The Instigator
mintchocs
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
JustCallMeTarzan
Con (against)
Winning
22 Points

China is being raped by some Western countries - the Tibetian crisis.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/8/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,617 times Debate No: 3559
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (8)

 

mintchocs

Pro

Liberating Tibet - the "Free Tibet Campaign" - was a British introduced, propagandized project (in alliance to the CIA) aimed at the containment of the expanding, powerful China. European and Western countries became accustomed over centuries to easy pillaging of China over recent centuries, and miss the fun. They are scared of China overpowering them and so have to find ways to dismantle the Chinese provinces - they are raping China.

We believe that these Western powers should go back home and deal with internal affairs before contributing to international ones. They have no business in rousing Tibetian fervour especially if it is damaging to another country's stability - China. In the Tibetian crisis the western countries along with Tibet are taking advantage of the media spotlight on the Chinese Olympic games to appear as if in a plight or as if needing internional attention. This is an act of immorality and dissolution. The westerners should treat the host country with the same respect they had and should not lag and compromise the entire Chinese society by attempting to boycott the Olympic games.
JustCallMeTarzan

Con

This resolution represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the Tibetan Crisis. What I'm about to present is widely accepted and reported by the international community to be factual. First, a basic history and timeline is in order.

1927-1950: Civil war in China. Chinese Communist Party (CPC) comes to power after Mao's textbook-perfect insurgency.
1950: CPC invades Tibet to add it to the sphere of control of the CPC. CPC military outnumbers Tibetan army 8 to 1 and demands "Peaceful Liberation."
Mid 1950's: Beginnings of unrest in Tibetan Province result in redeployment of Chinese military forces to reinforce already-present CPC forces in the region. CPC threatens to bomb temples and kill Dalai Lama if revolts do not subside.
1959: Anti-Communist movement revolts in Lhasa, Tibet. Buddhust Dalai Lama leaves Tibet for India.
1959-1974: CIA helps fund and train Tibetan resistance to the CPC.
1960's-1970's: CPC forces destroy almost 6000 of the temples in the region, possibly because the PRC is officially atheist.
1979: Strict control of Tibet somewhat released and religion allowed to return, but only given that lamas do not oppose CPC, denounce the Dalai Lama, and remain in specific parts of Tibet.
1995: Dalai Lama names new Panchen Lama... PRC names a different child.
1997: Current Dalai Lama states that next Dalai Lama will not be from Chinese Control, but from the "free world."
2007: Current Dalai Lama states that next Dalai Lama may be democratically elected by the Tibetan people.

2008: Monks being peaceful demonstrations on 10 March and are arrested. By 14 March, violence breaks out across the region. CPC blocks media access to Tibet and access of Chinese to some websites as it strikes back against Tibet. Occupation force of some 4000 People's Armed Police arrive and remove media from Lhasa.

*****************************************

>>"Liberating Tibet - the "Free Tibet Campaign" - was a British introduced, propagandized project (in alliance to the CIA) aimed at the containment of the expanding, powerful China."

Incorrect. The Free Tibet Campaign is an attempt to address the fact that there is a civil rights issue in the Tibet Province. From their mission statement:

"Free Tibet Campaign stands for the Tibetans' right to determine their own future. It campaigns for an end to China's occupation of Tibet and for the Tibetans' fundamental human rights to be respected. Founded in 1987, Free Tibet Campaign generates active support by educating people about the situation in Tibet. It is independent of all governments and is funded by its members and supporters."

>>"European and Western countries became accustomed over centuries to easy pillaging of China over recent centuries, and miss the fun."

Funny story about how Japan has by far done the most pillaging of China over recent centuries, not to mention the CPC itself.

>>"They are scared of China overpowering them and so have to find ways to dismantle the Chinese provinces - they are raping China. "

The west is more concerned with China overpowering itself with ridiculous humanitarian plights and causing another civil war in the most populous country on the planet.

>>"They have no business in rousing Tibetian fervour especially if it is damaging to another country's stability - China. In the Tibetian crisis the western countries along with Tibet are taking advantage of the media spotlight on the Chinese Olympic games to appear as if in a plight or as if needing internional attention."

Tibet has historically been independent for almost two millennia. It is the Chinese that have roused the Tibetan fervor and damaged their own stability. The west has simply approved of the anti-communist actions of the Tibetan Resistance. The fact remains that Tibet is indeed in a plight, unless you do not count a 4000-strong occupation force in their capital city a "plight" and needing international attention.

>>"This is an act of immorality and dissolution."

Correct - China has violated the self-determination of a historically independent society. That is the immorality and dissolution.

>>"The westerners should treat the host country with the same respect they had and should not lag and compromise the entire Chinese society by attempting to boycott the Olympic games."

