The Instigator
Pro (for)
6 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
0 Points

Celestia is a terrible ruler

Do you like this debate?NoYes+4
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/24/2014 Category: TV
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,611 times Debate No: 57076
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (47)
Votes (3)




Princess Celestia from MLP:FIM

This debate should be clear enough in the topic. While it is meant to be a fun, debate about a non-serious topic, it is not a troll debate and actual arguments from the show will be used to rationally defend the resolution.

FULL RESOLUTION: Princess Celestia, from MLP:FIM has shown to be an ineffective leader of Equestria

The BOP will be on me to show that she has been an ineffective leader.

The heart of the debate should be clear, but if anyone has any questions regarding what that is, please ask in the comments. Any attempts to bypass the heart of the debate with semantics or other underhanded or manipulative tactics should be treated as forfeits.

Thank you.



I accept.

I'm waiting for your argument!
Debate Round No. 1


I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate. Let us jump right into the debate. Also, spoilers, for those that have not seen the end of season 4.

== Failures to maintain Equstria’s sovereignty ==

First, we must establish a timeline to get some perspective. This can be difficult, since the show was not originally designed to be that deep (it is for little kids after all). However, in S4E1 (season 4, episode 1), Celestia states that this will be the first Summer Sun Celebration with Luna back. That indicates that the first 3 seasons all take place in one year. Others one Reddit have speculated that it was actually two years (this would allow the episodes to be able to be placed in a proper timeline) and that while Luna was freed from being Nightmare Moon, she wasn’t present at the last one [1]. Either way, that shows us that the entire four seasons take place over only two or three years.

So let us look at all the times that Celestia has lost control. Obviously we start with S1E1 [2], when Nightmare Moon comes back and Celestia disappears (either by being captured or just hiding). It is again lost in S2E1 [3], when Discord successfully neutralizes the Elements of Harmony. Once again we find her out in S2E26 [4] when Queen Chrysalis defeats Celestia. In S4E1 [5], Celestia is captured by the evil vines that Discord had sowed millennia ago. And finally, in S4E26 [6], Celestia willingly gave up her power so that it would not be taken.

We see five cases in only a few years where Celestia has lost control and in all times, it was someone else, not her, that managed to restore the power (four times it was Twilight, and once it was Cadance). With the inability to maintain power, this makes her an ineffective ruler and that others would do better in her place.

== Poor choices that almost cost everyone their lives ==

Let’s stop and look at only the most egregious examples that we can find in S4E25 and S4E26 [6]. There are several things that just compile upon each other here, but let’s go in chronological order through the episodes.

First, Celestia receives a vison that Tirek has escaped. She receives this vision and fully believes it (she didn’t just dismiss it as a dream) when Tirek was still weak. This gives her a huge advantage, she knows who the adversary is, what his powers are, and how to track him down (she correctly understands that Discord is able to track him down with ease). However, she sends Discord by himself, rather than going with him. There is no reason to not go with him at all. She knows that he is only recently reformed and still shows to be a problem (we can see from S4E2 and S4E11 that he still hides the truth, manipulates others, and puts ponies in danger). One can argue that there is the fear that he will take her power, however, it is shown later in the episode that his power absorbing spell can be dodged (Twilight does this in their fight, and he has to resort to making her give it up, rather than just taking it). She could have easily gone with Discord to let him track Tirek down and she could have easily defeated him herself. She even says (after Discord turns) that they are not able to defeat Tirek BECAUSE Discord is with him. Which is to imply that they could have before.

However, let’s move past this. After Discord betrays everyone and teams up with Tirek, Celestia offers nothing to her subjects. No plans to protect them, or get them to safety. No evacuations, or coordinated counter offensives. She does absolutely nothing for her subects. Her only plan is hide the Alacorn magic so that Tirek cannot take it. Though, of course, this becomes a moot point, because even if he doesn’t have the Alacorn magic, the Princesses won’t have it either, so Tirek will still be the most powerful being in the land and able to rule over everything. Celestia’s plan literally does nothing to help anyone.

