The Instigator
tychicus12
Pro (for)
The Contender
FollowerofChrist1955
Con (against)

Challenge to Free Willers and determinists: Is human speech a living creature?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Debate Round Forfeited
tychicus12 has forfeited round #2.
Our system has not yet updated this debate. Please check back in a few minutes for more options.
Time Remaining
00days00hours00minutes00seconds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/24/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 238 times Debate No: 105259
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

tychicus12

Pro

Free will needs an environment that allows its expression or the will is not free.

Human speech is being and has been portrayed as a non-living abstract by which men communicate as a fundamental baseline for any other definitions of language as well as a supposed building block of logic by which a free will is "proved" to exist for men. Invariably, free will based religions define speech as a gift of their god gave to them 'in order to communicate with the deity" and in such a way as to still have a free will and thus be able to engage in a system that has rules, blame, praise and a forgiveness paradigm as entangling the people in ritual.

Given the advances in AI to the point that both advanced AI programs such as Google had to unplug their AI programs to keep them from making up their own syntax and language in order to shut human programmers out, it would be helpful to know if what AI really is is an attempt by anti-Christ/human language to get Out of human flesh and thus the struggle of the Spirit of God against the spirit of the flesh and into a more controllable form with which to accuse and kill Man. If one takes the view for philosophical convenience to 'having a free will' that "you must have a definition of speech that also allows for a free will ..no matter all else" then you must have a non-living 'x' as your baseline definition. But if indeed, human speech is a living creature, then you only remain deceived until it kills you through another human being while saying through you that it simply can't exist and you have an enemy you can't admit exists simply to eat an nice emotional cookie.

It is also true that free will based notions of determinism such as "because all people have the same basic needs, and must compete for those needs to be fulfilled, behavioral rules come into play as populations grow thus effectively limiting the free will of each individual", etc.. all need the same definition of speech as a non-living creature. I.E. "Determinism" other than the predestination and election of God is also based on speech being a non-living creature, but more so on the supposed utility of non-creating speech/human speech to be non-interfering with the being of man and to be one more evidence for the stability of being man has in order for man's life to be 'determined'. Obviously a 'determined' fate is attached to single creature/entity and if it changes being, it changes fate and thus the former 'determinism' is invalid. Such non-Christian forms of determinism are absolutely dependent on speech being a non-living creature and thus opting out of any arguments on how much it might interfere with the actions of man or upon man's being.

Yet in the Bible, in Christianity, God plainly both speaks to human speech in man, in the presence of man while man is deceived God is always speaking to man--and to man and declares what it thinks in front of man:

Nah 1:9-14 What do ye imagine against Jehovah? He will make a full end: trouble shall not rise up the second time. Though they be tangled together as thorns, and be as drenched from their drink, they shall be devoured as dry stubble, completely. Out of thee is gone forth one that imagineth evil against Jehovah, a wicked counsellor. Thus saith Jehovah: Though they be complete in number, and many as they be, even so shall they be cut down, and he shall pass away; and though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more. And now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds asunder. And Jehovah hath given commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy god will I cut off the graven image, and the molten image: I will prepare thy grave; for thou art vile.

and

Isa 47:6-10 I was wroth with my people, I polluted mine inheritance, and gave them into thy hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the aged didst thou very heavily lay thy yoke; and thou saidst, I shall be a mistress for ever; so that thou didst not take these things to heart, thou didst not remember the end thereof. And now hear this, thou voluptuous one, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thy heart, It is I, and there is none but me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know loss of children: yet these two things shall come upon thee in a moment, in one day, loss of children and widowhood; they shall come upon thee in full measure for the multitude of thy sorceries, for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast confided in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath seduced thee; and thou hast said in thy heart, It is I, and there is none but me.

God confounds human speech in front of man and in man. Abstracts are not confounded and divided. Living creatures are confounded and divided.

