The Instigator
Russia_The_almighty
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
alric8
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

China(Pro) vs UK(con)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Russia_The_almighty
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/3/2015 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 489 times Debate No: 74699
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

Russia_The_almighty

Pro

This is a war debate challenge to and which was asked by Alric8. I am (China).

If you are a member of the Art of War (AOW) debate group [created by @The-Voice-of-Truth], then you must vote on this debate. If you are a member of AOW and accept this debate, then state your win/loss ratio.

If you are interested in joining AOW, message @TheRussian or @The-Voice-of-Truth. The primary prerequisite to join this group is: you have to have participated in AT LEAST ONE war debate. If you are a member of AOW, you must vote on other members' war debates unless a valid reason is given. You can challenge other members to debates related to war game scenarios.

There is a Moderator who will ensure that this debate follows the below rules. For this debate, the Moderator is whoever asks first and is an AOW member.

There are some strict rules that apply. Voters must penalize any violation of the rules.

1. When you accept the debate, state your country, and state the numbers of your armed forces (aircraft, men, ships, etc.). Use this source for military numbers ONLY, as it is the most reliable: http://www.globalfirepower.com......;

2. Each country's turn can range from about 3 days to 60 days long, so all actions must be in accordance with this time period. (DO NOT try to win in one turn! Take into account that your opponent is also a living, thinking being that can adapt to a situation.)

3. Morale is a key factor in your armed forces' effectiveness.

4. You may produce more military forces (soldiers, ships, aircraft, tanks/humvees/cavalry), but it depends on your military budget, your country's population, and how industrialized your nation is.

5. You may choose to invade or defend.

6. The defender makes the first move.

7. The defender's primary military objective is to remove the attacker's forces from the defender's territory. The attacker's primary military objective is to annex the other country, or destroy it (physically, economically, etc). Secondary military objectives can be made by the debaters if they wish. Fulfillment of the military objectives is victory. If either side fails to fulfill their set objectives, the voters are free to reasonably determine the winner based off of who was more successful in completing their objectives.

8. If a nation's capital is destroyed/liberated, this does not necessarily mean that the war is won; the capital could be recaptured. If one of the debaters destroys or controls the administration of the opposing country, OR if the opposing country is destroyed to the point of no administration, then that debater is immediately guaranteed a 7-point victory.

9. Every aspect of the war must be realistic and must remain within the parameters established by the rules and the title. Any unrealistic action and actions deviating from the rules will cause the entire action to be void. Any further deviation after the first void action will result in a complete debate forfeiture.

10. Weapons of mass destruction are NOT allowed. A WMD is defined as:

-Radiological weapon or a radiological dispersion device: any weapon designed to spread radioactive material

-Nuclear or Thermonuclear weapon: an explosive device that derives its destructive force from nuclear reactions

-Chemical weapon: a device that inflicts chemicals designed to harm or kill humans/animals

-Biological weapon: the use of biological toxins or infectious organisms to inflict damage.

Non-conventional detonation of conventional weapons IS allowed.

11. No allies (NATO, UN, Muslim Brotherhood, or otherwise) under ANY circumstances. Annexation of other countries or agreements that allow formations of larger nations and/or direct military intervention is NOT allowed. Personnel and forces CANNOT be supplied by other nations.

You CAN have military or diplomatic agreements and/or treaties with other nations (agreements not to interfere etc). Radical groups, militant organizations, paramilitary factions et cetera are NOT allowed.

Religion is NOT a factor. No economic sanctions from any other nation, but economic warfare is allowed.

You cannot increase your country"s population, nor can you use ANY method to allow the involvement of other countries other than what is specified. You cannot receive donations or economic support from private agencies.

12. Cyberwarfare is allowed. Electronic warfare is limited to radar/radio jamming and interception; NO EMPs.

13. The country chosen must be one of the 206 sovereign states recognized by the United Nations as of 2015. Former states such as the USSR are not accepted, nor are territory-controlling factions not officially recognized by the United Nations, such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, currently the Islamic State), and Gaza Strip, controlled by Hamas, but recognized by the UN as a part of Palestine. You cannot choose my nation.

14. Appropriate conduct MUST be maintained: no insults, cursing, profanity, vulgar language or trolling. Any violation of appropriate conduct WILL BE REPORTED to DDO authorities.