Moving on again, the reasoning that Celestia gave for transferring all the power to Twilight does not make any sense. She says it is because Tirek won’t know that there is a forth Alicorn so she can go into hiding. However, this is faulty on two levels. First, they are standing in a room that has a window mural of Twilight becoming an Alicorn, which takes Tirek all but 15 seconds to find after sending the other Alicorns to Tartarus. Second, they know that Discord is with Tirek and he is fully aware of Twilight and where she lives as well as her friends as a weakness (which he fully gives to Tirek).

Lastly, we see that with all the Alicorn magic, Twilight is on equal grounds with Tirek (after Tirek absorbed Discord’s magic). This means that Twilight would have been stronger than Tirek had she faced him before he absorbed Discord’s magic (like when he showed up at the castle by himself). It would have been far more wise to transfer all the Alicorn magic to Celestia or Luna, as they have millennia of combat experience and they could have easily defeated Tirek when he walked in.

Celestia had a number of easy options to defeat Tirek, however she completely failed as a leader to do them to protect her subjects and citizens. Also, she's a bit of a bitch.









Even though my opponent states the BoP is on her, I will still provide evidence of an effective leader before getting into the rebuttals.
1. No pony ever rebells.
Okay, so Celestia failed 5 freaking times to keep her empire in good shape, as my opponent claims, yet no pony rebells? This obviously shows that they either love Celestia too much or Celestia looks benevolent but secretly rules with an iron fist. As far as we are concerned, it is more than likely the former: the ponies love Celestia too much. The evidence is that "she watches with a smile on her face when Pinkie Pie devours one of the her cupcakes, while Mrs. Cake gasps and drags Pinkie away." [1] Even if I believe that Celestia has not managed to maintain Equestria's sovereignty, there still remains proof that the ponies love her too much to rebell, and her weird way of ruling remains effective since nobody rebelled.

2. The Evidence that Those Villains Were Defeated Before....and Had Been Defeated By the End of an Episode.
Celestia may have struggled to prevent those villains from beating her down, but she had actually been successful before. Tirek? His brother told Celestia and she did the rest of the work. [2] Discord? He got sealed in stone. [3] Nightmare moon? She was successfully banished to the moon. [4]
Furthermore, even with her weird ways, Twilight was able to defeat those villains as they returned, and by the end of season 4, no villains rule Equestria. Now, you may say "TWILIGHT DID IT, NOT CELESTIA!" I must remind you that we are talking about whether or not Celestia is an effective ruler, NOT whether or not she has an effective army.
Here, let me compare this scenery to Obama.
Let us assume that some how, Obama was kidnapped, and one of his secret agents managed to single-handedly capture the one who kidnapped Obama, and the kidnapper was arrested. In this case, is Obama a terrible ruler? No, he just happens to have terrible security. You need to prove that these people managing to overcome Celestia proves her to be a terrible ruler. If Obama's army was overcome by, say, Russia's army, that doesn't prove Obama a terrible ruler! Just because Obama's army is bad does not mean he is a bad ruler!!

