The Instigator
TheCubanMissile
Pro (for)
Winning
32 Points
The Contender
TheLibertarian
Con (against)
Losing
27 Points

Che Guevara was a murderous thug and the kids that walk around wearing his shirts are morons!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,445 times Debate No: 287
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (17)

 

TheCubanMissile

Pro

As a Democrat, the party of Jefferson, Roosevelt and Kennedy, I have always been baffled by how the main stream media and Hollywood producers have portrayed Che Guevara as being this wonderful revolutionary freedom fighter and college kids wear t-shirts with his face on it.

The fact is that Che Guevara was from that. He was a Machavellian murderer and along with his buddy, Fidel Castro, killed tens of thousands of innocent people in a bloody revolution.

Ironically, the first people I see wearing Che shirts are college students, generally the long-haired rocker crowd. What they fail to realize is that in Cuba, Che Guevara would send young students to labor camps if they listened to rock music (like the Beatles). Castro's regime would also patrol the streets and round up young people by the dozens and force them to cut their hair "or else."

Che Guevara was also a racist. In his now-famous diaries he wrote that "blacks are lazy" as opposed to Europeans, which are "forward thinking." I bet you didn't see that in the Motorcycle Diaries.

This isn't a right vs. left issue, it's about right and wrong. Young people should take off their Che shirts, burn them and help promote peaceful transitions to democracy around the world.
TheLibertarian

Con

First of all, I would just like to thank you for creating this topic, as it is something I feel is usually discussed, but very few people really understand what it is about.

I'd first like to discuss the topic itself, which I am against, "Che Guevara was a murderous thug and the kids that walk around wearing his shirts are morons!" First of all, I will deal with the "murderous thug" part. I will not deny the fact that Guevara and Castro killed Cuban soldiers he was fighting for a definitely noble cause. One thing that you stated was that you are a member of Jefferson's party, and respect him. However, what was the Revolutionary War, but just that, a war, where many people died. While in no way am I saying it was not for a great cause, I feel the American Revolution and the Cuban Revolution are very similar. In pre-communist Cuba, there was a military regime, ran by Batista, where many people died in the awful and brital totalitarian regime. In colonial America, We ere oppressively controlled by the United Kingdom, and were forced to do a great deal of things and pay a great deal of taxes we did not agree with. Both revolutionaries, Castro and Che, and our forefathers, felt that the one solution that would work without fail would be a violent coup, and in both cases, were very successful. So in fact, Che was not a "thug" but in fact a liberator and a freedom fight, waging war against oppression and dictatorship.

Now, to the next point, about how the people who where the shirts are "morons". However, this could not be farther from the truth. When people were a shirt with his face on it, they are not necessarily supporting him, but his philosophy of revolution and change. Many people, especially "college students" as you have mentioned, are disgruntled with our current political system, and feel that one way to show it is by wearing one of the most famous revolutionaries on their shirt. In addition, another result, probably unplanned, of creating mugs, posters, shirts etc. with Che's face on it is to in essence go AGAINST his violent and communistic beliefs. He commonly attested that capitalism was atrocious, and that the only treu successful government would be a communism. But by creating a vast amount of merchandise, a very capitalistic action, this just causes him to roll in his grave, and for many people to further separate themselves from his actions, and to further solely represent his revolutionary freedom fighting, and not his communism and murder.

One last quick point, I believe it was about 180 people that Che's forces killed, which don't get me wrong is atrocious, but far fewer than the "tens of thousands" you tote.
Debate Round No. 1
TheCubanMissile

Pro

No, thank you for participating. I believe it's important for us to discuss this in an intellectual honest fashion.

Quite frankly, I believe you are falling into a logical fallacy trap that goes something like this: "If I was bad, therefore B must be good." That's not how things work in real life, especially with regard to the Castro's regime. Look, Batista was a dictator that had to be disposed, that isn't even debated. The question before us deals with whether Castro and Che's style of revolution was ultimately healthy for Cuba and I think the answer is clearly no for several reasons.

The first of which is that your comparisons are historically inaccurate and a little off. While Batista was certainly a dictator, the country was not a militarized state (that's just flat out false) and the vast majority of Cuban people weren't living terrible lives as the main stream media would want you to believe. Cuba had one of the highest literacy rates in the western hemisphere and was the third largest consumer of meat, on a per capita basis, in the hemisphere as well. Again, Batista was a power-hungry dictator and ran a state where the police would abuse the Cuban people.

The only thing that the Cuban and American revolutions have in common is the "revolution" word attached to them - that's it. The American revolution was a declared war fought between two nations, between soldiers. Castro's revolution relied on killing innocent civilians and setting off bombs in Havana. Yes, they did kill soldiers, which in a time of war is justifiable, but tens of thousands of innocent civilians were killed as well. The American revolution established democracy, civil liberties and Washington was an elected president. The Cuban revolution established a dictatorship, rights were taken away, dissenters were executed and Castro appointed himself as Cuba's ruler without ever holding a free election. Let's not forget that Che collaborated in all of those things that I've just mentioned, executed many innocent people himself, including women and children, and the revolution betrayed the Cuban people. They promised free elections within a year....never happened. Castro guaranteed that revolutionary would ever ascend to the presidency of Cuba...false. Che and Fidel promised more civil rights...for more than 45 years, any party in Cuba other than the communist party is illegal and punishable by a prison sentence. Internet access is illegal. Cubans cannot enjoy their own beaches because there is an apartheid in place. Not to mention, the regime has executed tens of thousands of innocent civilians. You get what I mean? You can't justify Castro's morally indefensible rule by sayin that Batista was bad, too. No, BOTH are bad.

