The Instigator
Phoenix61397
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Catholics are Christians

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Phoenix61397
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,430 times Debate No: 59860
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (26)
Votes (1)

 

Phoenix61397

Pro

I saw that you are opposed to this position and would like to challenge you to a friendly debate about it. My position is that Catholics are and should be considered Christians.

Definition of Christian:
A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

My opponent may argue right away. I ask that in round 4 that they simply type "pass" and nothing else in order to keep this debate fair. I await my opponent's acceptance. Thank you.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

My arguments iwlll all be in the comments, sorry. I'm really not much for debate ettiquette.
Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. The Catholic Church fits very well as The Great Whore of the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Chapter 17) given to the apostle John while he was in exile on the Isle of Patmos.

Really I just want to make this statement to clarify that I am totally against Cotholicism and all of it's religious practices which are absolutely unable to save anybody from the fire of Hell. No offense intended, Im not good at sugar coating the truth.
Debate Round No. 1
Phoenix61397

Pro

As much as my opponent wishes to debate in the comments, in accordance with DDO standards, all voting will be conducted concerning only arguments offered in the normal debate area. My opponent may continue to offer comments, but I remind him voters may not assess the comments as part of their voting criteria. My opponent has accepted the debate and offered arguments, and so he has taken on full responsibility for this debate. My opponent also, by accepting this debate, has accepted the proposed definition of "Christian." I believe this definition to be fair and objective. Any other arguments concerning other beliefs fall under the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Now onto my arguments. I will offer opening arguments only for this round and rebut later.

Catholics are Christians

1) Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and follow all of his teachings [1]. Catholics also must be baptized [2]. As the teachings and practices of Christian denominations nowadays vary greatly, to be a Christian, one must simply need to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and believe him as Lord and Savior. These arguments alone are sufficient to satisfy the BoP laid out in the definition of Christian. However, I will offer a second argument.

2) Christianity and Protestantism are not synonymous. In fact, Catholicism was the original branch of Christianity. Following Jesus' death, his followers formed a religion that would be called "The Way" or "Christianity" [3]. This Christian community would later describe itself as Catholic in order to combat the Arian heresy in the fourth century [3]. The Catholic Church would lay many of the doctrines for Protestants later to follow, such as the doctrine of the Trinity (in 325 AD) and the Catholic Church would also create and protect the Bible for thousands of years before Protestantism existed [3]. Protestant denominations would later spring out from the Catholic Church when in disagreement with Catholic Doctrines during the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. They adopted many similar doctrines to the Catholic Church. As Catholicism was the original branch of Christianity, and other branches changed the original tenets of Christianity, Catholics must be considered Christians.

Conclusion

Therefore, as Catholics retain the required beliefs to be considered a Christian, and are proven historically to be the main and original branch of Christianity, one cannot logically consider Catholics to be unchristian. Thanks goes to my opponent for his acceptance of the debate. I will rebut his arguments next round.

Sources
[1]http://www.usccb.org...
[2] http://www.catholic.com...
[3] http://catholicbridge.com...
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Every branch of Christianity is grafted into the vine. Jesus is the vine, I am part of His branches. His Spirit is the life of the vine and the branches. Only an act of God can graft you into His vine. Nothing any priest, pope, or yourself can do will make that happen, no list of penances or performance of sacraments can make that happen. Once it happens, it's done forever and you are God's property forever. Catholics make great Christians if they get grafted by God into the vine of Jesus Christ

A Christian is a person who knows their sins are forgiven, fully paid for by the blood of God, God the Son, Jesus Christ. A Christian is a person who knows without doubt that they are saved now, completely and forever forgiven now, and sure without doubt that they are going to heaven. Catholicism is a fraudulent attempt to claim the authority of Jesus Christ through a man who pretends to be the embodiment of Jesus Christ today: the Pope. Catholicism enslaves its followers by forbidding them any assurance of salvation today so they must forever perform more and more sacraments, good works, payments to and purchases from the Catholic church to try to secure God's favor based on their own performances. People fall for this kind of religious practice because is caters to pride, encouraging them to trust in their own goodness so they can flatter themselves into thinking they are too good to burn in Hell.

Catholicism uses a lot of Christian terminology and bible quotes taken out of context to support their fraudulent claims to be Christian.


This is wearisome to me. People who think they are too good to burn in Hell and trust in the dogmas of a religion to get them out of it are tough cookies to crack. Even the best Catholic deserves to burn in Hell the same as me, and nothing they can do and nothing the Pope says or does, nothing any priest says or does, no performance of sacraments, and no amount of other people's prayers or penances on their behalf can get them out of deserving to burn in Hell. It is a mistake to trust in Catholicism. There is no hope in the Pope.
Debate Round No. 2
Phoenix61397

Pro

I thank my opponent for the argument.

I will now rebut my opponent's arguments. I will assign each paragraph of my opponent's last argument a number and rebut them.

1) It seems as though most of my opponent's argument revolves around a singular point. It claims that Sola Fide (Justification by Faith Alone) is required to be a Christian. Firstly, this is entirely a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, as my opponent bases his argument entirely on the denial of Catholic teachings. He claims Catholics aren't Christians simply because he doesn't believe what they believe. Secondly, many Bible verses reject Sola Fide.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."
James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Revelation 2:23: "Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."