3. Tirek Stuff.
Obviously Celestia had not met the real, ultra-sly Tirek, but rather, the power-hungry, force-using Tirek. Who was to know there was someone as sly as Discord?? There is nothing to suggest Tirek even thought about manipulating Celestia. As shown in source [5], even Rainbow Dash, the element of loyalty, had her element used against her. Celestia could not possibly predict this; as far as she was concerned, Discord was an insane greedy guy who randomly ate some snacks when he was about to die. And again, with Tirek, the villain could have been acting like just a power-hungry antagonist who never revealed his slyness and cleverness. Celestia's plan with Discord would have worked had not Tirek been so sly and manipulative. In addition, Celestia practically put a test to Discord; she belives that he has it in him to change, and at first he did--he immediately jumped to his job and arrested Tirek. It was only because of Tirek's incredible persuasion "speech" did Discord join his ranks.
Again, compare this to Obama. If Obama does not realize there is a traitor within his ranks, is he a bad or an ineffective ruler?? Not necessarily. It could just mean Obama is bad at spotting traitors, or that traitor is really really good at hiding/acting.
And finally, the battle between Celestia and Tirek--it would not be easy to defeat Tirek, since he had absorbed so much power. Furthermore, even Twilight struggled to not get her power obtained by Tirek.
And when last comes to last, we know what Tirek goes with--strategical manipulative slyness. Why, if Tirek put the mane six in danger, Celestia would know even if they defeated Tirek, Discord would easily walk around and rule the whole place easily, since, there will be no elements of harmony to defeat him, in addition, if they tried their old way, Discord could predict this, and hide away the elements easily, teleporting them to a place that could never be reached.
If Discord can eat paper, [5] then he can definitely eat the elements of harmony. :P
Too bad he didn't think of that in the first place.

In conclusion I have shown Celestia to be an effective ruler and rebutted my opponent's arguments.

[5] The Youtube Video near the top about Discord eating paper ;
Debate Round No. 2


I thank my opponent for his quick response and apologize that I am not able to be as quick in kind. But here it is. I will first begin by addressing my opponent’s arguments, then defending my own.

== Con’s Case ==

1) No Pony every rebels

It is true that no pony ever rebels (well, accept Luna, but that was 1,000 years ago, so that’s a pretty good streak), and this does show that the ponies love Celestia very much. However, we cannot mistake being well liked with being effective. There are many times when a good leader must do what is necessary, even if it is not well liked. We can see from our own history that prior to WW2, America was fiercely divided on entering the war or even providing support [1], but now with hindsight, we can see how important it was (we can argue to the degree of its importance with ending the war quicker and halting the control of Stalin, but that is for another debate).

The other points are direct contentions against my points, so I will address them with the defense of my arguments.

== Pro’s Case ==

1) Sovereignty (this goes with my opponent’s #2)

My opponent makes two key points here. First, that Celestia had defeated those villains previously (except for Queen Chrysalis), however, all of those victories were over 1,000 years ago and most (if not all, they do not explain how she and her sister defeated Tirek) required her to have the Elements of Harmony (which she is no longer connected to, as explained in S2E1).

The second point my opponent makes is that it doesn’t matter “who” saves the day as the measure of a leader is not measured by their army. However, this is not entirely true. The primary purpose of a leader is to protect and guide what they are “leading” (in most cases for government and business, “guide” means “grow”) but protecting is a key part of that. Of course, we can excuse the failure to protect if the said leader does not have the resources to do what is needed. For example, the Sioux leaders ultimately failed to protect their tribes, however it was not due to a lack of leadership skills, but to an overwhelming lack of resources to accomplish their goals.

We must look at if Celestia had the tools needed to protect Equstria. The next thing we need to look at is if SHE is the one using the tools correctly to protect Equstria, or if she is using them incorrectly and others are saving her bacon. We can see in S2E25 and S2E26 that Celestia has no real defenses planned other than Shining Armor’s barrier. Despite apparent guards all around the city, not a single guard comes running to her aid, nor attempts to defend the city during the attack (maybe they are rebelling in a form of passive rebellion).

When we see the loss of power five times in just a few years, we can’t help but realize that the issue is with the common denominator, Celestia. We will go further into the main example with Tirek.

2) Tirek

I would first like to address the comparison to Obama being betrayed. This is an interesting comparison, however it is lacking a number of key details. A far more linear comparison would be if rather than killing Bin Laden, we captured him and attempted to reform him under Obama’s direction. Then, in turn, gave him a bunch of our national secrets and asked him to go catch other major terrorists, but sent him alone. Then if he turned and went back to his terrorizing ways and used our secrets against us to destroy America. It would be completely naive to say such a thing was “unpredictable.”

