The Instigator
hutch976
Pro (for)
The Contender
Rjupudi18
Con (against)

Catholics are correct when it comes to the Virgin Mary

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 3/6/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 616 times Debate No: 100600
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (44)
Votes (0)

 

hutch976

Pro

Please note, that this debate is intended to be within the context of Christianity. Opponents will argue for or against Mary (Wife Joseph and Mother of Jesus as found in Christian teachings, traditions, and sacred scripture) having a high importance in the belief system.

I am not requiring one to be Christian, or even religious. If you do take up the "con" position, please note I will be using proof texts, arguments, syllogisms, historical arguments, etc. that come from Christian (especially Catholic) sources. We are pretty much going to have to agree that the Christian worldview is correct and true, or else we will just be talking at each other....or the debate will spill over into other topics (e.g. Does God exist? Is Jesus God? and so on).

I only make that disclaimer, because I've had experiences on this site where someone will just hijack the debate into a completely different topic. But hey, can't stop you from doing what you're doing to do. This is simply a request.

4 Rounds. My position: The Catholic Church teaches (and correctly so) that Mary is:

1. The Mother of the second person in the Holy Trinity
2. Mediatrix and co-redemptor with Christ
3. Worthy or Christian veneration

Con may take Round 1 to start their argument, or simply accept. Shooter's preference.

Thanks, and good luck.
Rjupudi18

Con

I thank Pro for instigating this debate. I hope to present my case as to why I believe the Catholic Church DOES NOT accurately represent Mary as written in the Holy Scriptures. I hope this debate will be a benefit to both of us as well as the viewers.

I will begin by rebutting the 3 points made by Pro:
1. "The Mother of the second person in the Holy Trinity"
This is only partially true. Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ while He was on 🌏. She was His earthly mother and took care of Jesus like any mother would. However, Jesus has existed though eternity and being that He is God, we know God has no mother. Therefore, Mary is the mother of the human side of Jesus while He was on earth and Joseph is His father but not His divine nature. But Scripture tells us they only acted as His earthy parents but His true Father was God. When Jesus was "lost" and His parents were looking for Him, He rebuked them by asking if they didn't know He had to be in His Father's house (Luke 2:49).
http://biblehub.com...

2. "Mediatrix and co-redeemer with Christ"
Yet another Catholic invention. Nowhere in the Holy Bible do we ever read that Mary can save people or redeem them from sin. Luke 1:46-47 reads, "46 And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God MY SAVIOR" Mary proclaims God is her Savior. How can we say Mary can save people when she herself needs a saviour? https://www.biblegateway.com...
Also, Scripture tells us that there is only mediation between us and God. "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).
https://www.biblegateway.com...
The Bible is very clear that Christ alone is our mediator and redeemer.

3. I agree. We should respect Mary as a saint and servant of God. We should also respect Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist and Paul and all the other prophets and apostles. There is no need for special treatment for Mary. I respect Mary as I respect all the other patriarchs of the Bible but as a Christian, I would deem it blasphemy to equate her with Christ. As a Bible-believing Christian, I think there is nothing wrong with reverence for saints but only One Being is worthy of praise and worship. That is God our Lord and Saviour.

Good luck to Pro for the next round.
Debate Round No. 1
hutch976

Pro

Mary is the Mother of God:

My opponent is actually advocating the position of a 5th century heresy known as "Nestorianism". He claims that Mary was merely the mother of Christ"s "human" nature. This is to deny the person of Jesus Christ, a historical person who walked the Earth, as being both fully human and fully divine. The claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ asserts the separation of Christ"s human nature from his divine nature. This creates two separate and distinct persons. One of those persons being divine and the other human. This is a Christological heresy.

In fact, John Calvin and Martin Luther both supported the divine Maternity of Mary. Denying that Mary is the mother of Jesus (who was fully a human person and fully God), places doubts and theological problems on Jesus" divinity, and therefore the whole concept of Christianity.

Mary IS the Mother of God. She was the Mother of Jesus when He was conceived in her womb, when He was carried and nurtured in her womb, and she was the mother of Jesus throughout his whole life on earth. She was given the title of "Blessed", "Highly Favored", and it is through her Fiat (her, "Let It be done unto me according to your will), her obedience and willingness to accept this"that we have salvation in this world, through her Son Jesus Christ, who is God! (Except according to my opponent, He is not God whenever it is convenient).

Here is the big point my opponent is missing in his logic:
Mary is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person"Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, John 1:14). A woman is someone"s mother if she carried the person in her womb, or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary did both of these; she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied ALL genetic material for his earthly body. Joseph did not.
That last point quickly defeats my opponents citation of Jesus being lost in the temple and being in his Father"s house. For God truly was Jesus" father, and Joseph truly was not. Additionally, Jesus can obtain his lineage to the House of David through Mary and not Joseph. Mary is Christ"s mother, the logical syllogism that follows is that she is also the Mother of God:

Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Mary is the Mother of God

I would love for my opponent to refute that. Please, tell us all at what point on Earth that Jesus was not God and Mary was not His mother? Even in the womb, Elizabeth refers to Mary as "the mother of my LORD" (Luke 1:43). Elizabeth is recognizing that the person inside Mary"s womb is GOD.

