The Instigator
Paleophyte
Pro (for)
Winning
16 Points
The Contender
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Catholics are Christians

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Paleophyte
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/5/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 502 times Debate No: 67870
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (4)

 

Paleophyte

Pro

Christian is defined as:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 2 reads:

423 We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, born a Jew of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He 'came from God',4 'descended from heaven',5 and 'came in the flesh'.6 For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . and from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.'7

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9
"To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"10

425 The transmission of the Christian faith consists primarily in proclaiming Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in him. From the beginning, the first disciples burned with the desire to proclaim Christ: "We cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."11 It and they invite people of every era to enter into the joy of their communion with Christ:

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life - the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us - that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. and we are writing this that our joy may be complete.12

At the heart of catechesis: Christ

Emphasis mine.

Source: Homepage of The Holy See (http://www.vatican.va...)

These facts demonstrate that Catholics are Christians and any contentions to the contrary are without basis in scripture, fact or reason.

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Oh boy, another Catholic who insists that the dictionary defines being a Christian rather than the Bible. Catholics are dictionary Christians maybe, Bible Christians....certainly not.

1 John 5:13 says : "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God". Catholicism forbids a person from claiming to "know" they have eternal life. The Bible says a Christian can know they have eternal life. I know I have eternal life and the Pope can't deny me of it and no priest can take it away from me. If you can't say that you know for sure that all of your sins are forgiven, past, present, and future, and you know without doubt that heaven is your home, you have eternal life, and you will immediately be present with the Lord Jesus Christ in heaven the moment your body is expired, then you are not a Christian. You may fit the dictionary definition of Christian, but the Bible is what defines being a Christian. The Pope is not the Bible. There is no hope in the Pople. Mary is an idol of Catholicism. Catholicism is a religion full of idols. Catholics re Catholiics and not Christians, I don't care what the dictionary says. The Bible is the Word of God. The Pope can use the dictionary as toilet paper. Mary was a sinner the same as the Pope and the same as Catholic priests and nuns.
According to the dictionary definition, Muslims are Christians because they claim to believe in and follow Jesus as do Mormons and Jehovah'e Witnesses. Sorry....you can't be a Christian if you are not born again. If you are born again you are a child of God and you don't need the Pope's approval or instruction on how to earn heaven becasue it is given to you as a joint-heir of eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord. I said the Lord, not our Lord, because Jesus is not the Lord in Catholicism even though they might call Him Lord. In Catholicism, Jesus is a whimp who has to do whatever mommy Mary tells Him to do. The Queen of Heaven who the Catholic Church claims is Mary is nothing but the same old Queen of Heaven false God of the old testament who God was agaisnt and for whom God punished the children of Israel for looking to her.

Catholics make great Christians if they get saved. A dictionary Christian is not a Bible Christian. If you are not a Bbile Christian, you are a pretend Christian. If your hope is in the Pope, Mary, the Catholic church, any set of rules to follow for good behaviour to earn brownie points from the Pope so he can try to get you out of purgatory and into heaven faster, you are hoping in idols that can't save you from Hell.

I totally reject the dictionary definition of "Christian" If my opponent cannot say the Bible is more authoritative than the dictionary on the meaning of Christian, then I am done with this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Paleophyte

Pro

Stripped of vulgarity and petty insults, Con's argument reduces to a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Con insists on using Scripture as an authority rather than standard definitions. OK.

As sole support for rejection of standard definitions of Christianity, Con cites 1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. The Catechism, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 12 is entitled "I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING" refuting Con's assertion. (http://www.vatican.va...)

Con insists that "the Bible is what defines being a Christian."

- John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

- Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

- Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I see no conflict between the initial definition and these biblical definitions and thus no reason to change that definition. Kindly present a case demonstrating why another definition might be more appropriate.

Con asserts that, "If you can't say that you know for sure that all of your sins are forgiven......then you are not a Christian."

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Much to my astonishment Con has masterfully argued that Catholics are Christian and that he is deceived.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

If you do not know that your sins are forgiven now, past, present, and future, fully paid for by the blood of jesus Christ with no need of anything else to secure your pardon from Hell......

If you do not know you are going to heaven the moment your body expires with no doubt and no need of approval from any earthly priest or Pope......

If you do not know you are saved now and are never in danger of losing your home in heaven......

If you do not know for sure that heaven is your home now and you will be there the moment you die.......