My opponent makes quite an exaggeration by equating Tirek’s “slyness” to that of Discord. Tirek showed almost no slyness at all. When he was caught, he merely offered Discord to rule alongside with him and “turn the world upside down.” There was nothing particularly clever about what Tirek did, only the utter lack of shock that it worked of Discord. My opponent states that “Celestia practically put a test to Discord.” This would be the most shocking display of poor leadership. She is intentionally putting the safety of the entire nation (or even world) onto someone’s shoulders as a “test.” What does this mean to every pony under her watch? It means, that their lives are meaningless to her and can be gambled away with tests for others

My opponent continues saying that even if Tirek was defeated, Discord could still take over Equestria. This is theoretically true (though the consolidated Alicorn power is stronger than Discord, so we would ultimately be defeated), however, he could have taken over Equestria at any time in season 4, since the only thing that can stop him is the Elements of Harmony (which is why Celestia did not do anything in S2E1 and S2E2 to fight Discord) and they were given back to the Tree of Harmony in S4E2. Discord brings this up himself (almost as soon as they are gone, as if he planned it that way) but he chooses his friendship with Fluttershy as a better option. There is no reason to believe that with Tirek out of the picture, that Fluttershy could not convince him to turn back to “good” (well, “neutral” at least).

My opponent offers up one last piece of counter, saying that “between Celestia and Tirek- it would not be easy to defeat Tirek, since he had absorbed so much power…even Twilight struggled to not get her power obtained by Tirek.” This is missing on several key points.

Twilight was successfully able to avoid having her power absorbed (until she willingly traded for her friends) and she went toe to toe with Tirek (I’d say, she was even a little ahead, given that he was digging himself out of the rubble after the last attack). The key difference is two things. First, Celestia has unimaginable more combat experience (my opponent does not refute this) and so she would do better than Twilight did. And second (and most importantly), when Tirek attacked Celestia, it was before he absorbed Discord (remember, Discord is the single most powerful being in Equestria [2]), so he was far less powerful when he attempted to confront Celestia. Those two factors make it highly unlikely that our Ponies would lose. Tirek would have just been walking into his own defeat.

Lastly, my opponent makes no comment that Celestia’s plan makes no sense. Her only goal is to hide the Alicorn power so Tirek doesn’t get it (even though there is a giant mural on the wall in the very room she is standing in saying “Hey, look at the new forth Alicorn!” and she knows that Discord has betrayed them and that he is aware of everything about Twilight). But her plan has no end game. It only focuses on keeping the power from Tirek, but let’s say that somehow it works. Twilight successfully hides from Tirek for the rest of her life and he never gets the Alicorn power. How is that a good plan? Equestria is still conquered and ruled by Tirek and all ponies are under his rule. Great plan, Celestia. You have to wonder if she cares at all about any of her subjects at all.

With this, the resolution is affirmed that Celestia has



Please note that any episode references (S_E_ means Season_ Episode_, I should have stated that last round) can be found online by Googling "MLP S_E_" and they are all on Netflix.



1. No Pony Ever Rebells
My point is, if you keep Equestria in check, or at least, if the ponies think so, then they won't rebell. One example is the Mongols. Their power was so strong that they managed to create a time of peace, called the Pax Mongolica, in which practically no crime was throughout the empire and barely any war. [1] And of course, since the Mongols were so powerful, they managed to put down pretty much every rebell against them--and even those rebells were rare, since the Mongols destroyed everyone in their path.

2. Sovereignty
My opponent hints Celestia's ineffectiveness with her statement "Despite apparent guards all around the city, not a single guard comes running to her aid, nor attempts to defend the city during the attack (maybe they are rebelling in a form of passive rebellion)." However, it must be noted that within S2E25, Queen Crystalis was so darn smart the only pony who even dared to think that she was not Princess Cadence was Twilight--who was manipulated by poor "Cadence" in such a way that she actually went to apologize, thinking herself wrong. Nothing suggests that Celestia is as smart as her student, neither does anything suggest that the guards are as smart as Twilight. Furthermore, there is no way to reveal Crystalis unless the villain herself wishes to. By the time she reveals herself, her minions are pretty much already broke through the shield. Now, you may ask "why did Celestia only use Shining Armor's magic barrier? It's shown that it's weak!"
However, you are slightly incorrect.
Cadance's 'Healing Spell' S02E25

Cadance using her magic on Shining Armor apparently to heal his "migraine."

