The Instigator
benl100
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Speakerfrthedead
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Chicken or the Egg?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 845 times Debate No: 43522
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

benl100

Pro

First round is acceptance, I am arguing that the chicken came first. I doubly challenge anybody to argue that the egg came first. Let the games begin.
Speakerfrthedead

Con

I accept. Although I do not have a resolution here, haha. There's no solid proof I can give. But, since I love this question, I will try :)

Begin Mr. Ben
Debate Round No. 1
benl100

Pro

OK, now obviously most of the ideas we come up with during this debate are going to be unsubstantiated and speculative in nature, but without going into hard evidence too much it will be interesting to do this.

Now I believe it is the chicken because of the way that the species evolved. A chicken most probably was a mutation from two other closely related birds. These birds most likely then evolved from two earlier species which were also very closely related...and so forth. The species/genus of the chicken basically evolved from simple organisms much like most of nature. It grew and developed sexually and after being hatched, it adapted to its ever-changing surroundings and changed its body chemistry accordingly. The result is a type of species that we know as the "chicken" which then laid its first egg.

Organisms=> Complex organisms=> Bird-like creature=> "Proto Chicken"=> Chicken

You could look at monkeys and humans, the first species to develop 'bipedal' traits were not babies, and I doubt this quality was present due to a mutation at birth. I believe it was to be able to see over the tall grass of the South African savannahs and detect any predators. it could also of been to pick fruit of trees. The same is for the chicken, who knows I am assuming that one trait the chicken excelled in was the amount of body fat on itself. This would of been a reaction of its metabolism slowing down maybe due to a food shortage or something else, and hence gaining body weight . Speculation might say that the extreme change in dieting or eating habits might of passed this trait on to its hatch lings.

However, may I add that whatever the answer be, we thank science or our creator for giving us the gift of chicken. Chickens make fluffy, funny pets, they are very nice to eat and their addition to the joke community (chicken across the road) and metaphors-due to their hilarious eating and behavioral habits. Finally, they make added good ideologies to society (the 'pecking order' hierarchy)

What does Con have to say?
Speakerfrthedead

Con

I want to be clear on the question Chicken or the egg? So I will assume that we will not discuss the philosophical aspect for the question as being a circular reference of casualty and consequence. We are not discussing the question in the form of: "Which came first, X that can't come without Y, or Y that can't come without X?" [1]
So in that case we are asking the origins of the chicken whether it emerged from evolution as an egg or as a whole chicken.

"What does Con have to say?
"

I see where you are heading here with the theory of proto-chickens giving birth to chickens. But the chicken had to come from an egg first. Fine that evolution has caused a species of birds to evolve into the chicken by thousands or millions of years proccess but the first species of chickens must have emerged from an egg. If two proto chickens mate to form a chicken then it must first lay a chicken egg.

Scientist say a chicken egg contains proteins that can only be made from a chicken ovary meaning to make a chicken egg you need a chicken first. So if two proto-chickens mate and produce an egg it will be a proto chicken egg and if a chicken hatches from it, then the chicken came first

But regardless of whether it was a chicken egg or proto-chicken that formed the first chicken, the first ever chicken must have come from at least - an egg even if it came from a proto chicken.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...


Debate Round No. 2
benl100

Pro

Thank you for the ideas, I admit they make sense, especially if we are not discussing the philosophical aspect of this matter.

However, after doing a little more research, I happened upon this.

http://metro.co.uk...

Here is a quote: "British researchers say the chicken must have come first as the formation of eggs is only possible thanks to a protein found in the chicken"s ovaries."

"It had long been suspected that the egg came first but now we have the scientific proof that shows that in fact the chicken came first," said Dr Colin Freeman, from Sheffield University, who worked with counterparts at Warwick University."

Also, "The protein " called ovocledidin-17 (OC-17) " acts as a catalyst to speed up the development of the shell."