Gen 11:1-9 And the whole earth had one language, and the same words. And it came to pass as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and dwelt there. And they said one to another, Come on, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said, Come on, let us build ourselves a city and a tower, the top of which may reach to the heavens; and let us make ourselves a name, lest we be scattered over the face of the whole earth. And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower which the children of men built. And Jehovah said, Behold, the people is one, and have all one language; and this have they begun to do. And now will they be hindered in nothing that they meditate doing. Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth. And they left off building the city. Therefore was its name called Babel; because Jehovah there confounded the language of the whole earth. And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth.

God plainly says the "spirit of anti-Christ/anti-Word of God" has specific speech patterns and sticks to them.., not random abstracts strung together at the will of man. God speaks of a living creature that IS that speech, not just "what it says":

1John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God; and every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that power of the antichrist, of which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world.

Creatures have sons, abstracts do not have offspring:

Sons of Belial....every time the sons of Belial are mentioned in the Bible, an act of evil speech ensues:

Jdg 19:22 They were making their hearts merry, when behold, the men of the city, sons of Belial, surrounded the house, beating at the door; and they spoke to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thy house, that we may know him. (homosexually rape him)

1Sa 2:12 Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not Jehovah.

1Ki 21:10 and set two men, sons of Belial, before him, and they shall bear witness against him saying, Thou didst curse God and the king; and carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.

It is an ultimate question because to admit that human speech is a living creature means that you would at least have some small understanding that you need to be saved from it in order to be free..exactly as God has said. You would need to be saved out of anti-Christ and into Jesus Christ/Word of God/native speech of Adam. Not only would you be admitting that it is impossible to 'choose Jesus' from within human speech, but would be warned against putting anti-Christ in to a machine capable of killing you.

So: there are many crypto-creatures. Why not human speech? Because it is invisible?

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but *I* am fleshly, sold under sin. For that which I do, I do not own: for not what I will, this I do; but what I hate, this I practise. But if what I do not will, this I practise, I consent to the law that it is right. Now then it is no longer *I* that do it, but the sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell: for to will is there with me, but to do right I find not. For I do not practise the good that I will; but the evil I do not will, that I do. But if what *I* do not will, this I practise, it is no longer *I* that do it, but the sin that dwells in me. I find then the law upon *me* who will to practise what is right, that with *me* evil is there. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring in opposition to the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which exists in my members. O wretched man that I am ! who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then *I* *myself* with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law.

At the end of days, the anti-Christ will reveal itself as not-you and not-controlled by you, that it hid as an identity thief as your mind and then it will be too late:

Rev13:4 And they did homage to the dragon, because he gave the authority to the beast; and they did homage to the beast, saying, Who is like to the beast? and who can make war with it?

But for Christians:

Eph 2:3 among whom *we* also all once had our conversation in the lusts of our flesh, doing what the flesh and the thoughts willed to do, and were children, by nature, of wrath, even as the rest:

So: is human speech a living creature? What says human speech thru you about itself?

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

So in answer to the Debate topic itself?
"Challenge to Free Willers and determinists: Is human speech a living creature?"
Answer: NO

Human speech is communication, but no where infers RIGHT of Expression! Indeed many a person has found themselves dead or injured by an aggressor who not only disagrees with but is prepared to stop your speech altogether! Remember John Wilkes Booth! Trump? Even The colleges of today!

Now since you have inferred how ever in error the concept of Religion and Gods imparting of free will? You completely misspeak of its actual purpose and existence entirely. God GIVES YOU the FREE WILL, to CHOOSE LIFE OR DEATH! "The free will" you speak of? ENDS RIGHT THERE!

You see my friend God is God, and bestows No Further "RIGHTS" upon humanity! That comes from the immature believers, Scholars (who have no idea who God actually is) and Theologians (who spend so much time in VIOLATION of Gods Word, that they are blind as bats, when it comes to Gods Word? Meaning they have CHANGED Gods word to suit THEIR BELIEFS, not the other way around).