The above picture is from source [2]. It shows that Shining Armor had his love zapped from him as a source of magic for Crystalis. Sure, it doesn't seem to be magic, but how can a poor hypnotized pony keep up a shield barrier? He can't. No hypnotized pony can. Celestia was never expecting any of this to happen, and neither were the guards. If any guard wanted to rush in, they probably couldn't, since Crystalis' army was already invading the city and they had too much problems on their hands. In addition, nothing suggests that some changelings wouldn't be smart enough to act like guard to give the illusion of safety, then strike when the real guards are unsuspecting! The changelings could change into the guards! [3]

2. Tirek
Actually, the Bin Laden example is kind of different than what we have in this show. Discord is actually truly thinks that friendship is awesome--he can go a little bit his way, and the others would still like him. He could play around and have fun, and perhaps later manipulate them bit by bit to follow his master plan! It's genius! On the other hand, Tirek, while seemingly NOT sly, as my opponent may think, he is actually very clever. You can jump to about 13:45 within source [4], and we can tell Tirek makes up an extremely persuasive speech right on the spot, praising Discord and evoking Discord's arrogance. (Source [3] within round 2 can tell you that Discord is very arrogant, and lots of times it is used against himself)
If you don't believe me how sly Tirek is, these are the exact words he said:"I am surprised that someone with your intellect does not see this friendship...a form of imprisonment. Clearly you had to abandon your true nature to stay in their good graces." (From the video)"Oh, please, I've seen this before. But he was always weak minded. You are Discord, you are legend, you cannot fall into the same trap that claimed my brother! Help me to grow strong, and be rewarded with something far greater than friendship: freedom." [4] "Once I have stripped....upside-down....master of chaos himself...reclaim your greatness" (From the video again)
As you can see, Tirek is actually very manipulative, with the bold words highlighted to note the important parts of his speech. While it may seem simple when you listen to him, one look and you can tell he's malicious and has another intention--Discord was only used as a stepping block, and once Discord had fulfilled his usefulness, he sapped all of Discord's powers, once again showing how clever and evil he was.

Moreover, Celestia’s plan would have worked either way, no matter who she transfers her powers to. If she didn’t transfer, Tirek either could call in Discord, defeating Celestia with force, or if Tirek already sapped Discord’s powers, threaten the mane six. Due to the lack of battle (my opponent agreed it was a 1,000 year streak without war), Celestia’s skills are very rough and unpracticed. It is actually expected that she transfer her powers to Twilight; Twilight was the one who defeated the villains before, and Celestia doesn’t trust in her own battling skills. This actually makes sense. Celestia disappeared during Nightmare Moon’s rampage (supposedly, she was trapped…or something?) Celestia could not defeat the power of Shining Armor and Cadence’s love. She was so rusty that she didn’t think that she could go and get the elements of harmony, and so she was forced to put the mane six in danger. It all makes sense, Celestia is trying hard to regain her battling skills in the face of danger, but time and time again her job is made hard by the fact that the villains all come back stronger than before. Her thousands of years of experience are useless because she hasn’t battled in a thousand years. Therefore Tirek would not have been walking into his own defeat, and as a result sacrificing the mane six would not have been a very good idea.

As for the mural, it was probably more of Discord’s work than anyone else’s. I mean, would Celestia put a humorous mural of Discord+Tirek? Of course not. Discord was probably just trolling Tirek and “testing” him. Of course, this “test” failed, but Discord’s arrogance once again gets in his way and he fails to see that Tirek is extremely manipulative and has more in his mind than it seems.