The host country of the Olympic games should not be creating humanitarian issues that violate the rights of their population. The compromise in Chinese society is the misimplemented ideals of communism that retard and pervade political and civil society.

***********************************************

All things said and done, the CPC has created the mess in Tibet through their violation of the self-determination of one of the world's oldest communities. Their expulsion of the media from Tibet gives even MORE weight to this crisis as a humanitarian issue.

China certainly COULD let Tibet become autonomous.
Why don't they? Because Tibet is part of China.
But who decided that?
The CPC.

In the end, the west is not raping China. China is raping itself.
Debate Round No. 1
mintchocs

Pro

mintchocs forfeited this round.
JustCallMeTarzan

Con

This round was intentionally left blank because my opponent has delivered no rebuttal at all. My points stand with no need for additional qualification.
Debate Round No. 2
mintchocs

Pro

mintchocs forfeited this round.
JustCallMeTarzan

Con

Again - no argument from the Pro... this is what we call a forfeit...

I need 100 characters to post this....
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
bliznik, I thought I told you to shut your mouth!!! What you think about anything is irrelevant.
Posted by bliznik 9 years ago
bliznik
WOW, that was pretty ignorant. If that is what you really think China is like, you kind of need to visit and talk to real Tibetan and Chinese citizens.

The fact that you actually think such views is just evidence that the anti-China propaganda machine of hatred is working just as it was designed to.

China has its issues. Oppression of free speech and torture of prisoners are definitely high on the list. But everything else that you stated was either a bald-faced lie, or a half-truth disguised as righteous anger.

(You might be talking about the irreversible damage "Chairman Mao" did to all of China during his brief stint? His actions were absolutely reprehensible and was basically a genocide of Tibetan Buddhists as we know it. But confusing Mao's policies with the present communist system is like confusing Clinton with Bush.)
Posted by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
bliznik, Suppose I am the ruler of you. You will now shut your mouth and anything you say you will be punished for. You will do what I say and live where I tell you to. You will work where I tell you to. You will give me money at my own discretion. But you are not being oppressed and if you so much as insinuate that you are, I will imprison maim or kill you.
Posted by bliznik 9 years ago
bliznik
(1) How exactly is China oppressing the Tibetan people?
(2) What "freedoms" is China attacking?

Let's see, before the Chinese police cracked down on the Tibetan riot, the only people who were being attacked were the Hans (what you would call the "native Chinese"). So, would it be the freedom to riot? The freedom to kill your fellow man? Before China took back Tibet, they took a way the "freedom" of the Tibetan monasteries to enslave the serfs and rape the villagers.

As far as I can tell, China is only oppressing free speech.

I think the biggest problem with this debate is the definition of "human rights" and "freedom." The West and the East define these terms in very, very different ways. For example, China believes that "human rights" is providing a country of opportunity and merit with a stable infrastructure and system of law that doesn't allow any person who breaks the law to go unpunished. For example, recently, a former mayor of Shanghai got sentenced for 18 years in prison for a white-collar crime (only about 15% of prisoners get parole, so this number is actually accurate). That would never happen in the United States.
Posted by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
Screw China and Tibet and any other country that oppresses it's population. We have our freedom. It is clear that in today's political environment that standing up for freedom for others makes you a terrorist and evil. Let them all rot in their oppression. It is now considered a war crime to free people living in tyranny by invading the country they live in to free them.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
"The Tibetan crisis is something that has been mismanaged by China, not a Western ploy to destroy China."

No, it's both.

There's obviously something that we're all missing. Political issues are never as cut and dry as they appear to civilians, not to mention foreigners who can really only make guesses through a biased media lens.

My guess is that there is some deeper, political scandal between China, Tibet, and some western powers, where the latter two have China by the throat. Of course, China is trying to resolve this issue as it tries to resolve every issue, by keeping it a secret. It's Chinese culture to save face, mind its own business, and expect others to do the same. Westerners just don't understand that principle because they are and always have been culturally intolerant.

The fact that it is hiding its actions has nothing to do with whether or not its actions are morally wrong. The Tibetans are just hiding under the veil of religious persecution as a way to draw attention and support, when they probably have some sort of underhanded scheme in play.

When I say the Tibetans, I don't mean the citizens. I'm fairly certain that the citizens of Tibet are suffering, but not from the hands of the Chinese. I think all the atrocities are orchestrated from within, and China is trying to stop it.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 9 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
I'm not about to contest that the West is worried about China's growing power. But then again, I never said that. I suppose what I said about concern for China overpowering itself could be construed as that, but I meant it as a response to mintchocs' claim that the west was dismantling china piece by piece. It's pretty clear that a stable China is in everyone's best interests.

As for Tibet historically, you can look up a list of the Tibetan Emperors from before the Mongols and Chinese took control in the 1230's about anywhere.

