The Instigator
Church_of_Christ_Member
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Confucius91
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points

Catholicism practices Christianity

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Confucius91
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/30/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,601 times Debate No: 16782
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (75)
Votes (1)

 

Church_of_Christ_Member

Con

The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Apostolic Catholic Church, is the world's largest "Christian church", claiming more than a billion members but does not practice Christianity because of its doctrines, practices, and beliefs which are false and not according to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. These are the Catholic doctrines, practices, and beliefs which are still practiced by the Roman Apostolic Catholic Church until today:

1. Using statues and graven images during their worship, and kneeling to them when they pray.
2. Claiming Apostle Peter as the first pope.
3. Using the Latin language during the priests' sermons.
4. Calling the priests "Father."
5. Naming the pope as "Holy Father" and claiming him as the Vicarius Filii Dei or Vicar of the Son of God (substitute of Christ here on Earth).
6. Praying in repetition and using the rosary to do it.
7. Prohibiting priests in marrying.
8. Claiming Mary The Mother of Jesus as an intercessor or mediator other than Christ, and naming her as "The Queen of Heaven," "Mother of God," etc..
9. Baptizing infants.
10. Praying or interceding for the dead.
11. Bowing down to the pope.
12. Pouring water on the heads, instead of immersing in water, and calling it the act of baptism.
13. Only the priests can drink the wine during the Lord's Supper, and the members are not allowed hence they are allowed to eat the bread only.
14. Believing in purgatory.
15. Praying and worshiping to saints (dead saints) and to Mary The Mother of Jesus.
16. Claiming that the Bible is not a sufficient proof for doctrine.
17. Celebrating feasts for the saints (dead saints) as a sign of worship to them and celebrating Christmas or the birth of Christ on December 25.
18. Adding and taking away anything in the Bible.
19. Traditions made by men.

I think these are just some of the doctrines, practices and beliefs (false doctrines, practices and beliefs to be exact). I will state my reasons and prove why the given Catholic doctrines, practices and beliefs are false and not profitable for salvation, by using of course the Holy Scriptures, which is the Bible in the next round.
A billion of people are fooled and lost due to this religion and if you're a Catholic, which you are Mr. Confucius91, and if you will not change (your beliefs, your practices, your religion), James 4:17, "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is a sin."(NKJV) If you know that the doctrines , practices and beliefs of your religion are wrong and if you won't leave your religion, just like James 4:17 says, you know what to do and you don't do it, you have sinned.
Seek for a church, which is the Church of Christ, that teaches pure salvation and does not teach and practice man-made doctrines and traditions.
May this be a good debate and God bless you Sir.
Confucius91

Pro

I thank my opponent for his challenge. I have a few comments before our debate begins:

1. I ask my opponent that he will refrain from using the "Shotgun"-tactic. He has listed 19 accusations against Catholicism and I will not be able to provide a good answer to all of them at once in 8000 characters.
In my last Catholic vs. Protestant-debate, I kept my arguments down to 3-4 and so did my opponent. So I hope that we will have a debate based on quality rather than quantity.

2. "I will state my reasons and prove why the given Catholic doctrines, practices and beliefs are false and not profitable for salvation, by using of course the Holy Scriptures, which is the Bible in the next round"

My opponent seems to be presupposing Sola Scriptura and private judgement. He must first justify these assumptions. If not, he will be begging the question.

3. I'd prefer Mr. Lindgren-Andersen :)

Good luck to my opponent and good entertainment for the voters.
Debate Round No. 1
Church_of_Christ_Member

Con

Thank you, Mr. Confucius91 for responding to my argument. I believe that Mr.Confucius91 is a practicing Catholic and I believe that he will agree that the Catholic Church does all of the 19 statements I posed (I was a Catholic until I was 14 years old, that's why I knew all the doctrines of the Catholic Church) which are all about the Catholic beliefs, practices, and doctrines.


By the way, I had said this statement in the past round ("I will state my reasons and prove why the given Catholic doctrines, practices and beliefs are false and not profitable for salvation, by using of course the Holy Scriptures, which is the Bible in the next round") because I am surely sure that the 19 statements about the Catholic doctrines, practices, and beliefs I posed in the previous round are not biblical and not according to the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


To prove that the listed 19 Catholic doctrines, practices, and beliefs are wrong , I will use the Bible. I will combine some doctrines so that there would be enough space.


