The Instigator
bookwormbill1
Pro (for)
Losing
22 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
41 Points

Charmandar is so much better then Bulbasaur

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/22/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,440 times Debate No: 5776
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (9)

 

bookwormbill1

Pro

Bulbasaur is stupid. He uses grass attacks. Everyone knows that if you light grass on fire, it burns. Therefore, Charmander would roast Bulbasaur alive.
Logical-Master

Con

My opponent had made one point; he has contended that since charmander could burn Bulbasaur (in other words, since Bulbasaur is vulnerable to Charmander's flame powers), Charmander is better. However, what my opponent fails to acknowledge is that whereas a full water assault would mostly be ineffective against Bulbasaur, Charmander would be soaked into submission quite easily. In other words, Bulbasaur would have a better chance against the likes of squirtle or mudkips than Charmander would. Ergo, since both have such an effective weakness, I conclude that Charmander is not "so much better" than Bublbasaur, but rather equal when all things are considered.

PS: "Charmandar" is not the name of a Pokemon.

And that'll do it for now.
Debate Round No. 1
bookwormbill1

Pro

I would like to point out that my opponent brought up that Charmander 'would be soaked into submission by a full water attack.' As my opponent fully knows, Bulbasaur has no water attacks. Therefore Charmander would burn Bulbasaur, and Bulbasaur would be unable to defend completely.

Another point I would like to bring up, is that Charmander is a real Pokemon. It is listed as #4 in the Pokemon Pokedex.

Another Contention, is that Charmander evolves into Charmeleon, which evolves into Charizard. Everyone knows that Charizard can fly and breathe fire. It can be considered a true dragon, such as dragons of mythology. Bulbasaur evolves into Ivysaur which evolves into Venusaur. Venusaur is a slow, cumbersome creature that could be easily avoided if needed. It cannot fly, and it cannot move fast enough to keep up with faster Pokemon. Thus, Charizard (the final evolution of Charmander) is superior. And since it evolves from Charmander (through Charmeleon), Charmander can then be called superior to its opponent Bulbasaur.

I await my opponent's rebuttals.
Logical-Master

Con

First, my opponent states that my point regarding the fact that "Charmander would suffer from a water attack" is incorrect given that Bulbasaur has no water attacks. In response, I contend that this is nothing more than a red herring employed by the instigator. If I recall, this debate is about proving whether or not Charmander is SO MUCH better than Bulbasaur, not whether or not Charmander could beat Bulbasaur in a fight. Clearly, given that their weaknesses balance out, this would suggest that they were equal.

Second, to pacify the opposition, I shall go ahead and argue under the idea that this debate concerns who'd win in a fight:

1) Charizard is NOT Charmander just as Venasaur is NOT Bulbasaur, thus, PRO citing these pokemon and changing their abilities has no bearing on this debate. Noting this, it must be noted that PRO has by no means upheld his stance.

2) However, even it did have bearing, Venasaur will still more likely be the victor in a duel with Charizard.

As suggested by their base stats (1, 2), although it's true that Charizard is faster than Venasaur, his HP, defense and special defense are all lower than that of Venasaur's. From this, we note that Venasaur would be able to shrug off more attacks than Charizard would.

Also, if you'll note Venasaur's move list, you'll note that it has more status effecting techniques. Most importantly, this Pokemon can use sleep powder. Thus, as the overconfident beast Charizard makes its speedy assault, Venasaur can sit down comfortably and surround itself with sleep powder the moment Charizard is in range. This will temporarily put Charizard to sleep and will provide Venasaur time to finish Charizard off without having to use any real effort (with quick usage of vine whip, Charizard's overly long neck could be snapped like a pencil).

Of course, if Charizard isn't in range, then this only works to Venasaur's advantage as that superior speed will be useless since it would only be effective in a close range battle. Venasaur can use this distance advantage to store up a solar beam attack. And with Charizard's inferior special defense stats, the elemental advantage won't mean as much and Venasaur can just causally snipe Charizard with a solar beam assault (even if Charizard evades, we must note that he'll wear down quickly due to having inferior stamina. That, or Venasaur could simply use sweet scent to lower his evasion).

Finally, Venasaur can use synthesis to simply heal itself over and over again (which will be especially possible if Charizard remains out of range in attempt to avoid succumbing to the effects of sleep powder).

No matter how we look at it, Venasaur would most likely be the victor.