At the end of the day, the fact is that Tibet has been the loser over history, not China. I'm not contesting that horrible things have been done to China by colonial powers like England and Japan. Horrible things have been done in Tibet too, and that's why people are protesting the Olympics. It's pretty clear that moving the Olympics to Beijing was a political ploy. China should have been prepared for humanitarian protests, especially about Tibet. The Tibetan crisis is something that has been mismanaged by China, not a Western ploy to destroy China.
Posted by bliznik 9 years ago
bliznik
China COULD let Tibet become autonomous - Define "autonomous." Then define how China's not doing that. Have you even read the treaty that China and Tibet signed? China lets a lot of places retain a certain level of autonomy...take the new Hong Kong that was given back to China. China doesn't interfere there very much. As far as who decided that Tibet is part of China. You're right, the PRC did...and the Dali Lama. You really should consider his point of view as well, he IS a rather respected member of the Tibetan community.

SUMMARY - You want to debate human rights, let's debate human rights. You win, China loses, end of story. China doesn't respect human rights in the SLIGHTEST. They believe in the good of the majority, not the good of the minority. Which is, pretty f***ed up. But don't confuse human rights with Freeing Tibet. Freeing Tibet is a whole other ball game, and I'm afraid that there's much more historical evidence that backs up the fact that China has always owned Tibet than the anecdotes of people who said that "China didn't REALLY own Tibet, even if everyone said it did..."
Posted by bliznik 9 years ago
bliznik
West not concerned with China's growing power - WHAT?! Have you read any news articles in the last 10 years about China growing to be an important superpower?! Read the economist, or Wall Street, or the Financial Times. The West has been INCREDIBLY concerned about China usurping control. In fact, many theorized that Bush invaded Iraq b/c he was afraid of the new oil pipeline that China's building FROM TIBET (which, arguably, is probably why China built all the Tibetan infrastructure)

Tibet has been independent for over two millenea - Cite a book or two. Don't just state facts w/o doing any research. China's always pulled the strings in Tibet. The fact that some people wrote, "Oh, we made China THINK that they had control, but really...they didn't have control. Hee hee hee." doesn't make it more plausible than the friggin' political documents and treaties dating back 1000 years that Tibet has constantly signed acquiescing to China's ultimate decision in all political matters.

Immorality and Dissolution - You are correct, China ignored Tibet and allowed it to do it's own thing for 30 years, and then came back and took back their land. It was a mean thing to do. And once America gives back Texas to Mexico, the UK give back Ireland and Scotland, and Jews give back Israel, then we'll all have a happy world. On second thought, no. Let's deal with the present instead, and right now, China's made Tibet one of the most profitable provinces, has abolished slavery, has severely punished monks who raped townspeople, has doubled the life expectancy of Tibetans...etc.

Host country should not be creating humanitarian issues - Actually, no, the issues were always there. They've been there w/ China for 2000 years. They have a pretty strict policy. You break the law, you lose ALL human rights and you get tortured and beaten. China doesn't get many repeat offenders. It's only recently that people have started complaining.
Posted by bliznik 9 years ago
bliznik
Since mintchocs is not responding, I will respond.

First, the basic history is missing about 1000 years.

1271-1903) - Tibet part of China (Yuan Dynasty, Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty)
1904 - British massacred Tibetans and forced Dali Lama to flee, then signed a unilateral treaty claiming that Tibet now belonged to Britain.
1906 - Britain then signed a treaty with CHINA (since, y'know, everyone knew that CHINA owned Tibet) and China gave Britain some limited rights to trade and whatnot.
1912 - Dali Lama returned to Tibet
1913-1914 - Various Tibettans tried to declare Tibettan independance. China keeps fighting to retain sovereignty.
1915 - WWI. All hell breaks loose. China has to protect its own borders and withdraws troops. During this time, Tibet claims that it's now independent.

1950 - After China finally heals after being raped from all sides by Britain and Japan (Japan raped China's people, Britain raped China's resources...the British Museum to this day has better historical artifacts than ANY of China's musuems), China took back Tibet and abolished slavery, built schools, built roads, etc.

You also skip the whole business about the current Dali Lama agreeing that China owns Tibet. All the current Dali Lama wants China to do is honor its 1950 treaty to let the Tibetans have an autonomous government within the Chinese government.

Now we can actually attack your arguments:

Free Tibet Campaign Origins - Nobody knows. You can't use the Free Tibet Campaign mission statement to truthfully state what the heck they do. That would be like relying on Fox News telling you that they are Fair and Biased. Maybe they're w/ the CIA, but I doubt we'll find evidence of that.

Japan and CPC have taken more from China than Western Countries - Erm...what has Japan and the CPC actually taken from China?
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