One cannot escape this logical syllogism. Only recently have Protestants and Fundamentalists refuted this; for as mentioned earlier even Luther and Calvin supported her divine maternity. The reason for this divergence is because Protestantism brought on thousands of different interpretations of Scripture and Doctrine, which continues to increase today. This goes against Christ establishing ONE Church (and not giving His disciples a Bible, which came hundreds of years later".by the Bishops of the Catholic Church) and against the Holy Spirit through Paul urging that "there be no divisions among you" (1 COR 1:10). Apostolic Tradition and Teaching authority (see Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) quells divisions coming from endless "infallible" interpretations of Scripture that Protestants have. But this is not a debate about Sola Scriptura and Church authority, so moving on.

This is not new, by the way, and I suggest my opponent read more carefully into his Christian heritage. This is not only in reference to the position of the early Protestant Reformers, but also of our early Church Fathers. Regarding the Nestorian heresy, even as early as 189 AD we have quotes from the early Christians regarding Mary"s divine maternity:

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" " St. Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 5:19:1)

And finally from the Early Fathers I will cite Cyril of Alexandria:R32;R32;

"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt"1 [A.D. 427])."R32;R32;"This expression, however, "the Word was made flesh" [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin "the Mother of God," not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh" (First Letter to Nestorius"[A.D. 430])."R32;R32;"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius"[A.D. 430])."R32;R32;"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema"

(The majority of this point was derived from the following website, in addition to the citations of the Early Church father"s quotations: https://www.catholic.com...)

Here is a quick quote from Luther:

On the newborn Jesus: "They must have marveled that this Child was the Son of God. He was also a real human being. Those who say that Mary was not a real mother lose all the joy. He was a true Baby, with flesh, blood, hands and legs. He slept, cried, and did everything else that a baby does only without sin."
^http://www.christianitytoday.com...

Additional Citations and Suggested Reading for this argument:

http://www.newadvent.org... - For more on the Nestorian Heresy

Second Point:

First of all, the "Trinity" is "an invention" of the Catholic Church, either. It is not explicitly mentioned nor explicitly talked about in Scripture. We have the doctrine of the Trinity thanks to Christ's Church he established, and this doctrine was cemented before there even was a Bible. Do you want to deny the Trinity? Or would you rather thank Catholic Theologians and Bishops for acting on the Holy Spirit's will and guidance?

In short (due to character limit), Mary brought Christ into the world through her "Fiat" (her willingness and obedience, "Let it be done unto me according to your will"). She is not a rival to Christ, but one of the major ways in which God chooses to administer His graces into the world. Just like how you can preach the Gospel and "save someone" and by virtue "save yourself" (1 COR 9:22, for example). Are we neglecting Christ by being a channel for His peace and grace? No. It does not logically follow.

Third point:

Jesus commands us to keep all the commandments (Matthew 19:17, John 14:15), and the Fourth Commandment is to Honor Your Mother and Your Father (Exodus 20). Jesus is our brother (Hebrews 2:11), and Mary is His Mother. Therefore, Mary is our Spiritual Mother.
You admit she is a saint (which means she is in heaven). How do you know this, it is not in Scripture? Of course that is rhetorical. I know how you know it brother. You know it in your heart. Scripture says that "all generations shall call {her} blessed!".
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
44 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 10 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
This after all IS a Religion Section, God resides here. God states in His word,

Matthew 18:20-22
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

Despite the topics of debates, and despite the levels of importance OF debate, the simple FACT is that all believers IN Christ HAVE RECEIVED salvation by His blood. We ask forgiveness if we at times fail in our task to represent God, as humble servants, called by His name, but that is OUR failing not His. I bear witness as do all believers in Christ that, God is ALIVE and well, And at work in the Daily Lives of His people. I bear witness that as God exists, so to does the place called Hell, and the Lake of Fire, which IS THE SECOND DEATH. There is no fence to straddle, you belong to God or to the World, the flesh and the devil.
SEEK God, while He may yet be found! There IS coming a time where the door WILL CLOSE, it is my prayer you not be found wanting.

I implore you to remember that;
Your eternity is only a heartbeat away!
- A car crash
- A stray bullet
- An unexpected stroke
- You have an appointment and you are going to die on time!
- No accidents in Gods kingdom
- Where will you find yourself?
- How sure are you?
- What is the basis of your conviction?