15. If you fail to follow the rules once, you will be given a warning and your actions in that round will be void. Further disobedience of ANY of these rules WILL result in an immediate loss of the debate.

16. The Instigator is Pro.

17. These debates are strictly Force versus Force; no civilian action is allowed unless Total War is declared.

18. TOTAL WAR can be declared only as an absolute last resort. Total war is defined as the complete mobilization of all available manpower of the country. In a state of total war, every able citizen either joins the military personnel or the military labor workforce.

19. All scenarios MUST be realistic; there MUST be an established reason for conflict.

20. We may either follow the date-time storyline format, or state the events that occur directly as realistically possible in a period of 45 days.

21. This is a Category 2 AOW debate. A category 2 debate DO NOT allow the usage of WMDs. Category 1 debates allow WMDs.
alric8

Con

I gladly accept.

With nothing much more to say, I suppose, LET THE WAR BEGIN (yes I am aware it is the 21st century and not the Viking times)
Debate Round No. 1
Russia_The_almighty

Pro

As defender you could have made the first move and stated how the war started.

China
Total population: 1,355.692,576
Available manpower: 749,610,775
Fit for service: 618,588,627
Reaching age annually: 19,538.534
Frontline Personnel: 2,333,000
Reserve Personnel: 2,300,000

Tanks: 9,150
AFVs: 4,788
SPGs: 1,710
Towed Artillery: 6,246
MLRS: 1,770

Total aircraft: 2,860
Fighters/interceptors: 1,066
Fixed wing aircraft:1,311
Transport aircraft: 876
Trainer aircraft: 352
Helicopters: 908
attack helicopters: 196

Navy: 673
aircraft carriers: 1
frigates: 47
destroyers: 25
corvettes: 23
submarines: 67
mine warfare crafts: 6
coastal defense: 11

oil production: 4,372,000 bbl/day
oil consumption: 9,500,000 bbl/day
proven oil reserves: 17,300,000,000

labor force: 797,600,000,000
merchant marine strength: 2,030
Major ports and terminals: 15
roadway: 3,860,800
railway: 86,000
airports: 507

Defense budget: $145,000,000,000
debt: $863,200,000,000
reserves or foreign exchange and gold: $3,821,000,000,000
purchasing power parity: $13,390,000,000,000

Square land Area: 9,596,961 km
coastline: 14,500 km
shared border: 22,457 km
waterways: 110,000

Since this will be your first war debate that will give you a true challenge I will let you make the first move of showing how the war started along with initial preparations.
alric8

Con

I'm not able to copy and paste and my computer keeps on crashing. I will leave a link to my forces but although he has no obligation I would really appreciate it if my opponent would state my forces for me.

April 27th (2019): So china can work on a group of large engineering projects, they cut exports to by insane amounts their biggest exporter - the UK.

April 29th: David Cameron announces he will step down as party leader before the general election. The SNP (lead by Nicola Sturgeon), Lib Dems (Alric8), Green party (Natalie Bennett), and Plaid Cymru (Leanne Wood), form an alliance - specifically anti UKIP, but also to see if they could win the election.

April 30th: The UK is in political turmoil - the Tories are quickly becoming unpopular. All four feel very strongly about avoiding conflict, none want to renew TRIDENT.

May 3rd: China's biggest period of expenditure, mostly on Sky City, a 900m tall skyscraper designed by Adrian Smith. In sudden debt (but very temporary), they look to the UK, who in return offer a deal forcing them to pay more for labour and earn less money. China have no option to accept. Their working population's morale soar, as well as the population of the UK. People's views of the UK improved, the only exception are the people negatively effected by 'the Chinese anti-statute of labourers'; The people in charge of China. The UK have to mobilise. They order more options for F-35's and Eurofighters.

May 5th: The UK cannot launch a cyber-attack, but they can set up filters that make UK cyberspace inaccessible. If it is touched then a mini-cyber attack will be launched making it very hard to access cyberspace. The UK have immense defence plans, cyber warfare seems completely pointless, as it is impossible for either to cripple the cyberspace.