Now It would be impossible for this protein to develop in the egg, as obviously the egg would of not existed at this point. So the "proto-chicken" will of had a chemical mutation which allowed its babies to thrive in the world, as that is what the eggs purpose is; to protect, keep warm and deliver nutrients to the new chicken. Then the first ever egg would of been laid as a result of this mutation, and then every chicken laid by that hatch-ling would also bear the same trait of developing eggs.

Here is another source, http://www.icr.org...

This article suggests that most birds evolved from dinosaurs, and one trait which was passed down was the laying of eggs, dinosaur eggs were leathery and soft, achieving the same objectives as a chicken egg. So this same question applies to dinosaurs, the first ever dinosaur would of evolved from another species much like it, and then mutated to be able to develop eggs in the ovaries. If we follow this chain back through the evolutionary tree, the point I'm trying to make is the trait to develop eggs must of existed first, eggs are simply another beneficial mutation of natural selection etc.

At any rate, as this is the closing round, I would like to thank you for the debate. It has been very thought-provoking.
Speakerfrthedead

Con

Here is a quote: "British researchers say the chicken must have come first as the formation of eggs is only possible thanks to a protein found in the chicken"s ovaries."

I agree with this. But like I've said, if two proto chickens mate and produce a proto chicken egg and from that egg a chicken hatches who can produce chicken eggs with the special protein; then yes, you can say the chicken came first. I am well aware of this and that's why I talked about it before. I'll just quote myself to explain again.

"But regardless of whether it was a chicken egg or proto-chicken egg that formed the first chicken, the first ever chicken must have come from at least - an egg even if it came from a proto chicken"

So the first ever chicken must have come from an egg at the very least. Maybe the first chicken didn't come from a chicken egg specifically, but it still came from an egg or perhaps a proto chicken egg.

This article suggests that most birds evolved from dinosaurs, and one trait which was passed down was the laying of eggs, dinosaur eggs were leathery and soft, achieving the same objectives as a chicken egg

Actually there are arguments about this and I'm going to ironically use your own source. (lol)

"It's fashionable today to claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs, although again, there is little agreement on which dinosaur lineage was ancestral to birds. The claim persists in spite of the fact that birds and dinosaurs differ markedly. Legs must become wings and scales must become feathers. Dinosaurs had solid bones, yet bird bones are hollow. Reptilian dinosaurs were likely cold blooded while birds are warm blooded with an extremely high metabolism. Dinosaurs had lungs similar to mammals, while the bird's breathing scheme is totally different. At least dinosaur eggs were similar to birds eggs internally. Externally, they had a soft, leathery shell quite different from bird's eggs."
- http://www.icr.org...

So dinosaur eggs and bird eggs only have things in common internally. This idea of dinosaurs evolving into birds still needs more research. However, I agree that it is probable.

At any rate, as this is the closing round, I would like to thank you for the debate. It has been very thought-provoking

That's kind of you to thank your opponent. Thank you as well! It has been thought-provoking for me too. So in fact, I should be thanking you for instigating this debate. So thank you Mr. Ben.


Final words

It looks like I get the benefit of saying the last words. Anyway, I hope that you understood the points I was making during the debate. I borrow heavily my ideas in the video above.



Thanks to anyone who read this debate and thanks again to the insti`gator.

Have a good day.




Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Xstrain 2 years ago
Xstrain
You actually have two variable DNA strands the egg of the mutated bird that has intercourse with another bird. I think it mostly has to do with livestock movement and generation mutation. I don't think that bam a mutated turkey becomes a chicken, but over time and movement to different areas allows for the change to slowly take place as dominant genes take hold in new environments. But absolutely the egg would have to come first, chickens do not appear out of thin air.
Posted by DavidCarter 2 years ago
DavidCarter
If we accept the theory of evolution, then the egg must come first. A bird would have laid an egg, and this egg would have contained abnormal DNA (in comparison to the bird laying it) and assuming this new DNA variation contains advantages, wallah, we have a chicken that will reproduce and spread the new DNA.
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