Let’s talk about Celestia’s plan now. Did I mention that Celestia is stupid and the plan works out either way, and Tirek gets defeated either way? Celestia probably depends on Discord’s reveal. I mean, Celestia knows Discord is over-confident and will help you if it helps complete his ultimate goal of chaos everywhere. Besides, Celestia knows Tirek hates traitors, as Tirek hates his own brother for going against him. Therefore Celestia probably predicted that Discord would reveal, and Tirek would trap the mane six and betray Discord because Tirek is malicious and wants to get back at Discord, then because Celestia taught her student so many lessons, Twi would obviously sacrifice her power for her friends.

Celestia and Luna do not have six keys. They cannot open the box and defeat ultimate Tirek at his greatest power. However Twi and her friends can. This is another explanation for why Celestia had her seemingly suicidal, stupid plan. In this case, then Celestia cannot defeat Tirek. Again, lack of battles in 1000 years? That’s a lot.

Finally, I bet you’re wondering how Celestia knows that Twi and her friends have the keys to open the box to defeat Tirek. Well, as far as we’re concerned, the only thing that can defeat the tree are the plunderseeds. Surely Celestia knows how powerful the tree is—enough to defeat Tirek, even if Tirek has all the magic in the pony universe.

Furthermore, Celestia is a stalker, explaining how she knows Twi and her friends have their keys. (See the music video)

y opponent has the final round to make final rebuttals and conclusions. I wish her good luck.


Debate Round No. 3


I thank my opponent for a great and enjoyable debate. Since this is the final round, I will not bring up anything new unless it is in response to something that my opponent just brought up last round (meaning this is my first and only chance to reply to it). Of course, my opponent is allowed to do the same in their round. Though I will try to link everything back to previous arguments.

For ease, I will stick with the format my opponent is using.

1) No Pony Ever Rebels

This is the first time my opponent mentions the Mongols, so I will address that. The Mongols ruled with fear and power, as my opponent said. This does not match with what my opponent said in their R2 that they love Celestia too much to rebel. This shows that the example is not adequate. The Mongols are the only point my opponent holds in this section, so we can call it thoroughly refuted.

2) Sovereignty

The episodes are listed as sources for both of us from all rounds. I imagine that not all people are going to watch the episodes for sources, so I will be taking pictures from the episode and posting and explaining them so everyone can see how things played out.

Here, when our hero’s enter the city, they comment on all the guards (this is one of several shots showing guards EVERYWHERE).

Here, Chrysalis reveals herself and makes a speech (Celestia appeartly just watches for the fun of it, but there are no guards in the wedding at all, they must all be elsewhere). When told that her minions will never break the barrier, she doesn’t say “we are already in” or anything suggesting that they are the guards or anything. She says “Every minute, his spell gets weaker and my minions are chipping away at his barrier.” Suggesting that they are all outside.

Here we see them outside ramming the barrier.

And they finally break it, showing a ton of them outside of it.

They run through town from the wedding chapel to the castle (to where the Elements are) and no guards are seen, despite black winged terrors falling from the sky leaving craters in the ground.

They get in a big fight with the changlings and win and continue running to still find no guards. Remember, 6 not fully grown girls, none trained in fighting (only two are considered though) and only one with any combat useful magic beat down countless of these creatures. It is hard to imagine that the guards would be so easily over powered.

Though they eventually get caught.

These are the only two guards shown in the entire thing and they are just brushed over during a song about Chryslis’ victory. Of all the guards that were shoulder to shoulder when they entered, they did absolutely nothing.

Please remember, this is not a new argument, only showing the sources already presented to those that may not choose to watch them. While my opponent presents an interesting theory about changlings hiding as guards and fighting off screen, there is no evidence of it at all in the show.