May the 7th 2020 Is the election date (if the debate gets that far), here are my forces: http://www.globalfirepower.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Russia_The_almighty

Pro

OK.
1. Sorry to tell you, but 2019 is unrealistic. At that time China would be far stronger than it is now assuming that World War 3 didn't happen or involve the Chinese.
2. No cyberspace is completely immune to being crippled especially to arguably the country with the best cyber warfare. No matter what they say, a cyber attack is possible to and can cripple a cyberspace to the stone age. If the UK can make cyber warfare pointless then how come America doesn't do it? Why wouldn't Russia do it?
3. My computer wouldn't let me copy and paste mine either.
4. Look to the UK in sudden debt. If I was China would've called either America or Russia.
5. You ordered F-35s and Eurofighters......... You can only make them yourself which I believe the UK already has the Eurofighter. The F-35s you can only get a license to produce it without making America angry and want to help support China.

Request accepted only to make it easier.

Total population: 63,742,977
Available manpower: 29,164.233
Fit for service: 24,035,131
Reaching age annually: 749,480
Active front line Personnel: 146,980
Reserve: 182,000

Tanks: 407
AFVs: 5,948
SPGs: 89
Towed artillery:138
MLRS: 42

Aircraft: 936
Fighters/interceptors: 89
fixed wing attack aircraft: 160
Transport aircraft: 365
trainer aircraft: 343
helicopters: 402
attack helicopters: 65

Navy: 68
aircraft carriers: 1
frigates:13
destroyers: 6
corvettes: 0
submarines: 10
coastal defense craft: 28
mine warfare: 15

oil production: 1,100,000 bbl/day
oil consumption: 1,217,000 bbl/day
proven oil reserves: 3,122,000,000

labor force: 30,150,000
merchant marine strength: I don't have the time for the rest.

LET THE WAR BEGIN!!! Cue epic music!
https://www.youtube.com...

May 20 Lib Dems (As you say is yourself) Has been elected to be prime minister in an election. Meanwhile fearing war may come between the two nation, China calls in the epic diplomat known as Mr. Almighty to negotiate.

May 23 Seeing a war will soon unfold, initially the UK decides to negotiate in Paris, but China says they want it on neutral ground so they do it in Switzerland. Mr. Almighty and Lib Dems are unable to reach an agreement both are satisfied with. Without an agreement to ease tensions and to stop UK mobilization, war is declared.

May 25 China launches a mobilization. J-10s are prioritized along with Type 99G tanks. China plans a massive cyber attack. However they soon realize what the UK has done to prevent this. They see their job just got much more difficult. China knows it will not be easy to get their forces half way around the world. They see three options.
1. Bring their fleet through the Panama canal and go across the Atlantic ocean.
2. Bring the fleet through the Suez canal and between Gibraltar and Morocco to Spain and then attack the UK.
3. Go around Russia.
They need to make a decision quick because they have until around until late fall before option 3 is useless.

May 30 China begins operation liberation. The Chinese fleet has moved to take Gibraltar. They will hold it for the duration of the war and afterwards give them to what China would consider their proper owners.

June 10 The Chinese navy goes through the Suez Canal and The fleet is temporarily at Egypt. To convince Egypt to let them do this, they give Egypt 1 billion.

June 11 China captures Gibraltar without a fight. The UK soldiers stationed there fled in fear.

June 13 The Chinese fleet is stationed at Spain after an agreement of 500 million USD was signed. Chinese aircraft are coming and continue to come they will attack when ready. China is still working at UK cyber defenses. Chinese satellites are in position over the UK monitoring army movements.

June 20 The Chinese fleet attacks with air support. A terrible battle ensues at the Celtic Sea. They see The UK has placed some mines which are removed by mine sweepers. Along with that the UK is firing its ballistic missiles which are only stopped by Chinese anti-ballistic missiles. The UK attacks with superior quality while China has numbers. In the end the UK fleet is defeated, along with 100 aircraft. China has lost many ships also along with 300 aircraft, but they still have plenty to invade with along with blockade.

OK so your navy is gone while I still have a navy that is blockading you my cyber warfare teams are working at breaking your cyberspace and will eventually succeed.
alric8

Con

Counter measures:

In 2019 the UK will have F-35s, and we already have Eurofighters,[1] (I've been in the passenger seat of one before!). The UK will generally be stronger.

The UK would never exhaust its navy, but it would retreat, or as a matter of fact not attack at all. Just say England's morale plummets due to the lack of action.

500m usd to station troops in Spain! More like 350b euros.