You are not a Christian

You can be a Catholic and hope you are going to heaven
You can be a Catholic and hope you will be forgiven
You can be a Catholic and hope you will be saved

Hoping in something you are not sure of is not knowing, it is wishful thinking.

You are not a Christian if you do not know for sure this very moment that you are saved from Hell, your sins are forgiven now and forever, past present, and future, and heaven is your home which is gauranteed by God himself with no need of permission or approval of the Pope...........

The devil believes in Jesus. Is the devil a Christian like the Pope?

Catholicism is idolatry, hoping in ones own good works in combination of using many idols such as Mary the Queen of Heaven. Mary of Catholicism is actually the idol from the Book of Jeremiah: The phrase "the queen of heaven" appears in the Bible twice, both times in the book of Jeremiah. The first incident is in connection with the things the Israelites were doing that provoked the Lord to anger. Entire families were involved in idolatry. The children gathered wood, and the men used it to build altars to worship false gods. The women were engaged in kneading dough and baking cakes of bread for the "Queen of Heaven" (Jeremiah 7:18). This title referred to Ishtar, an Assyrian and Babylonian goddess also called Ashtoreth and Astarte by various other groups. She was thought to be the wife of the false god Baal, also known as Molech. The motivation of women to worship Ashtoreth stemmed from her reputation as a fertility goddess, and, as the bearing of children was greatly desired among women of that era, worship of this "queen of heaven" was rampant among pagan civilizations. Sadly, it became popular among the Israelites as well.

This is the same Queen of Heaven now held in Cathlicism as symbolic of Christianity. God is against the Queen of Heaven. Mary is not the true Queen of Heaven while the idol Queen of Heaven in jeremiah was a false Mary. It's the same Queen of Heaven, only disguised and abusing Christian terminology.

Catholics are idol worshippers hoping to gain eternal life by their own efforts, unlike Christians who pray only to God as their heavenly Father knowing their sins are forgiven and they are saved from Hell simply because God says so.
Debate Round No. 2
Paleophyte

Pro

Con spends fully half of Round 2 reiterating a point defeated in Round 1. Con continues to insist on his own special definition of Christian despite dictionary definitions and scripture cited above. I will offer just one last line of Scripture refuting Con's position yet again.

Matthew 10:32 Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.

Con asks, "The devil believes in Jesus. Is the devil a Christian like the Pope?" This is incorrect. The devil does not believe in Jesus, he knows of Jesus (Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13). Con is conflating mortal belief and worship of Christ with the devil's certain knowledge and opposition of Christ. These are obviously different. The devil hath no faith.

Con claims "Catholicism is idolatry", which is in direct contradiction to the sections of the Catechism which uphold the Ten Commandments [1,2].

Con confuses the Virgin Mary with Asarte/Asherah/Anath mentioned in Jeremiah 7:18 and Jeremiah 44:15-18 due to the term "Queen of Heaven". OT references to "Queen of Heaven" would have been in Hebrew or Aramaic [3]. By contrast, the Virgin Mary was declared "Regina Caelorum" by the Coucil of Ephesus in 431 AD [4]. The two references are not merely different words but are in entirely different languages. This is a term of respect that Catholics, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox Christians use to refer to the Mother of Christ. Sadly, Con seems incapable of respect for the woman who gave birth to his Savior.

Con accuses Catholics of worshipping Mary. This is simply false. Catholics hold the saints in esteem, Mary first amongst them. There is a fundamental difference between the worship of the Lord God and the praise given to mortal men and women for exceptional deeds.

Conclusion: Definitions of "Christian" based on both common usage and scripture demonstrate that Catholics are Christians. Con's ongoing attempts to use alternate definitions have been refuted by scripture and are in direct contradiction with the Catechism. Cons further slanders have been refuted and are pointless even if true as they have no bearing on the religion of any individual and any possible transgressions would be forgiven by the Grace of God.

References:

[1] Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 3, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, III
http://www.vatican.va...

[2] Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 3, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, IV
http://www.vatican.va...