3) Tirek

My opponent says the Bin Laden example is “kind of different” then does not explain how. Now my opponent never mentions Discord’s view on friendship, so I will address that as well. Firstly, the desire for friendship is part of the comparison (remember, I was talking about if we attempted to reform Bin Laden, the “friendship” is the reform). I will point to the source that have already been given. Firstly, when it comes to “friendship” Discord says “I’m doing this for my friends… It’s mostly for Fluttershy.” It is also no secret that none of the mane six (except Fluttershy, of course) actually like him. In this same episode, Applejack says, “Sometimes I think the reformed Discord is more obnoxious than the before he was reformed Discord,” to which no one disagrees.

My opponent brings up Tirek’s speech. I will point out a quote from one of the sources already given. Right after Tirek took Discord’s power, AJ said, “surely you saw this coming?” suggesting that it was obvious and not that cunning. I would also like to point out that Tirek consistently messes up when talking saying things like “my will” to which Discord corrects with “you mean ‘our’ will, right?” Those slip ups clearly undermine any sly cunning that one can claim.

Let’s go to Celestia not fighting for 1,000 years and being rusty (this is a new argument and so my first and only chance to reply). First, I did not say that there has been 1,000 years of peace. I said that all of my opponent’s previous examples were over 1,000 years old. I did not say anything about the last 1,000 years to present. While no conflicts are told to us, we do not know. In addition to this, it is pure speculation to if she was rusty or not. Though after she got her butt handed to her by Chrysalis, one would expect her to get back into shape (or get some form of defense). She is immortal (as far as we know, she hasn’t aged in thousands of years) so being too old is not an excuse.

As for Tirek walking into his own defeat, I have talked about the power balances for this and have to let what I’ve said in past rounds speak for itself (since it is not new, I will not re-address it). I am merely stating it here to remind people to evaluate the reasoning behind it as well as to show that it is not a dropped argument.

For the murals, bringing up the other murals and Discord is new, so I will only quickly address it. Obviously, Celestia would not know how or if Discord would mess with them. She only knew the starting configuration of the murals and that starting configuration was outing her entire plan (it just almost wasn’t outed because of Discord’s chaos almost confusing Tirek).

My opponent goes into an interesting conspiracy theory about how Celestia apparently knew everything that was going to unfold, down to every last turn of betrayal to each party. Though I see a complete lack of evidence for this theory.

I will also point out that my opponent does not show (with any evidence from the show) that Celestia’s plan of hiding the power in Twilight would save any ponies and only save the power (clearly, she is more interested in the power, than any of her ponies).

With all her failures to maintain power, her failure to see her shortcomings and compensate, her failures to utilize the tools around her to protect her subjects (not just her Alicorn power), and her inability to formulate a rational plans we can clearly see that she is been completely ineffective and is a truly terrible ruler.

Thank you,



Final round.
1. No pony ever rebels
I was only trying to use the logic syllogism to prove Celestia an effective ruler: If nobody rebelled, then the Mongols were effective. Nobody rebelled. Thefore the Mongols were effective. If no pony rebelled, then Celestia was effective. No pony rebelled. Therefore Celestia is effective. Sorry for the muddy here-and-there that didn't really get to the point.

2. Sovereignty
The mane six are actually very, very powerful and strong. As my opponent has stated before, Twilight has defeated the villains mentioned beforehand with the help of her friends. Nothing suggests the guards may be as strong as them, because we have pretty much NEVER seen them fight.
Here is just more proof solidifying the fact that the mane six have combat experience and it makes sense for them to wipe out loads and loads of changelings before finally getting caught.

EVEN SLEEP DEPRIVED, she can still kick loads of apples down from a tree.

Even AJ has a tough time handling Rainbow Dash.

Twilight: She has magic. Enough said.
Pinkie Pie: She's crazy. No one can avoid her hits.

Rarity: She can kick AJ away. :P

I have shown the mane six clearly able to fight good and fight hard. However, the show has never ever shown the guards fighting, so we don't know if even these ponies are half as good as the mane six. And we don't even know if the guards did absolutely nothing, there was so much chaos everywhere the guards might have already been knocked out cold and could not fight because of the weird goo.