David Cameron, is still prime minister for conservatives. Lib Dems would never win an election, so I work as an undercover tactician while leading the lib dems. (you do not know this, you think David Cameron is still masterminding, and he is negotiating)

June 23rd: UK cyberattack china. The effect is minimal, but it becomes harder for the Chinese to attack and communicate. 4 satellites are shot down from earth, causing a much more difficult to sort communications blackout. A new shaped plane with Eurofighters technology but F-35 stealth (like, no similar tech) is developed by Brittan-Norman and hurried of the production line. Eurofighters are very rarely used due to the lack of stealth, unless they go in range.

June 24th: Type 45 destroyers are launched into production. A licence to produce Visby-class stealth corvettes is attained for 150m eur and 8 are built. The Chinese Navy have a very tough job and so do their air force. Not quite outnumbered, but with awful quality. The royal navy and air force launch projects that involve destroying targets exclusively using stealth craft. An operation known to no-one but the lib Dem leader, David Cameron, and people involved in the Royal navy and airforce. A further Albion class landing dock is under construction.

June 25th: an expensive license is attained to build type-209 submarines, of which 6 will be built. China are gradually becoming on their own, with almost everywhere backing the UK, including Japan. They can't intervene, but they all make agreements that make it hard for china to make use of high quality foreign material, and a lot allow cyberspace to be backed up. Whatever china do with cyberwarfare, the UK will always have a back up plan.

June 27th: after two relatively quiet days of the ftse 100 on 7100 points and steady attempts at cyber warfare, a (very very)souped up version of storm worm is launched. China's cyberspace reacts strangely, and becomes unresponsive.

June 28th: An even heavier-duty virus, Stuxnet, is now launched. China is doomed, they have no communication or orientation. Chinese officials claim they were going to attack the UK within the next 2 hours, but it is shrugged off.

June 29th: an army of ships heads over the Atlantic towards the great Nicaragua canal. China could not try and fight the convoy as the UK who paid hefty amounts, are now in an area that would be considered attacking US forces (you can't attack unless the US intervene that is against the laws). And yes, china is so against it's government the Chinese private firms are effectively helping, (or more so letting) the convoy pass through a canal managed by the Chinese. Wars start beginning of the west coast if Portugal, but Chinese forces are struggling. Their more all-out approach has lead them to much higher losses in the navy, and a further Chinese satellite is consequently shot down - the war is launching into space, and the Chinese have lost control over their satellites. Apache helicopters are launched into production, as well as warrior IFV tanks. On june 30th they will be launched with the new barge to catch up with the China bound convoy.

June 30th: Chinese forces, almost exclusively from the air, are driven out of Gibraltar. Their (rather dismal) resources are exhausted.

It is important to note my opponent should not be aware of the convoy heading west for China.
Debate Round No. 3
Russia_The_almighty

Pro

1. The only way to shoot down satellites are with ASATs(short for anti-satelite missiles) or some anti-ballistic missiles. Place a reliable source in the comments to show if they have either because from my knowledge they have neither.
2. I know they have Eurofighters and that must be pretty cool for you to be sitting in one of the most advanced aircraft in the world(I need to find a f-18 super hornet and sit in the passenger seat now to make me feel better).
3. I attacked your fleet assuming they were in a defensive positions.
4. Do you seriously think, the Chinese navy and airforce is not going to be very close to UK mainland make sure no ships are being produced or getting out? NO! WHEN I said China was blockading them I meant a blockade that was tight since they already lost ships.
5. There is no possible way, UK cyberspace could break through Chinese cyberspace before China did themselves even with the filters. The only notable cyber attackers in the world are listed below
1. Israel and China basically tied
2.Russia
3. America
Israel can shut down EVERYTHING in the Middle East in a month(likely even less). If China can't break through UK cyberspace before the UK can that is unrealistic. Especially with China starting to attack a MONTH before you even mentioned the UK cyber attacking
6. What do you mean wars are beginning on the west coast? Portugal would not want to go to war with anyone.
7. HOW on God's green Earth are you getting all these licences without paying a dime? Say nothing on the money paying for those licenses or all those licenses you got are VOID.
8. Why 350 billion Euros? I could probably buy a small country with that money. How about I make it 10 billion in Euros? If a country can spend that much to have Taiwan as VERY valuable land for invading(as wrichcirw said) then 10 billion is reasonable.
9. You said you made a new fighter with this British Norman? Unfortunately unless that guy was working for the government that would be him "donating" services to you. Even if he is, you would basically be making a fighter that an F-22 could barely be able to shoot down in a dogfight which is considered the best fighter aircraft in the world! Unless The UK has had this person working on this for the past several years.
10. Even with superior quality, advanced planes will not be win against an air force outnumbering you 5-1 along with a navy likely with anti-aircraft weapons assisting them!
11. Do you even know if the UK has and can use the Stuxnet?
12. Do you even know if the UK can conjure that souped up storm virus?