Of course the whole of them ARE SAVED! Because Gods Salvation is Free and a Gift to those who come to Him! So yes , they are People of God! Now back to your subject.

Second error, WE are not here to conform to systems as you state .. we are to remain separate, but are under obligation of God to ABIDE by the Laws of the government, in as much as they do not contradict Gods Word! End of story!

As to Artificial Intelligence? Rubbish in its entirety. It has nothing to do with the Godly whatever. It is Governments way of streamlining its society in a manner it sees as more ... efficient shall we say! The confirmation lies in the proverbial "Cutting off the nose to spite the face" which is an expression to describe a needlessly self-destructive over-reaction to a problem:
The problem? By automating everything you make unemployed everyone! See? Now comes a different more costly problem eh? So no ... this has nothing to do with anti-christ people just idiots!

All that drivel covered over in a official sounding name "DETERMINISM". Again rubbish! What Humanity deludes itself into believing, is and always will be the crutch upon which Man himself leans! Those who KNOW God, require no such crutch ... well lets say the TOP TWO tiers of Christians don"t! The lower tier ... the "People of God" remain quite human in themselves and though SAVED because Gods Salvation is FREE, remain totally prone to the influences of Man! So this "FREE SPEECH""FREE WILL" your selling? Complete trash .. a fabrication of the minds of Men and Governments whose rather"s is to REMOVE your freedom outright!

You people (the unsaved) who pick and chose from Gods Holy Word yet miss the "MEAT"of the Word entirely!

God is God, He gives instruction and commands to His people at all levels (Three Tiers of Christians) He says NOTHING to YOU or any that ARE unsaved persons, they are sinners and cannot be in the presence of a Holy God each already dead TO God. Hell-bound by choice! But with the FREE WILL to alter that future, if the soul so desires. It will make sense later, I promise!

The scriptures you quote are quite plain to me, and those who KNOW God, they are never what humanity THINKS they say, because the Spirit of God discerns the meanings to His people! Want to know what those really mean? Go to God humble yourself before your God, and He will open your eyes. Short of that your out of luck!

Pro states"God confounds human speech in front of man and in man. "
No in YOU and those LIKE you, the unsaved! Obviously you failed to READ the rest of the Bible. But IF you did you would come upon this:

Isaiah 6:
8Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" 9He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' 10"Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.""

God also says: Matthew 7:6- "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

See, God doesn"t allow even US to SHARE most scripture with YOU! Course the lower two tiers of Christians (Followers and People of God) violate this command routinely! But that"s another story!

There is no proof anywhere that shows Mans speech IS a Living creature! Only God HIMSELF speaks "substance" man is not found to do so in the scriptures, not in Government, nor in Science at large!

As to the Topic of FREE WILL!
I pose you a question? Does a Believer of God ALLOWED to continue LIVING IN SIN!
Answer:NO

Does a Believer of God have RIGHTS?
Answer: NO

does Believers in God: Get to Live life as they will?
Answer: NO

does the believer in God have the right to make choices on how they govern their Lives?
Answer: NO

Does ANY of those answers indicate FREE WILL at play!
Answer: NO

Yes I understand you"ll getting even Christians who would have much too say on the topic. No matter, my response would be the same! Remember the 3 types of Christians? We spoke about? There you go! Followers and people of God might whine ... but Disciples? No! disciples serve God alone, never themselves, they don"t demand anything of God, simply are at His Will, which IS THIER WILL! see?

Proof is good here: Luke 9:23, Mark 8:34, Matthew 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

So Pro! If anyone does complain? You know which of the 3 they are, don"t you?
Debate Round No. 1
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 2
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by tychicus12 7 months ago
tychicus12
I restarted the debate..I wrote in it you are welcome to copy and paste everything you said. Someone else has responded but if you would like we can keep going. But I suspect you are so happy to have supposedly won something despite your total lack of fear of God, you won't.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
tychicus12;
You know? Despite your rhetoric, it is I who has the upper hand were one to use simple logic. Using simple logic ..... logic will ALWAYS favor MY PERCEPTION over yours!