1. Using statues/idols and graven images during their worship, and kneeling to them when they pray.

- The Ten Commandments command in Exodus 20:3-5: "Worship no god but me. Do not make for yourselves images of anything in heaven or on earth or in the water under the earth. Do not bow down to any idol (An idol can be defined as an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion) or worship it, because I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals (KJV)." Another passage from the Book of Exodus that talks about idols/graven images/statues, which is in Exodus 20:23, "So you must never make idols of silver or gold to worship in place of me (Contemporary English Version)." The following verses you have read, clearly state that God prohibits Israel even us for making idols to represent God and replace Him.


Idols can't do a thing and it is found in Psalms 115:3-8, "But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but they do not speak; eyes they have, but they do not see; they have ears, but they do not hear; noses they have, but they do not smell; they have hands, but they do not handle; feet they have, but they do not walk; nor do they mutter through their throat. Those who make them are like them; so is everyone who trusts in them (NKJV)."

If Catholics will say that the idols do miracles and they came from God, they're totally wrong. Because in Isaiah 42:8, it states that:"I am the Lord:that is my name:and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images (KJV)."

In the New Testament Times, idols are still prohibited. 1 John 5:21, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen (NKJV)." And lastly a warning from Revelation 21:8, which warns us:"But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars-the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death (KJV)."


2.
Claiming Apostle Peter as the first pope.

- Catholics believe that Apostle Peter was the first pope, because of this statement, which shows that our Lord Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Apostle Peter, which can be found at Matthew 16:18-19, and says that, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven (NKJV)."

It is true that our Lord Jesus Christ gave Apostle Peter the keys of heaven but it doesn't necessarily mean that he was the first pope and founder of Catholicism, because according to the doctrines of the Catholic church, popes are prohibited to marry. But Apostle Peter was married. And this was proved, and can be found in Matthew 8:14, which states that:"Now when Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw his wife's mother lying sick with a fever (NKJV)." Apostle Peter had a mother-in-law, therefore he was married.

And I heard that Apostle Peter was also called the foundation of the church by Catholics, because his name (Peter, "Petros" in Greek) means the "rock," so Catholics thought that the "rock" in Matthew 16:18 was Apostle Peter.


But in 1 Corinthians 3:11, states that:"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ (NKJV)." It clearly states in this verse that Jesus was the foundation of the church, not Peter, and the "rock" found in Matthew 16:18 was a real rock, and not Peter. Jesus was pointing to a rock when He was saying in Matthew 16:18, "on this rock I will build my church."

By the way, here is a speech made by a Catholic bishop against the idea that Apostle Peter was the first pope:

"Therefore, to resume, I establish: (1) that Jesus has given to His apostles the same power that He gave to St. Peter. (2) That the apostles never recognized in St. Peter the vicar of Jesus Christ and the infallible doctor of the church. (3) That St. Peter never thought of being pope, and never acted as if he were pope...I conclude victoriously, with history, with reason, with logic, with good sense, and with a Christian conscience, that Jesus Christ did not confer any supremacy on St. Peter and that the bishops of Rome did not become sovereigns of the church, but only confiscating one by one all the rights of the episcopate." (This, along with many arguments against papal infallibility, was said by Bishop Joseph Strossmayer in his speech before the Vatican Council in 1870).
(source:http://www.bible.ca...)


3
. Adding and taking away anything in the Bible, traditions made by men, using the rosary , and claiming that the Bible is not a sufficient proof for doctrine.
-The Catholic Church has so many traditions (patron feasts, Holy week, using the rosary during prayer, praying for the dead to be saved in purgatory, idol worshiping, and praying to dead saints and to Mary) which are generally made by men, and not according to the Bible and to the teachings of Jesus Christ.


But first, here are Bible verses that tell Christians that the Bible is a sufficient proof for doctrine, and all in it should not be added or subtracted.

2 Timothy 3:15-16: "And that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God , and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

John 14:15: "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Deuteronomy 12:32: “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it."