I don't see how most of your round is valid. Unless you can defend your actions which I kind of doubt, your round 3 is VOID. Also in your previous war debate with Kylar, yeah if your going to use my words on the Stuxnet at least rephrase it a bit more or give me credit since that's plagiarism. I will tell you in the comments if you don't know what I'm talking about.

For the sake of the limited rounds remaining, I will continue with a brief summary as I am low on time.
China breaks through the UK cyber defenses an launch a wave of Trojans with the Stuxnet leading the charge. The UK is now the *Great dark Spot* at night even more than NK. Factories have mobilization at a standstill along with no internet. China jams communications and radar China attacks Northern Ireland(pat that is owned by the UK) and conquers it rather easily. The Chinese airforce now with 1,000 attack The UK aircraft bomb them(mainly factories, airports and ports). Without radar FYI the battle is one sided for even if there were f-22 aircraft on the British side. To help, the Chinese fleet bombards the coastline 1 mile inwards. The don't bomb Scotland though. China gives the UK terms of surrender.
1. The UK will surrender
2. Scotland will gain its independence.
3. The UK will give Gibraltar to China.
4. China will help restore UK cyberspace
5. China will get 10 billion Euros from the UK
If you deny it The Chinese have just placed quite a few ballistic missiles pointed at most of the important British cities ready to fire.
alric8

Con

alric8 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Russia_The_almighty

Pro

I will make this quick and I am sad my opponent deactivated his account. He was good, he really was.

July 5 With the lack of response from the UK China raids London killing all their official. China declares ownership of Britain. Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland are given their independence. China strengthens ties with the US and secretly from a treaty to share the spoils in they attack North Korea to stop them from threatening South Korea and America. They plan to do it in a few years.

July 10 All territories Britain has , China now has control of everything Britain had besides Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland which immediately let Ireland annex them.

I win although I am sad.
alric8

Con

alric8 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Russia_The_almighty 2 years ago
Russia_The_almighty
Oh yeah forgot to put Japan in having a formidable cyber warfare.
Posted by greatkitteh 2 years ago
greatkitteh
I would say China is better than israrel in cyber warfare. Also, I dobout the UK can hold an cyber attack from china, considering north korea can pretty much hack the UK system. (they hacked Japan, a country with far better cyber defense (acutally one of the best))
Posted by Russia_The_almighty 2 years ago
Russia_The_almighty
1. The only way to shoot down satellites are with ASATs(short for anti-satelite missiles) or some anti-ballistic missiles. Place a reliable source in the comments to show if they have either because from my knowledge they have neither.
2. I know they have Eurofighters and that must be pretty cool for you to be sitting in one of the most advanced aircraft in the world(I need to find a f-18 super hornet and sit in the passenger seat now to make me feel better).
3. I attacked your fleet assuming they were in a defensive positions.
4. Do you seriously think, the Chinese navy and airforce is not going to be very close to UK mainland make sure no ships are being produced or getting out? NO! WHEN I said China was blockading them I meant a blockade that was tight since they already lost ships.
5. There is no possible way, UK cyberspace could break through Chinese cyberspace before China did themselves even with the filters. The only notable cyber attackers in the world are listed below
1. Israel and China basically tied
2.Russia
3. America
Israel can shut down EVERYTHING in the Middle East in a month(likely even less). If China can't break through UK cyberspace before the UK can that is unrealistic. Especially with China starting to attack a MONTH before you even mentioned the UK cyber attacking
6. What do you mean wars are beginning on the west coast? Portugal would not want war with anyone.
7. HOW on God's green Earth are you getting all these licences without paying a dime? Say nothing on paying for those licenses or all those licenses you got are VOID.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by greatkitteh 1 year ago
greatkitteh
Russia_The_almightyalric8Tied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.
Vote Placed by Dynasty2468 1 year ago
Dynasty2468
Russia_The_almightyalric8Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: FF