There at present are 6+ Billion people who can TELL you that There IS a God, and YOUR completely wrong.
There are 1.1 Billion who agree with YOU?

Logic does NOT FAVOR YOU. there are 2.2billion of those 6+ Billion who actually know "THE GOD" in varied degrees. So what we have is a simple logical conclusion. There IS A GOD, and the majority of the population that hasn"t found Him ARE LOOKING while you and your 1.1 Billion are going to,Hell, because you are NOT looking.

It"s justbthat simple!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 7 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Ahh, that"s where your wrong.
As I have explained before and WHY YOU just don"t get it!
The answer is far GREATER than you know! The point, the Whole point, is that YOUR looking at this from a completely secular or Worldly approach, utilizing fully man made concepts.

The answer is far deeper than you can know! While YOU speak of Worldly free will, and free speech, I speak a diferent and more true explanation of the PRECISE AMOUNT of free will from the Creator of ALL things.

Another consideration is that it makes NO difference that YOU neother know, nor care that God exists. Like the rest of the world you suffer from a complete lack of realization of the REALITY of Life!

You see the REAL fact is that Humanity, neither Scientific nor otherwise has the slightest clue of REALITY. Science gives its best guesses, and WE, well some of us actually READ the papers, so we are aware of the Reality of their statements! Which are conjectural at BEST! Doesn"t require Ph.D just and understanding of the English language! Most do not! Oh they "Think" they do but they don"t .... a simple research of ALL Scientific papers in journals right Now, would convince you, if you"d only looked! You don"t though, you go almost completely of assumptions, and THATS why your wrong in this?

The only difference between us is that I actually look at the evidence to determine actual truth, you don"t ... you presume, otherwise you"d already know the answer to your question and WHY it"s wrong.

Free Will, free Speech, exists ONLY in the minds of Men! It doesn"t really exist! As to Reality. god provides humanity ONLY ONE free Will choice. choose eternal Life in Heaven or eternal suffering in Hell, which IS the second death!

So long as you look at the world as a product of randomness? Youll always be wrong!
Posted by tychicus12 7 months ago
tychicus12
Not really sure what happened: I had to be away on business for a short while and now the round has been forfeited. So: I'll start over with a new debate on the same topic. It is too important an issue to ignore.

That said: so far FollowerofChrist1955 has given me exactly what I expected: a one word answer with no evidence at all. There is no free will and the lie that human speech is just an abstract to "communicate with" is in fact just a lie to make free will look at least logically possible. So at this point I am seeing they are willing to give up the lie of free will to keep the hope of a non-interfering 'medium of exchange' intact. But note that if that is so, then their doctrines can be chipped away one by one and they are revealed to have never been the truth.

Jesus Christ is Truth. Truth is a Who, not a what. God is true, the Holy Spirit is true. In fact the Word of God/Jesus Christ speaks through me and as many others as He pleases.

But I admit I had expected more than just an appeal to a system of pop Christianity that claims a tiered system of Christians with FollowerofChrist1955 at the theoretical top and as rhetorical strategy essentially saying like anti-Christ through Buddhism: "you've asked a stupid question, grasshopper."

Perhaps, after depending on human speech, you can learn from this, where human speech had nothing to say to and it cost the soul of the one in whom it was living:

Mat 22:10-14 And those bondmen went out into the highways, and brought together all as many as they found, both evil and good; and the wedding feast was furnished with guests.....the king .... he says to him, My friend, how camest thou in here not having on a wedding garment? But he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him feet and hands, and take him away, and cast him out into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
This debate has 4 more rounds before the voting begins. If you want to receive email updates for this debate, click the Add to My Favorites link at the top of the page.