Your last paragraph about Che shirts being capitalistic doesn't change anything. That's like me walking around with an Osama Bin Laden shirt saying that it's cool for me to wear it because by virtue of me purchasing it in a free-market I am going against Islamic terrorism. Also, you can't separate the "murderous thug" from the "revolutionary fighter." They're one and the same people. Hitler also saw himself as the liberator of Europe, that doesn't erase the atrocities he committed. Why give Che a free pass?
TheLibertarian

Con

While you make some excellent points about how the current government in Cuba is a authoritarian disaster, I still feel that you never realy point out how this is Che's fault. Guevara was killed very early after the end of the Cuban Revolution, and obviously had nothing to do with the communistic epidemic that occurred when the nation was controlled by Castro. In addition, while you are right that just because Batista was bad, that does not make Guevara and Fidel good, but they were fighting for a noble cause, and they felt that they would lead the control better than he did under a communistic government. However, similar to what happened in Russia, this led to a dictatorship with a few elite running the entire nation in a totalitarian regime. And while the after effects of the revolution were atrocious, Guevara had nothing to do with it, and the main culprit was and still is Castro.

In addition, you never really address my argument that when people were Guevara's face on a shirt, they usually don't ever support him, but just his philosophies of revolution against dictatorship and crimes against humanity. They usually have a major problem with the way our nation is being run, and to support a change and to express how they feel towards our current political system, they wear his face on their clothing, not to express their devotion to the man himself, but what he believed in.

Lastly, again, I state that the documented casualties of the Cuban revolution amounted to 180 deaths, and not "tens of thousands" that you have stated time and time again, so I just want to point that out.

In conclusion, I feel that while Che Guevara brought his revolution and coup out in a relatively bloody fashion, he did it for a noble cause, and the people who where him on their shirts do so to represent revolution in itself, and not the man behind it.
Debate Round No. 2
TheCubanMissile

Pro

TheCubanMissile forfeited this round.
TheLibertarian

Con

OK, so my opponent didn't put down a third point, which is fine, but than I will just repeat what I stated earlier.

Che Guevara was killed very early after the end of the Cuban Revolution, and obviously had nothing to do with the communistic epidemic that occurred when the nation was controlled by Castro. In addition, while you are right that just because Batista was bad, that does not make Guevara and Fidel good, but they were fighting for a noble cause, and they felt that they would lead the control better than he did under a communistic government. However, similar to what happened in Russia, this led to a dictatorship with a few elite running the entire nation in a totalitarian regime. And while the after effects of the revolution were atrocious, Guevara had nothing to do with it, and the main culprit was and still is Castro.

In addition, you never really address my argument that when people were Guevara's face on a shirt, they usually don't ever support him, but just his philosophies of revolution against dictatorship and crimes against humanity. They usually have a major problem with the way our nation is being run, and to support a change and to express how they feel towards our current political system, they wear his face on their clothing, not to express their devotion to the man himself, but what he believed in.

Lastly, again, I state that the documented casualties of the Cuban revolution amounted to 180 deaths, and not "tens of thousands" that you have stated time and time again, so I just want to point that out.

In conclusion, I feel that while Che Guevara brought his revolution and coup out in a relatively bloody fashion, he did it for a noble cause, and the people who where him on their shirts do so to represent revolution in itself, and not the man behind it.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bintalanizy 9 years ago
bintalanizy
Who are you to say if i have or have not read all of his books???? And yes I would love to continue his work. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Posted by TheLibertarian 9 years ago
TheLibertarian
Continue his work? Uh-oh. I would NOT suggest that.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
hahaha.. "I've read every book about him." There must be hundreds, if not a thousand-plus.

Che = murderous racist tyrant; George Bush on steroids.
Posted by bintalanizy 9 years ago
bintalanizy
People who say stuff against che dont really know who he was or what he was really about. Yes I'm against people wearing his shirt UNLESS they know who he was. I have read every book about him and seen all the movies, and i hope one day to continue his work.
Posted by IamMe90 9 years ago
IamMe90
then you'd be an idiot, wouldn't you?

lol
Posted by I-M-Right 9 years ago
I-M-Right
Well you know what, I'm wearing my Che shirt proudly as i'm typing this. GO CHE
Posted by TheLibertarian 9 years ago
TheLibertarian
I've seen this problem on this site a lot, and not really with my debates, but with others.
Please vote on who debate the best, and not neccesarily on your own views on the subject. Thank you.
Posted by IamMe90 9 years ago
IamMe90
I kinda hafta agree that people who wear Che on their shirts are morons - regardless of my own opinion of the man, perpetuating the economic system he so despised by commemorating him on a capitalist T-shirt is no way to respect him.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
Che was the hardcore communist and the more brutal of the two (he and Castro). Castro was actually an anticommunist early on. His brother was a hardcore Commie, but not him. He respected Jefferson! But Castro was/is a self-aggrandizing, power-hungry egomaniac, and when the U.S. rebuffed him by sending Nixon instead of Eisenhower to meet him, he chose sides with Russia. Plus, it was a lot more convenient to adopt communism and become a dictator than to lose the power he gained in a democratic election.
Posted by crusader34 9 years ago
crusader34
Um... the American War for Independence wasn't quite the same thing. First of all, there's a difference between killing enemy combatants and killing civilians, especially women and children. Never is the second action justified. Furthermore, the object of the struggle has to be taken into account. In the United States, we have created the stablest, most free country in the world. Cuba remains a backward hell-hole, and that has resulted precisely because of the aims of the revolutionaries - look at the state Cuba is in! Do you really think Castro is concerned about the welfare of the people?

I would reiterate the point made by "The Cuban Missile"; having a bad government in place is not enough reason to start a revolution. You must have the will and the means to replace it with something that's worth fighting a war - and that means killing people - for. What came into place in Cuba was a leap backward from an already bad situation.
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