[3] Miller, PD (2000) The Religion of Ancient Israel (pp 61-62) ISBN: 978-0664221454

[4] Ad Caeli Reginam: Encyclical of Pope Pius XII on Proclaiming the Queenship of Mary
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

The Catholic Church is not God. Just because the Cathollc church declares something does not make it true. If you say "Hail Mary" you are praying to Mary. Prayer is to be to God alone, not to any "Mother of God" idol, not to any wafer-god idol, not to any Pope, not to any saint. Prayer is a form of worship and God is the only one who is supposed to be worshipped, prayed to, or asked for anything in prayer. Catholicism believes in Jesus Christ no more than the devil believes in Jesus Christ. It is not Christian, it is idolatry and it is inspired by the devil. Catholicism is nothing but a politically organized church established by Constantine in an effort to control Christianity as a means of trying to hold together the crumbling Roman Empire. Catholicism is not Christian, and all who practice it's idolatries are not Christians no matter what they say about Jesus Christ.

Christians are disciples of Jesus Christ. Jesus said if we continue in His word, we would know the truth and the truth would make us free. Catholicism enslaves people by telling them to do this and do that and worship this idol or pray to that one, or pay for this or pay for that and do this pennance and do this act of charity and on and on and on with no end and no way of being sure you have done enough to secure your place in heaven so you can be free in eternal life.

We can be free and have eternal life NOW if we are Jesus's diciples. If we do not believe Jesus and take Him at His Word and enjoy the freedom of knowing we have eternal life based on the fact that He paid for our sins with His own blood and rose from the grave to justify all who believe on Him. If you are not justified through faith in His blood, there never is and never will be enough to justify you because you are a sinner and the Pope can't change that, and Mary can't help. Mary was a sinner the same as you who deserved to die for her sins the same as the Pope.

The Catholic Church is Pagan Idolatry disguise as Christian.

Catholics are Catholics
Christians are Christians
Catholics are not Christians any more than Pagans are Christians.

Calling yourself a Christian does not make you a Christian. A Christian has eternal life NOW, not tomorrow after they say enough Hail Marys or after they do enough acts of charity or pennance and pay enough money to the Poopee. Catholicim stinks of religious slavery, and robs people of more than their money......it propels them into Hell believing they are justified by their own goodness. We are all sinners and nothing can justfy us if God Himself is not our justification. There is no hope in the Pooppe
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by platoscaveman 1 year ago
platoscaveman
I think the argument can be made that Catholics are in fact the only Christians, as protestants don't follow everything Christ taught, they only follow part. So in truth:
Catholic=Christian
Christian=Catholic
Protestant=heretic.
Posted by GarretKadeDupre 1 year ago
GarretKadeDupre
This was an amusing defeat of a Protestant by an Atheist. I enjoyed Pro's witty remarks. Con's incoherency reflects the inherent incoherency of Protestantism.
Posted by Codedlogic 1 year ago
Codedlogic
"Christian" is a self appointed label for someone who follows Christ. Beyond that, there are no agreed metrics for determining who is a "True" Christian and who is not.
Posted by acolevfx 1 year ago
acolevfx
Catholics are the first Christians. Before there were any other denominations or reformations it was just Christianity. It begin to split from there. That is just history.
Posted by ReformedPresbyterian72598 1 year ago
ReformedPresbyterian72598
To be precise, if they believe in the gospel and something else they believe is gospel then it is no longer gospel and they cannot be Christians.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 1 year ago
Ragnar
PaleophyteLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: In R1 con conceded pro was right in the English language, decided to reject the English language for not being biblical enough, what more is there to say?
Vote Placed by Codedlogic 1 year ago
Codedlogic
PaleophyteLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro used established definitions and metrics for determining Catholics are Christians. Con tried to redefine the label "Christian" with personal theology but Pro effectively pointed out the No True Scottsman Fallacy.
Vote Placed by danhep 1 year ago
danhep
PaleophyteLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Although the resolution was pretty much true for pro... Pro won because he clearly advocated while Con just talked about idolllatry
Vote Placed by warren42 1 year ago
warren42
PaleophyteLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct goes Pro, due to Con's repeated insults of Catholicism. Arguments also go Pro, because Con has completely inarticulate arguments, namely: 1. Eternal life doesn't mean eternal salvation. You can live eternally in hell. 2. Catholics do not pray to Mary, or any saint. They pray through the saint. They essentially have the saint lobby on behalf of the person praying. 3. By your definition of Christian, most Christian religions are not Christian. Additionally, most of the followers of the remaining religions would not be Christians, as most are not 100% certain of their faith. In fact, if you are 100% certain in your faith, you either had better be a clergymen or you are just blindly accepting what you are told. Pro did not win this debate, Con lost it.