Now I suspect that the instigator will come back and point out that Charizard could also attack Venasaur with a long range technique, there is plenty of reason to believe that Charizard's techniques don't count as "long range." I'll elaborate moreso on this in the next round if my opponent goes down this route. If he does go down this route, you must keep in mind that the burden of proof belongs to him as it will be he who is instigating this claim.

Thus, given all of the above information, I believe I've upheld my stance concerning whether or not Charmander is SO MUCH better than Bulbasaur.

PS: If the instigator attempts to cite any TM techniques in the next round, you are to disregard them as this debate concerns the natural talents of the two Pokemon; it doesn't concern the possible outside tools either combatant could use to get an advantage over the over.

SOURCES:

#1: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
#2: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Debate Round No. 2
bookwormbill1

Pro

Bulbasaur:
Sleep powder: 75% accuracy
Poison powder: 75% accuracy

Charizard:
Fly: 90% accuracy
Smokescreen: Reduces opponent accuracy

Venasaur:
No attacks have elemental advantage against Charizard

This information was provided by a kind, reliable source.

As my opponent is well aware, Pokemon's natural moves (moves they learn by evolution) are considered natural talents. However, Pokemon are physically able to use certain TMs. For example, if you were in a fight and you found a sword to use, that is not considered a natural source. You did not 'learn' the sword. You found it and it increased your own abilities. Thus, the sword and TMs are alike.

My opponent mentioned that most of Charizard's moves are not long-range. For example, Flamethrower is considered a long-range atack. Fly is considered a long-range attack. You cannot say that if Charizard is Flying, that it is not a long-range weapon.

Bulasaur's (and Venuasur's) Poison or Sleep powder is indeed short-range. Very short-range. He could not attack Charizard if he did not come close. And Venusaur's powders are slower to use than Charizard's speed attacks such as Fly. another long-range attack is Wing attack. That is an attack that is harmful to the opposing Pokemon.

My opponent also mentioned Venusaur's Synthesis attack. As all are aware, in the Pokemon games, if you were to use the same attack over and over again, you would run out of PP. In the 'real world' (or in the anime), Venusaur would be unable to move whilst using Sythesis, thus giving Charizard and oppertuninty to attack with a fatal Flamethrower or any fire attack.

My Sources:
Charizard: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Charmander: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Bulbasaur: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Venuasur: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...

I do believe that my opponent is not fully aware of the extent of our debate, as he keeps bringing up the statement that the are both 'equal'. I ask that the public reading this debate, support Affirmative.

Thank You.

I again await my opponent's arguement.
Logical-Master

Con

I would once AGAIN like to remind the audience that the instigator started this debate on the notion concerning which Pokemon was better as well as the notion that the Pokemon we were comparing were none other than Charmander and Bulbasaur. I've already done my job on upholding my stance when it concerned these notions. In both the previous round and this one, PRO has gone against the original intentions of this debate, thus, you are to consider this when voting.

>>>>NOW ONTO THE ACTUAL ROUND:

Borrowing arguments out of the comment section, eh?

In that case, the instigator should consider my own submission in the comment section.

I repeat:

1) Reread the conditions I posted for Venasaur using sleep powder. Venasaur would use it ONLY if Charizard were to get into its range (which is guaranteed to happen if he uses FLY, which, once more, shouldn't be up for discussion given that the discussion concerns charmander) . Essentially, it would be the equivalent to me throwing a smoke bomb to the floor the moment you were within 10 feet of me. I wouldn't need accuracy to ensnare you in the smoke as I could ensnare you in the smoke even if I was blind. Now if I were to have argued that Venusasaur were to be using this attack in the same manner it were using solar beam or its other attacks which can be used in a sniping manner, your rebuttal would be legit.

Of course, even to assume your argument has legitimacy, Venasaur still has sweet scent up its sleeve. Thus, to make up for the lowered accuracy, it could use sweet scent to lower Charizard's evasive prowess.

2) I've already discussed the lack of elemental advantage. He makes up for that with the status defying attacks such sleep power, poison powder, sweet scent and leech seed. In addition, it can use synthesis to HEAL itself via synthesis. All in all, a pretty good trade."

>>>>NOW ONTO THE ACTUAL CONTRIBUTIONS MADE BY THE INSTIGATOR:

RE: "As my opponent is well aware, Pokemon's natural moves (moves they learn by evolution) are considered natural talents. However, Pokemon are physically able to use certain TMs. For example, if you were in a fight and you found a sword to use, that is not considered a natural source. You did not 'learn' the sword. You found it and it increased your own abilities. Thus, the sword and TMs are alike."