2) This is pretty similar to the above rebuttal. My opponent uses more than a few ad hominem attacks (such as stating "they [Catholics] can flatter themselves into thinking they are too good to burn in hell") and "No True Scotsman" arguments to essentially say that Catholicism is wrong because it rejects Sola Fide, and that makes it unchristian. My opponent makes the incorrect assumption that the Pope claims to be Jesus on earth. This is untrue. The pope is the leader of the Church on earth, and helps to teach, bring non-Christians to the faith, and communicate with other Christian denominations [1]. It is believed by Catholics that Christ entrusted Peter and his followers with this task [1]. Whether or not this is correct is irrelevant to the resolution of this debate, as all Christian denominations have differing theological teachings, for there would be no different denominations without disagreement.

3) This proves nothing other than that my opponent does not care for Catholics.

4) This argument bases itself on a misunderstanding of Catholicism. My opponent seems to think that Catholics worship the pope, or something along those lines. My opponent continually asserts that Catholicism is not Christian because he doesn't believe in some of its theological tenets. My opponent has communicated his beliefs quite firmly, and I applaud him on that. Unfortunately, these beliefs have little to do with the debate at hand.

Conclusion
My opponent has offered little in the way of valid proof that Catholicism is not a Christian religion. He has dropped all of my previous arguments, and they stand unrefuted. Catholics retain the same basic, core beliefs as all other Christians, and Catholicism remains the original sect of Christianity, from which all others separated. I thank my opponent for his arguments, and look forward to the next round.

Sources
[1]http://www.stjameshopewell.org...
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Catholicism is a religion of good works. "Christian"is not a religion of good works, no matter how much it uses Biblical terminology. The core beliefs of Catholicism are contrary to the Bible. The Bible says we can know (that's not hope or feel like maybe it's true) that we have (not will have, but have.......now) eternal life (1John 5:13). If you do not know right now that you have eternal life and your sins are forgiven and heaven is your home, and you are bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ, you are not a christian no matter how much you claim to have the same core beliefs as all christians do. The devil has the same core beliefs, the devil knows Jesus is God, the devil knows He died for our sins and rose from the dead. The devil inspires the Pope to enslave people in a religion that can never get them to heaven.


There's really not much to argue about. Catholicism is a lot of darkened mysteries thet belong in the dark where they came from.
Debate Round No. 3
Phoenix61397

Pro

I thank my opponent for his final rebuttal. I remind him that he must type only "pass" next round in order to keep with the debate's code of conduct.

1) My opponent seems to be arguing that if one does good works, they cannot be a Christian. In addition, he asserts that:
"'Christian' is not a religion of good works, no matter how much it uses Biblical terminology." Firstly,"Christian" is not a religion, but a description of one who follows Christianity. Christianity is no longer itself a singular religion but a belief that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Messiah promised by the Jewish Old Testament and an attempt to follow His teachings, held by a variety of different denominations, each with differing theological views. No matter how often one attempts to pass their beliefs off as the "one true path" of Christianity, it will remain a "No True Scotsman" argument. My opponent continually asserts that his Biblical interpretation is correct, and anyone who denies it is not Christian. He asserts that Catholics believe things contrary to the Bible. This is rather ironic considering my opponent completely ignores four Bible passages presented earlier offering support for the "good works" philosophy that my opponent completely denies. As for my opponent's statements about the devil "inspiring the pope to enslave people", I am not quite sure how leading people to Christ would be in accordance with Satan's plan.

2) My opponent gives one last insult to Catholics at the end here.

Conclusion
As I hope voters can see, my opponent has ignored almost all of my arguments in favor of a continual "No True Scotsman" argument. His entire argument has been a fallacy, and my arguments have stood unrefuted throughout the debate. Vote pro. I thank my opponent for his participation in the debate, and I hope that he can at least come to respect Catholic views following this debate.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

The truth should not be taken as an insult. Catholics are generally wonderful, warmhearted people and make great Christians if they get saved.
Debate Round No. 4
26 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Phoenix61397 3 years ago
Phoenix61397
I appreciate the compliment about Catholics, LmGiG.
Posted by Mr.Lincoln 3 years ago
Mr.Lincoln
Hmmm
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
test
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
test
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
test
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
test
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
test
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Every branch of Christianty is grafted into the vine. Jesus is the vine, I am part of His branches. His Spirit is the life of the vine and the branches. Only an act of God can graft you into His vine. Nothing any priest, pope, or yourself can do will make that happen, no list of pennances or performance of sacraments can make that happen. Once it happens, it's done forever and you are God's property forever. Catholics make great Christians if they get grafted by God into the vine of Jesus Christ.
Posted by Phoenix61397 3 years ago
Phoenix61397
What branch of Christianity are you? I can't quite tell from your beliefs.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
I know the Author of the Bible. I do not fully understand everything in His Word, but I know enough to know my sins are forgiven and I am going to heaven. I know Jesus Christ lives in me and He is my life and I have eternal life in Him. It's not hard to understand most of God's Word when you know the author.
The Bible is His love letter to mankind, He wants us to know Him through His Word and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life. If we continue in His Word, we are His disciples indeed and shall know the truth and the truth will make us free. The Catholic Church enslaves its subjects.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Seeginomikata 3 years ago
Seeginomikata
Phoenix61397LifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Logic and direct quotes that contradict con statements are the reason why pro wins. Con can't win justby saying "they have lightly different practices, therefore do not count as Christians", despite the fact that their practices are the very fist that could be described as Christian in history.