1 Corinthians 15:1-2: "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain."

Galatians 1:9: "As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Test all things; hold fast what is good."

Romans 3:4a: "Certainly not! Indeed , let God be true but every man a liar."

These verses clearly state that the Bible is the only book that teaches salvation and not doctrines made by men. These verses also state that all of the commandments and teachings in the Bible should not be added or changed. Human-made doctrines are made by men, therefore these doctrines are not to be followed.


All of the doctrines of the Catholic Church I posed in the 1st round are not according to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(The continuation of this and other things will be on the 3rd round.)







Confucius91

Pro

All right, here we go.

"he will agree that the Catholic Church does all of the 19 statements I posed"

Not at all.

3, 13 and 18 are obviously false. Especially 3 and 13 show that my opponents claim of "...I was a Catholic until I was 14 years old, that's why I knew all the doctrines of the Catholic Church..." is extremely questionable. Considering that he is very young and born after Vatican II, there is just no way to have been a Catholic and believe the above.

8,15,17,19 are completely misrepresented.

My opponent also seems to have completely ignored my opening statement, where I warned him against begging the question about Sola Scriptura and using Shotgun-tactics. Alas, I guess it can not be helped.

1. Using statues/idols and graven images during their worship, and kneeling to them when they pray.

All right, I guess the debate has to turn to a Bible-interpretation ad nauseam.


Regarding Exodus, this is basically a warning against idolatry. However, God himself appears in several "idolatrous" ways, such as a burning bush and a strong wind. He even commissions the fiery serpent. We must distinguish between idolatry and sacramentalism.


"If Catholics will say that the idols do miracles and they came from God, they're totally wrong."

God can and has used material "dispensers" of grace. Matter can not do this by itself, but only by God.

Catholics are anti-idolatry and pro-sacramentalism.

2. Claiming Apostle Peter as the first pope.

"according to the doctrines of the Catholic church, popes are prohibited to marry"

False claim. The Catholic Church has made a disciplinary decision to not allow priests to marry. It is not a doctrine and could be changed.


1 Corinthians 3:11

Christ is naturally the principal and, since he will be returning to heaven, the invisible foundation of the Church that he will establish; but Peter is named by him as the secondary and, because he and his successors will remain on earth, the visible foundation. Peter can be a foundation only because Christ is the cornerstone.

In fact, the New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5-6, Rev. 21:14). One cannot take a single metaphor from a single passage and use it to twist the plain meaning of other passages. Rather, one must respect and harmonize the different passages, for the Church can be described as having different foundations since the word foundation can be used in different senses.

Protestants are too often steeped in Either/Or-reasoning. Catholics on the other hand say, Yes/And.

3. Adding and taking away anything in the Bible, traditions made by men, using the rosary , and claiming that the Bible is not a sufficient proof for doctrine.

The Catholic Church has so many traditions (patron feasts, Holy week, using the rosary during prayer, praying for the dead to be saved in purgatory, idol worshiping, and praying to dead saints and to Mary) which are generally made by men, and not according to the Bible and to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Ignoring the blatant misinterpretation of Catholic teaching (trust me, it does test my patience), how many things do you do, which you cannot find in the Bible? Excuse me, but when was the last time Saint Paul had an account on Debate.org? Where were the altar calls of 33 AD? Where was the Bible itself in 33 AD?



"But first, here are Bible verses that tell Christians that the Bible is a sufficient proof for doctrine, and all in it should not be added or subtracted."

No. None of these verses say anything about the collection of 66 books (Protestant) known as the Bible in common language.

My opponent's best shot is 2 Timothy, but that is flawed as well. Read in context:

"And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus."

The Holy Scriptures mentioned is the Old Testament. When Timothy was an infant, there was no such thing as the New Testament, neither written nor canonized.

Conclusion

My opponent has ignored my opening statement for the debate. He is presupposing Sola Scriptura and his own authority to interpret Sacred Scripture dogmatically. He also seems determined to continue his Shotgun-tactics: "(The continuation of this and other things will be on the 3rd round.)"