Is that so? So if I were to post a topic which states "The New England Patriots are better than Tennessee Titans", according to my opponent, I could simply argue that the The New England Patriots are better because they could come across a machine gun and gun down the opposing team. Given how erroneous this analogy is, he has only further established that TMS are irrelevant in this debate.

RE:"My opponent mentioned that most of Charizard's moves are not long-range. For example, Flamethrower is considered a long-range attack. Fly is considered a long-range attack. You cannot say that if Charizard is Flying, that it is not a long-range weapon."

PRO cites Flamethrower as being a long range attack just as I expected he would. However, what he fails to remember is that flame thrower is simply nothing more than a barrage of flames from CHarizards mouth. In other words, it's the equivalent to a human being exhaling air as long as possible (except with range proportionate to Charizard's size). As seconds pass, the air weakens. Exhaling or spitting something is not quite as effective as actually throwing it or firing with a cannon of some sort (this can't be said for solar beam or razor leaf). Plus, if you look at a real flame thrower, you'll note the same thing. You can't snipe people with it.

As for the technique known as FLY, this isn't a long range technique as it requires Charizard to come into contact with his/her opponent. Hence, the heart of the first half of my argument on why Venasaur would win, given that Venasaur could simply WAIT for Charizard to get close enough so that he/she may cast one of his status effecting techniques. If anything, my smoke bomb example portrays this argument better than any other. Of course, we must once again note that Charizard is not Charmander, thus, this point made by my point is irrelevant.

RE: "Bulasaur's (and Venuasur's) Poison or Sleep powder is indeed short-range. Very short-range. He could not attack Charizard if he did not come close. And Venusaur's powders are slower to use than Charizard's speed attacks such as Fly. another long-range attack is Wing attack. That is an attack that is harmful to the opposing Pokemon."

I wholeheartedly agree that Poison or sleep powder is indeed short range, however, considering that I never made the argument that it wasn't (in fact, my argument centered around the fact that it WAS), I'm not sure why PRO wishes to center his attention on such a matter. As for Venasaurs powder being slower than Charizard's attacks, this is baseless conjecture. If PRO does not provide evidence that the actual process of dispelling the powder (in other word's, citing mobility stats is irrelevant) is slower than Charizard's wing attacks, you are to dismiss his claim entirely.

"My opponent also mentioned Venusaur's Synthesis attack. As all are aware, in the Pokemon games, if you were to use the same attack over and over again, you would run out of PP. In the 'real world' (or in the anime), Venusaur would be unable to move whilst using Sythesis, thus giving Charizard and opportunity to attack with a fatal Flamethrower or any fire attack."

And? If Charizard were to use its special attacks, it would run out of PP as well. That's not the issue. The fact of the matter is that whenever Venasaur is injured, it can simply heal itself. Thus, this would be a particularly long winded battle even in Venasaur's favor.

As for the anime's version of synthesis, I've described the conditions for Venasaur making use of synthesis (to which PRO has still not responded). Synthesis would only be used if Charizard were to keep its distance while fighting Venasaur.

Finally, I'd like to once again remind you all why insist they are equal.

#1. They have weaknesses that cancel each other out. Originally, the topic was simply centered around "who is best." Not who'd win in a fight.
#2. Even if we go by who wins in a fight, we must note that the two Pokemon's physical stats balance out (something else which PRO hasn't address, therefore drops).
#3. Whereas PRO brags about one Pokemon's destructive abilities, I've countered by pointing out the other's status effecting techniques. None of these techniques rely on brute strength or be canceled out by brute strength and are hence favorable against just about any Pokemon.

All three of this points would suggest that the two Pokemon were equal.

PS: I made a note of there being no such Pokemon listed as "Charmandar." It would seem PRO proved me right as the 4th pokemon on the pokedex is not CharmandAr. Rather, this pokemon is named "Charmander." :D
Debate Round No. 3
bookwormbill1

Pro

bookwormbill1 forfeited this round.
Logical-Master

Con

He forfeits, ergo he drops, ergo extend. :D
Debate Round No. 4
bookwormbill1

Pro

bookwormbill1 forfeited this round.
Logical-Master

Con

Huh, what? I snoozed off due to all the forfeits. Did I miss anything? Apparently not. Yeah, you know the drill. Since my opponent forfeits, he drops his arguments. With no objections to my arguments, he has failed to uphold his stance is therefore loses the debate.

