the All-Powerful ruler of Heaven and the Earth. The verse you quoted in Revelation does not directly state Mary is this woman."And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." And yes, most non-catholic churches did come from Catholic Churches. But does that make Catholicism the base of Christianity? Not how I see it. I know much of the ways of Catholics, since my best friend is one and we often have discussions about this very topic. Now I do not personally believe that Purgatory was already accepted before the Catholic Church was established. You could be referring to Abraham's bosom, which was where the Bible said the dead went to before Jesus came and died for us. I do not truly believe that baptize a child as an infant does anything. If its a safety net I don't think that its a valid net if the child chooses not to believe Christianity. I myself have been baptized quite recently actually. Its a conscious choice. An infant can't chose to do that on its own and thus I do not believe the baptizing of a child is valid. But that's irrelevant.

So my arguments are
1: Just because most/majority of churches branched off the Catholic Church does not make it the base of Christianity
You might as well compare U.S.A to England. Is England the base of American culture?

2. Even if the above argument is refuted, there are so many differences between the Catholic Church and the non-Catholic Churches, even if they did branch off of it, it doesn't justify calling it the base of Christianity.

3. The concept of Purgatory. When Jesus came down to Earth, lets use this analogy. Along his life he was building a bridge from Heaven to Earth. At what point did he stop at make a little detour that says "Turn here, Purgatory ahead" Unless of course, you had bought a pass that the priests in the middle ages sold. You could just spend a few bucks and get a reduction of your sentence in Purgatory!
Debate Round No. 2
drewman1

Pro

Not a majority of Churches branched off of Catholicism, but all non-Catholic Churches branched off the Catholic Church. The term Catholic Church, believe it or not, was first used around 70 A.D Also, there may not be as many differences as you think, the way I see it there are no differences at all, its only the Catholic Church has things other Churches don't. The basic doctrine is exactly the same. Now you say Catholicism is different from Christian Churches, how so if Catholicism was first? And the vision in Revelation is Mary. I am sure you have heard of Our Lady of Guadalupe. That image of Our Lady is the exact same image describe in Revelations. Now purgatory is a hard concept, but rather plain and simple. Jesus died on the cross and won for us Salvation, however Revelations tells us "No one unclean will enter it.." Rev. 21:27 So Jesus' death had to have washed us clean from sin, but when? When and where are those sins washed clean? This is what we refer to as Purgatory, the place where that cleansing takes place. And Baptism at infancy,please tell me where in the Bible Baptism is restricted to just adults, because the Bible says concerning baptism "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" Acts 2:39 Baptism is when you become adopted children of God, and Jesus said "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14). However,I can not change your beliefs, because you put your faith in what your Church teaches, and I do not in any way want you to give up your faith and system of beliefs and convert to Catholicism, rather, I want you have a deeper respect and understanding of the Catholic Church, as I have a deep and healthy respect for all Protestant Churches that hold true to the teachings of the Bible.
Hunter611

Con

You act as though the Catholic Church caused Christianity to exist, not the other way around. Catholicism is another way of interpreting Christianity, not the base of Christianity. In my opinion, the only base of Christianity is that Jesus died on the cross and rose again. And as Rev. 21:27 states "Let no one unclean enter it" I believe that Jesus washes away our sins when we accept him. If we sin after said event, he simply forgives us, since he is quite forgiving. And as for your final statement, I never did say I have no respect for the Catholic Church. I simply said I do not consider such to be the base of all Christianity. Now I am quite familiar with the image of the Lady of Guadalupe. If she is the virgin Mary, she does not look like how revelations described her "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." Revelation 12:1 She has the sun around her, but not clothed in it, she has no crown of twelve stars, her hood may have stars on it, yes, but I do not consider that a crown. http://en.wikipedia.org... I also checked multiple other places, to make sure my memory of what she looks like serves correct.
Debate Round No. 3
drewman1

Pro

Catholicism did not create Christianity, Catholicism was Christianity. There was not any other Christian Religion except for the Catholic Church. Of course this is a relative statement because Catholicism was split into the east and west. Non-Catholic Churches never came about until the 1500's I am not sure you are familiar with the Didache, but it was non the Biblical teachings of the Apostles, which explained worship and base beliefs. This is the base of Catholic teaching and worship. My argument is that Catholicism is like the trunk of a tree and non-catholic Churches are the branches, where Catholicism is the center. If there wasn't Catholicism there wouldn't be Christianity because Catholicism dates back to around 70 A.D, just after Jesus died. Also, if you claim yourself a Christian, you believe in the Bible and you profess something known as the Nicene Creed, or the short version, The Apostles Creed. These creeds were written by Catholic doctrine, centuries before the protestant reformation, which was the first time non-Catholic Churches were established.
Hunter611

Con

To your tree analogy, I like to think of the life of Jesus is the base, and Catholicism was the first branch. The others branched off of this main branch. If there wasn't Jesus there would be no Catholicism. Therefore Jesus is the base of Christianity not catholicism
Debate Round No. 4
drewman1

Pro

I have to admit, the way you explained your tree is better than mine, let me rephrase my tree analogy. The Apostles gave a list of teachings, besides from the Bible. The Catholic Church is the only Christian denomination that holds on to ALL the traditions and teachings. And, just so I am clear, you agree with me that Catholicism is Christian. Because at first, it sounded like you said it was not christian at all.
Hunter611

Con

Yes I do agree Catholicism is Christianity, just a very different form compared to others. And as for tradition, should we go back a few ages like the Amish, because it's more traditional?
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by CynicalDiogenes 3 years ago
CynicalDiogenes
It follows all the teachings that were given.The full tradition.

Protestantism is fractured into the 5 'Solas':Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone"),Sola fide ("by faith alone"),Sola gratia ("by grace alone"),Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone").

Catholicism follows all 5 in a harmonious fashion.
Posted by Hunter611 3 years ago
Hunter611
In reply to that, what teachings does it follow that other do not?
Posted by daley 3 years ago
daley
please vote on my debate: "Theist": is a Transitional Form In Human Cultural/Cognitive Evolution..this debate is great so far. too bad i can't vote because i can't confirm my ID. my country Barbados isn't listed in the options
Posted by CynicalDiogenes 3 years ago
CynicalDiogenes
The branch that shoots out first forms the trunk.Catholicism came out first and has the greatest strength numerically, doctrinal-wise and and is the only church that follows the full teachings of Christ(scripture and tradition)
thus only it can be the trunk.The other branches merely 'protested' out of her, and are separated from the historical Jesus in both time and space.
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