Debate Round No. 2
Church_of_Christ_Member

Con

Church_of_Christ_Member forfeited this round.
Confucius91

Pro

My opponent has forfeited once again. He has requested me to restart the debate again and I have declined. He may challenge me again later on, when he can guarantee he will be available.
Debate Round No. 3
Church_of_Christ_Member

Con

Church_of_Christ_Member forfeited this round.
Confucius91

Pro

Confucius91 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
75 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
Paul using Father
1 Corinthians 4:15 - For though you have countless guides in Christ, you don not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

1 Timothy 1:2 - To Timothy, my true child in the faith (Calling Timothy his child implies that he considers himself to be Timothy's spiritual father. Especially since he has set this precedent in 1 Corinthians)

Philemon 1:10 - I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my impresonment. (Confirms that when he calls someone his child, he considers himself to be their father)

Pastor
Ephesians 4:11 - and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds (most often translated pastor after the Latin word for shepherd) and teachers

Bishop (Translated in most Protestant translations as "Overseer" comes from "Episcopos" which means "one who looks over". Bishop is preserved in the KJV)
Philippians 1:1 - Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons - Bishops already present in Philippi during Paul's writing

1 Timothy 3:1 - The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task - Bishops either present, or preparing to name Bishops in Ephesus during Paul's writing

1 Timothy 3:2 - Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach

Titus 1:7 - For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain. - Bishops either present, or preparing to name Bishops in Crete during Paul's writing
Posted by DAN123 5 years ago
DAN123
Pls. put in the specific verse and i"ll investigate
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
They most certainly are used in the early Church and even in the Bible.

Paul calls himself Timothy's Spiritual Father, he uses the same language about the Corinthians. In addition, he writes in Ephesians 4 that some are given to be pastors. The word Bishop (Usually translated as Overseer, comes from the Greek word "Episcopos") is also present and instructions are given for those would be Bishops.

These terms are deeply biblical.
Posted by DAN123 5 years ago
DAN123
i'm sorry if i am not familiar with denominational names but i think the term"pope" and other denominational names like "pastor" , "father" and "Reverend" which are condemned in Matt. 23 is not used in the early church!
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
Think of it this way. You call the pastor at your church "My pastor" while you would call the pastor at any other church "the pastor."

Another example is that I call the pastor at my church by his first name "Pastor Caleb" while you would probably call him by his last name "Pastor Ingersoll"

It is the same kind of concept. Pope was simply a term of affection showing a closer relationship
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
The word Pope is simply an affection form of the Latin word for Father. It was a term of affection for your bishop. So if I lived in Alexandria when Athanasius was the Bishop, I would call him Pope while I would call the Bishop of Rome Bishop. Over time as the Eastern and Western Churches split, in the West the Bishop of Rome began to emerge as a Bishop of more significance, so he became "My Bishop" for the whole western Church, in addition to their localized Bishop. Eventually they stopped calling their local Bishop "Pope" and that title became a technical title for the Bishop of Rome.

He was the first Bishop of Rome, and the Pope for people in Rome. He was not the Pope in the way we use the term Pope now.
Posted by DAN123 5 years ago
DAN123
what do you mean "it was used in the early church"
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
DAN123,

It takes a humble follower of Christ to admit when they have made a mistake.

When you understand the roots of the meaning of the word Pope and how it was used in the early Church... there is no problem with calling Peter the first Pope. However, if you conceive of the Pope as the modern Papacy (since about 1300) then you have problems.
Posted by DAN123 5 years ago
DAN123
as i have studied I Pet. 2:8, i think you are right, but that doesn't prove the papacy of Peter.

and the earlier comment was based on I Pet. 2:4-5. Sorry
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
"Excuse me, but when was the last time Saint Paul had an account on Debate.org?"

Now, wait a minute, Jesus apparently has an account on Facebook.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by VocMusTcrMaloy 5 years ago
VocMusTcrMaloy
Church_of_Christ_MemberConfucius91Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct to Pro because Con forfeited. Convincing arguments to Pro, because Con misrepresented the position of the Catholic Church and argued from assumptions. Reliable sources to Pro because Con assumed the Bible as an only source without PROVING it to be so. I am Protestant as is Con, but I feel that the Protestant view was misrepresented as well!