I thank my opponent for the debate and the audience for reading. Buh-bye. :D
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bookwormbill111 8 years ago
bookwormbill111
LM, what is 'RFD'? and i only made a second account, because i wanted to continue using this site.

thank you philosopical. i enjoy random, nonsensical debates. they make people laugh.
Posted by philosphical 8 years ago
philosphical
oh my god i have never laughed this hard in my life... lol i love reading debates where non serious issues are talked about in big formal words. Good job guys loved the debate
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
RFD please. Though if that's Bookwormbill's second account, you'd better pray that voting doesn't become public. ;)
Posted by Mr.Alex 8 years ago
Mr.Alex
i personally agree with the aff. but LM is very persuasive
Posted by Dnick94 8 years ago
Dnick94
Charmander is so much better than Bulbasaur-
On which game?
Anime?
Or in general?

A better controversy- Kyogre vs. Groudon
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
See my second round. I pacified my opponent and am currently debating that as we speak (in spite of the fact that my opponent seems to argue over Charizard rather than Charmander, contrary to his first round). And yes, I think I can win. :D
Posted by funnybrad333 8 years ago
funnybrad333
Logical, I think he was trying to debate that "Charmander would defeat Bulbasaur in a fight".

If you think you can win on Con on that resolution, rephrase it so that I would be Con and supporting Charmander and I will gladly debate you :)
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Lucky for you, I don't care whether or not you argue with me in the comment section. Though just to let you know, there are other people who get pissed when users decide to post arguments in the comment section so I'd make a habit of clarifying with the debaters on "whether or not they mind you doing this" in the future.

1) Reread the conditions I posted for Venasaur using sleep powder. Venasaur would use it ONLY if Charizard were to get into its range (which is guaranteed to happen if he uses FLY, which, once more, shouldn't be up for discussion given that the discussion concerns charmander) . Essentially, it would be the equivalent to me throwing a smoke bomb to the floor the moment you were within 10 feet of me. I wouldn't need accuracy to ensnare you in the smoke as I could ensnare you in the smoke even if I was blind. Now if I were to have argued that Venusasaur were to be using this attack in the same manner it were using solar beam or its other attacks which can be used in a sniping manner, your rebuttal would be legit.

Of course, even to assume your argument has legitimacy, Venasaur still has sweet scent up its sleeve. Thus, to make up for the lowered accuracy, it could use sweet scent to lower Charizard's evasive prowess.

I'm still waiting on my opponent to make the argument I expect him make against the above, so I won't get into anything extra here.

2) I've already discussed the lack of elemental advantage. He makes up for that with the status defying attacks such sleep power, poison powder, sweet scent and leech seed. In addition, it can use synthesis to HEAL itself via synthesis. All in all, a pretty good trade.
Posted by Dnick94 8 years ago
Dnick94
Bulbasaur:
Sleep powder: 75% accuracy
Poison powder: 75% accuracy

Charizard:
Fly: 90% accuracy
Smokescreen: Reduces opponent accuracy

Venasaur:
No attacks have elemental advantage against Charizard
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Opinion or not, that sleep powder equals instance ownage. I can't count the amount of times a Malaboro in an FF game casted a sleep inducing move on my party, only for me to be screwed for the remainder of the encounter. Twould really piss me off more often than not.

FF aside though, I vaguely remember an episode of the anime (yeah, there was a point where I could stomach an episode of pokemon. Wanna fight about it?) Ash's Charizard (who is supposedly unique in comparison to other Charizards) got owned by a Pokemon who used this ability. I think it may have been a pokeman league battle episode, but I'm not sure. At any rate, the stat effecting moves are not to be underestimated as any one of them could make this a onesided battle in Bulbasaurs favor.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by thesupporter 3 years ago
thesupporter
bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Not vote bombing just that con losing conduct for making fun of his opponent but gets everything else because pro forfeited
Vote Placed by Tatarize 7 years ago
Tatarize
bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by crackofdawn_Jr 8 years ago
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bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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philosphical
bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by bookwormbill111 8 years ago
bookwormbill111
bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by bookwormbill1 8 years ago
bookwormbill1
bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
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bookwormbill1Logical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
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