3. Tirek
I'm sorry. Okay, so, Bin Laden actually has some "friends" within his terrorist organization, and obviously he ain't the spirit of chaos. There's the line of division between Laden and Discord. As for Tirek's mistakes, you must believe that Tirek knows of Discord and his arrogance, right? I mean, if Tirek knows Discord is the "master of chaos" and could effectively persuade Discord into doing his bidding, surely Tirek knows Discord is an arrogant creature. In addition, the "my will" was only slightly doubted by Discord, further highlighting Discord's arrogance.

The 1,000 year of lack of battles--as we have mentioned before, these villains attack one after another, barely giving time for Celestia to gain back her old battle experience. Moreover, Twilight has defeated all villains before Discord. It would make sense for Celestia to send out somepony that has defeated those villains before rather than herself, whom has been useless within the previous battles.

Celestia and the murals--
here it is not visible:
Luna "we cannot have what he is looking for" S4E26
And suddenly the windows change weirdly and it is visible:
Debate Round No. 4
47 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bladerunner060 2 years ago
I was rooting for Con in this debate. I, too, had noticed the problems of Celestia's rule, and was hoping that Con could show that Celestia was an effective ruler.

Unfortunately, I don't think Con quite managed to pull it off.

The general peace, or lack of rebelling, argument was sound, and showed that in 'normal' times, Celestia did fine as a ruler. But as Pro noted, once things get complicated or dangerous, Celestia's rule seems far less effective. Trusting Discord was clearly a mistake. Similarly, hiding the alicorn power wasn't really an offensive strategy. I think Con could have tried to argue more strongly that everything was part of Celestia's 'master plan'--had Con done so, I think his arguments would have been stronger (after all, as Con notes, Celestia has a habit of not fully explicating herself, as evidenced by her not telling Twilight much but that she needs to make friends, and as Con doesn't note, never letting on that Twilight was on course to be an alicorn herself).

I was equally surprised, though, that Pro didn't bring in Sunset Shimmer at all. That one was a big mistake on Celestia's part.

In the end, I think Pro presented a coherent and strong case. Con's had to rest on ideas such as 'off-screen fighting' and such that he simply couldn't sufficiently support.

As such, arguments to Pro.

All other categories seemed equal enough. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
thank you.
Posted by YYW 2 years ago
CON requested that I vote on this, and I will within the next week.
Posted by Ajab 2 years ago
I would vote but I have not seen this show...
Posted by Ore_Ele 2 years ago
oh, I should have gone with "bear hugs are not love enough for Fluttershy"
Posted by Ore_Ele 2 years ago

The bear had to be made an example.
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
I'm guessing that pink haired pony was a member of The Six. But why was he/she murdering a poor defenseless bear?
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
we won't be tied for long....or will we?
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
I hope my argument doesn't provide new evidence, or little new evidence. It's a bit hard to tell.
Good debate.
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
you're a very caring parent BTW.
Thumbs up!
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by YYW 2 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: test
Vote Placed by Ragnar 2 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Blank slate voter (never seen the show, don't intend to)... "secretly rules with an iron fist" you mean hoof right? I initially liked the Obama comparison from con, but pro turned that around so painfully, and no amount of special pleading could put that back in the bad. The mongols were a decent point, which ended up not being too well executed, however the related no rebellion point fell very flat as everything in this debate seems to be about how often there's rebellions (aren't all the villains just ponies either rebelling and/or eating paper?). The guards were not seen fighting, but had previously been seen abused as slaves by Celestia; little wonder they were not seen fighting for her (the appeal to ignorance did not fix this)... Not quite sure why a pink haired pony was murdering a poor bear. I did love the screenshots bit near the end. Lets see arguments to pro, sources tied (the sources were the same episodes as each other, how could it be anything but a tie?)