Ezekiel 3
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

You have been so warned. Seek Him while you are still able..... sup to you
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 10 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Forgot this one;

Isaiah 42:8
"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Deuteronomy 6:13
You shall fear the LORD your God, and serve him, and shall swear by his name

Deuteronomy 28:58
"If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God,

Psalm 66:2
Sing the glory of His name; Make His praise glorious
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 10 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
scriptures determine lies, not men;

4 Rounds. hutch976 position: The Catholic Church teaches (and correctly so) that Mary is:
1. The Mother of the second person in the Holy Trinity.
2. Mediatrix and co-redemptor with Christ
3. Worthy or Christian veneration

PROOF BY SCRIPTURE ALONE;
2. Mediatrix and co-redemptor with Christ (heresy)FALSE

Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me
Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

This Scripture openly states and puts to rest this fallacy (Mary) HAS NO redemption qualities.
TO DENY THIS IS HERESY. Only Christ saves. Heresy because it is suggestive of some form of saving grace imputed to Mary a particular failing of the Catholic Church.

3. Worthy or Christian veneration FALSE (Sin of Idolatry)
Exodus 20:4
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Obvious violation no graven images of things in heaven or on earth- CERTAINLY never burn incense to them?

2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
Referred to as Pagan practices!

People there IS the word of God, no matter what mankind believes NOR thinks can THOSE scriptures be MISINTERPRETED by even the simplest minds, you must consciously choose to "be" deluded! That is on you and no one else!
ven"er"ate - past tense: venerated; past participle: venerated
1. regard with great respect; revere."Mother Teresa is venerated as a saint"
2. synonyms:
3. revere, regard highly, reverence, worship, hallow, hold sacred, exalt, vaunt, adore, honor, respect, esteem

As you can see this IS a failing/sin consistently practiced among Catholics!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 10 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
I have attempted to inform you that I will brook no lies. Preach God ... okay, Preach Catholicism I prove by scripture that you are in violation of direct passages of scripture. It's that simple. You have provided nothing but twisted scripture that everyone can see is false.

Like your crazy insistence that Christ CALLED Abraham father, Christ did no such thing. then you insist that the Apostles Called Abraham father, and they weren't even BORN YET. you did this to deliberately INFER that THIS somehow gives Catholics the right to call Priest Father. Don't even bother to deny it. It's twisting the scriptures and you know it, so please spare me the but I showed you the scripture s to answer my questions. That's a blatant lie. Evaluator s need only read your remarks to see that you attempted to use them falsely. Cause Christ did not call Abraham Father, nor the apostles, you knew this.

Like I said, preach God, you'll hear nothing from me, but if you Lie ... I will show you false by scripture. I am obligated to do that for those who are innocent on the subject.
Posted by hutch976 10 months ago
hutch976
Brother,

I've provided scriptural evidence for literally everything you've asked for. You misrepresent Catholic teachings (example, Priests can have wives in the Catholic Church). You blatantly ignore my biblical proof texts (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17, Exodus 25:18, Matthew 7:21, and others). You blatantly misrepresent my proof texts (Acts 7:2). You conduct a large number of ad hominem attacks, and also non-sequiturs.

I have asked you repeatedly both on this comment section, and via private messaging, to please refrain from getting so off topic. I have WELCOMED you to challenge me to another debate. You have chosen to ignore these requests, as you have chosen to ignore evidence you cannot counter.

I have reported you for harassment, insults, and general misconduct, and put restrictions on our interactions.

Take a break.

Christ's Peace.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 10 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Remember the severe Corinthians letter. Paul stood against them for allowing an evil to remain unchallenged in the Church. Do not PREACH Catholicism, you've no leg to stand on .... preach God or keep quiet! Young and very inexperienced Brother!
Posted by hutch976 10 months ago
hutch976
Good God Man, you can't even read my posts correctly. I never said the Apostles called Abraham father, but the Jewish elders. You're just being ridiculous, uncharitable, and unchristian.

Please stop.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 10 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
It HAS NO INTEGRITY, look if your wanting to promote a denomination, your grossly in error. Your spreading lies upon lies and in violation of scripture. Catholic s are saved, I don't deny that, but they are NOT WALKING in accordance with the Bible. Your not a cult, but your also not correct BECAUSE of your blatant disregard for Gods word.

Convert people to God, I've no comment, attempt to convert them to a Denomination, I'll show you false. It's that simple.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 10 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
REALLY. (GASP)
Then you'll of course provide US with the scripture that SHOWS Jesus saying father too Abraham then?
And you WILL. Provide US. With the Scriptures where the APOSTLES addressed too Abraham and called him father ... also yes? And when you say father your refering to YOUR earthly father?

No, and No, and No. you twist scripture to fit some warped delusion of your own making. Christ never called Abraham Father to Abraham, He was above Abraham, and the Apostles themselves, never once addressed Abraham at all, they were descriptive in nature only, not intended for you to warp them into some denomination.

Keep coming let us see how many more scriptures your twisting.
Posted by hutch976 10 months ago
hutch976
I have asked you in a private message to carry this on between us elsewhere. This is distracting from the original debate, and damaging to its integrity.

I'd ask you to please, carry this conversation on with me via private messaging so we can all stay on point for this specific debate. I am happy to accept your challenges to debates you set-up on specific points.

But please stop going all over the place on here.
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